SquareChaos Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I guess I'll ask... everyone is up in arms about this, and rightly so - some of the images of these books is distressing - but if the industry decided to deduct huge points on the grading scale when they detect a trim, what about other modifications? Is color touch open to this new scale? What about glue or tape? Or do many of you just feel so strongly about trimming because it takes away from what was originally there? I could understand that, but I still think it would be inconsistent. On the other side of this.. there are a good number of people out there collecting purples - I have to wonder how they feel about this sort of talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Point Five Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I guess I'll ask... everyone is up in arms about this, and rightly so - some of the images of these books is distressing - but if the industry decided to deduct huge points on the grading scale when they detect a trim, what about other modifications? Is color touch open to this new scale? What about glue or tape? Or do many of you just feel so strongly about trimming because it takes away from what was originally there? I could understand that, but I still think it would be inconsistent. On the other side of this.. there are a good number of people out there collecting purples - I have to wonder how they feel about this sort of talk. That's fair. I think people feel so strongly because this is the perfect storm of 'some insufficiently_thoughtful_person out there who is actively trimming nice books RIGHT NOW', and 'literally the worst trim jobs anyone has ever seen at any time anywhere'. There is some precedent here though. After years of complaining and pressure, CGC ended up changing their stance on tape so that books were not given grade bumps for having the spines taped up. It would be ideal if the same thing happened with extreme trim jobs like these, closing the current grading company loophole (where no matter how much material is hacked off a book, it can still show up in a slab with a 9.4 in the upper left). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kav Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Just grade the book then subtract an automatic 3 for the trimming to discourage trimming yep you might get a book with a negative grade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spidey-fan73 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 All things hacked. Squarecross... you