trmoore54 Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 Anyone need a VF/NM Hulk 1 (slight trim on 4 sides)? I had a related thought in the last 24 hours..."Gee, if we can just figure out a way to trim the 4th side...? Not trying to put any devious thoughts in anyone's mind but I'm sure it's crossed someone's mind to trim the spine and leaf-cast the covers...add new staples...voila... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wombat Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 9.8 restored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01TheDude Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 these trimmed books shouldn't get a grade at all-- or at best they should get labelled as NGT - No Grade- Trimmed the grading companies can verify that the book itself is authentic but altered. And these books should be seen as sub standard. IF they were to do this, perhaps the instances of trimming and color touching that seem to be increasing with some less than upstanding people would lessen. I see this as destroying a book-- not saving or improving it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kav Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Nice comic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCheli Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 these trimmed books shouldn't get a grade at all-- or at best they should get labelled as NGT - No Grade- Trimmed the grading companies can verify that the book itself is authentic but altered. And these books should be seen as sub standard. IF they were to do this, perhaps the instances of trimming and color touching that seem to be increasing with some less than upstanding people would lessen. I see this as destroying a book-- not saving or improving it. I agree with you completely, but I think we're too far gone to reverse course. It may have been different if the company who shall not be named had come out with a different grading system for trimmed books, but they stayed the course. Trimming is the absolute worst. At a recent show, a guy was trying to sell a Tales to Astonish #35 that was trimmed. He wanted $250 for it. (The same book, I presume, was listed on GPA as being sold for $175 in 2013.) He talked himself down to $150 cash/trade, and I just couldn't pull the trigger, because I loathe trimmed books that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revat Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I despise trimming, but there has to be some onus on the buyer to read the description if they're spending that much money. He says there's color touch, he's says there's trimming. Is he doing the bare minimum to swim in a dirty pool, absolutely. Is it gross? yes. Is it illegal or deceptive to the point of fraud? I'm just not sure. This is the guy who tells a girl up front he's not ready for a relationship, but pursues her heavily. She falls for him after a while, then finds out he's still seeing other girls, then he says "Hey, I told you I can't be exclusive." This guy is an epic d-bag, but not a cheater. And he DID warn her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trmoore54 Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 I despise trimming, but there has to be some onus on the buyer to read the description if they're spending that much money. He says there's color touch, he's says there's trimming. Is he doing the bare minimum to swim in a dirty pool, absolutely. Is it gross? yes. Is it illegal or deceptive to the point of fraud? I'm just not sure. This is the guy who tells a girl up front he's not ready for a relationship, but pursues her heavily. She falls for him after a while, then finds out he's still seeing other girls, then he says "Hey, I told you I can't be exclusive." This guy is an epic d-bag, but not a cheater. And he DID warn her. He may not be a cheater...but he's an over-the-top book-ruiner! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEAUMONTS Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 all grading company allegiance aside, it's a good thing to have a thread like this. if only one potential buyer, newb or not, sees it and doesn't buy one of these hackjobs, then purpose served. (thumbs u +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divad Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 9.8 restored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakman29 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I think you are getting pushback because all of these grading companies handle trimming the same way, with no penalty in grade. CGC is no shining star there; they would likely give it a 9.4 as well. Bingo. Personally, I don't agree with any of the companies giving an apparent grade that high on a book that has been trimmed. I'd like to see a max grade cap that a book can receive if it's been trimmed. It might help discourage the practice. 1950's comment was, IMO, ridiculous because he was challenging the integrity of one company while singing the praise of another when they both do exactly the same thing. They should give any trimmed book an apparent .5 IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttfitz Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I think you are getting pushback because all of these grading companies handle trimming the same way, with no penalty in grade. CGC is no shining star there; they would likely give it a 9.4 as well. Bingo. Personally, I don't agree with any of the companies giving an apparent grade that high on a book that has been trimmed. I'd like to see a max grade cap that a book can receive if it's been trimmed. It might help discourage the practice. 1950's comment was, IMO, ridiculous because he was challenging the integrity of one company while singing the praise of another when they both do exactly the same thing. They should give any trimmed book an apparent .5 IMO I get where you guys with your caps - or straight out bottom level grade - are coming from, I really do, but I think you are losing sight of what a grading company is selling: Information. The entire reason they are in business is to provide collectors with a 3rd party opinion on what the condition of the book is, and the entire reason the restored book label with it's "apparent grade" is to tell what condition the book looks like AND what was done to it to make it look that way. Remove the graded part - or even cap it - and you have removed half or more of the information that the submitter is paying for. And you are introducing more reasons for a submitter to not want to submit a book he thinks might have been tampered with, and where are you then? I also think folks sometimes forget how much stuff that is now viewed as "restoration" was once common practice, not (just?) to deceive but to honestly try and make a book better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakman29 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I think you are getting pushback because all of these grading companies handle trimming the same way, with no penalty in grade. CGC is no shining star there; they would likely give it a 9.4 as well. Bingo. Personally, I don't agree with any of the companies giving an apparent grade that high on a book that has been trimmed. I'd like to see a max grade cap that a book can receive if it's been trimmed. It might help discourage the practice. 1950's comment was, IMO, ridiculous because he was challenging the integrity of one company while singing the praise of another when they both do exactly the same thing. They should give any trimmed book an apparent .5 IMO I get where you guys with your caps - or straight out bottom level grade - are coming from, I really do, but I think you are losing sight of what a grading company is selling: Information. The entire reason they are in business is to provide collectors with a 3rd party opinion on what the condition of the book is, and the entire reason the restored book label with it's "apparent grade" is to tell what condition the book looks like AND what was done to it to make it look that way. Remove the graded part - or even cap it - and you have removed half or more of the information that the submitter is paying for. And you are introducing more reasons for a submitter to not want to submit a book he thinks might have been tampered with, and where are you then? I also think folks sometimes forget how much stuff that is now viewed as "restoration" was once common practice, not (just?) to deceive but to honestly try and make a book better. Are you for real? Do you think the seller isn't trying to decieve? Trimmed books should be thrown in the trash,it's no good anymore. It has been destroyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quicksilver Signs Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I think you are getting pushback because all of these grading companies handle trimming the same way, with no penalty in grade. CGC is no shining star there; they would likely give it a 9.4 as well. Bingo. Personally, I don't agree with any of the companies giving an apparent grade that high on a book that has been trimmed. I'd like to see a max grade cap that a book can receive if it's been trimmed. It might help discourage the practice. 1950's comment was, IMO, ridiculous because he was challenging the integrity of one company while singing the praise of another when they both do exactly the same thing. They should give any trimmed book an apparent .5 IMO I get where you guys with your caps - or straight out bottom level grade - are coming from, I really do, but I think you are losing sight of what a grading company is selling: Information. The entire reason they are in business is to provide collectors with a 3rd party opinion on what the condition of the book is, and the entire reason the restored book label with it's "apparent grade" is to tell what condition the book looks like AND what was done to it to make it look that way. Remove the graded part - or even cap it - and you have removed half or more of the information that the submitter is paying for. And you are introducing more reasons for a submitter to not want to submit a book he thinks might have been tampered with, and where are you then? I also think folks sometimes forget how much stuff that is now viewed as "restoration" was once common practice, not (just?) to deceive but to honestly try and make a book better. Are you for real? Do you think the seller isn't trying to decieve? Trimmed books should be thrown in the trash,it's no good anymore. It has been destroyed. I'd be the first one digging in the trash for trimmed Hulk 1's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01TheDude Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 my main concern is trying to get people to stop doing this stuff (mostly the trimming and to a lesser extent the amateur color touch and other "fixes"). If it is your book and you do it for your own reasons-- fine. Just be honest about it if you later sell the item. I was thinking if they could attach that type of notice on the grade that it might discourage the abhorrent trimming this guy does but honestly I doubt this guy will ever wise up and stop doing this stuff. So glad I avoided buying a few books from him early on-- I agree that it is on the buyer to inspect the ad and pictures. I always do and there are enough sample pictures out there of untouched books to detect trimming issues typically unless it was extremely minor trimming. But this guy is trimming everything-- all three sides? that is just out of control. The sad part s you could block his account from yours but it won't stop him from buying the book with a different account. the whole situation just sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the blob Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) I think you are getting pushback because all of these grading companies handle trimming the same way, with no penalty in grade. CGC is no shining star there; they would likely give it a 9.4 as well. Bingo. Personally, I don't agree with any of the companies giving an apparent grade that high on a book that has been trimmed. I'd like to see a max grade cap that a book can receive if it's been trimmed. It might help discourage the practice. 1950's comment was, IMO, ridiculous because he was challenging the integrity of one company while singing the praise of another when they both do exactly the same thing. They should give any trimmed book an apparent .5 IMO I get where you guys with your caps - or straight out bottom level grade - are coming from, I really do, but I think you are losing sight of what a grading company is selling: Information. The entire reason they are in business is to provide collectors with a 3rd party opinion on what the condition of the book is, and the entire reason the restored book label with it's "apparent grade" is to tell what condition the book looks like AND what was done to it to make it look that way. Remove the graded part - or even cap it - and you have removed half or more of the information that the submitter is paying for. And you are introducing more reasons for a submitter to not want to submit a book he thinks might have been tampered with, and where are you then? I also think folks sometimes forget how much stuff that is now viewed as "restoration" was once common practice, not (just?) to deceive but to honestly try and make a book better. 5% of the cover and pages are missing after that trim job. How many points off would a book get if a corner amounting to 5% of the cover and pages was missing? How many points off would a book get if, rather than CT meant to cover up and deceive, the same amount of ink was smudged on the book randomly? At least with a tear seal you can say "what would the grade be with the tear?" and justify it like that, as a well done, nonobtrusive tear seal may prevent the tear from getting larger. I can't think of a hobby/collectible where removing non-rotting portions of the item would get a certified "high grade." vintage posters have torn up edges all the time. the conservation solution is the seal and repair those tears. not trim off the border of the poster, although they do put a linnen backing on the back of the poster, which i guess is like reinforcing a fragile cover. Here's from a poster restoration company: "Trimming the Poster for framing: The linen part of the lined mounted poster can be trimmed, no problem, the less you trim it, the better. It's best not to trim right to edge of poster. (NOTE: no cutting of or near the actual paper poster border, of course!). Do not have the framer glue adhere the actual linen to anything, as in heat seal it to a piece of foam core or to any surface. Have the framer heavily hinge the piece on the top to hold it in place. They will know this process." Edited February 12, 2015 by the blob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul747 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) One might be able to work the margins with some of these books, trimming a restored 2.0 and calling it a restored mid-grade, etc., but I don't see it as a very viable business model. Looking at the guys feedback, he sells a lot of books he claims as unrestored, so he's probably not chopping the hell out of everything. I don't see how he makes money on that GL. if he really want to profit from sleazy business practices he should just keep the hard to judge pictures and give inflated grades. I agree with the cap on grading for trimmed books ! they should never be NM+ purple Label or not. That's just off by both companies. As for this clown crook, the books he sells as unrestored, he is probably just popping out of lower grade slabs and upping the grade. I really can't believe all the sales and bids he has? Who is purchasing these books ? Edited February 13, 2015 by paul747 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazyboy Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Trimmed books should be thrown in the trash,it's no good anymore. It has been destroyed. Oak, it's not good when you're in the running for most ridiculous post in a thread that contains a post from 1950's war comics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjpb Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 these trimmed books shouldn't get a grade at all-- or at best they should get labelled as NGT - No Grade- Trimmed the grading companies can verify that the book itself is authentic but altered. And these books should be seen as sub standard. IF they were to do this, perhaps the instances of trimming and color touching that seem to be increasing with some less than upstanding people would lessen. I see this as destroying a book-- not saving or improving it. I wouldn't go this far, but I would agree that trimming does not "improve" a book, and in no way should a book be rewarded with a higher "apparent" grade because rough edges have been shorn off. Not all trimming is equal in it's destruction, a barely perceptible micro-trim is meant to deceive, but can leave as much book as a factory trim if it's from an era where dimensional quality control was barely existent, conversely bound copies can look positively butchered although the trimming had no deception behind it. I'm all for grade limits and deductions, and perhaps trimmed books should get a qualified grade as well, as trimming is neither restoration nor conservation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moondog Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Grading companies shouldn't be handing out 9.4s to trimmed books, regardless of the label color. The book hasn't been restored, it's been doctored. They should treat all trimmed edges as if the missing edge had been chipped, torn, stained or otherwise damaged, so depending on the size of the trim, 7.0 would probably be about as good as it gets, and for a book like that X-Men #1 where it looks like at least an 1/8th of an inch was taken off all sides, a 5.0 at best. The GL is now an apparent 2.0. This has always been my biggest problem with CGC (and now CBCS). Similarly to some trading card companies - give trimmed books a "Authentic" grade and note the book as trimmed. That 9.4 is REALLY BIG in the corner... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttfitz Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I think you are getting pushback because all of these grading companies handle trimming the same way, with no penalty in grade. CGC is no shining star there; they would likely give it a 9.4 as well. Bingo. Personally, I don't agree with any of the companies giving an apparent grade that high on a book that has been trimmed. I'd like to see a max grade cap that a book can receive if it's been trimmed. It might help discourage the practice. 1950's comment was, IMO, ridiculous because he was challenging the integrity of one company while singing the praise of another when they both do exactly the same thing. They should give any trimmed book an apparent .5 IMO I get where you guys with your caps - or straight out bottom level grade - are coming from, I really do, but I think you are losing sight of what a grading company is selling: Information. The entire reason they are in business is to provide collectors with a 3rd party opinion on what the condition of the book is, and the entire reason the restored book label with it's "apparent grade" is to tell what condition the book looks like AND what was done to it to make it look that way. Remove the graded part - or even cap it - and you have removed half or more of the information that the submitter is paying for. And you are introducing more reasons for a submitter to not want to submit a book he thinks might have been tampered with, and where are you then? I also think folks sometimes forget how much stuff that is now viewed as "restoration" was once common practice, not (just?) to deceive but to honestly try and make a book better. Are you for real? Do you think the seller isn't trying to decieve? Trimmed books should be thrown in the trash,it's no good anymore. It has been destroyed. If you can show me where I said that this seller wasn't trying to deceive, I will apologize profusely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
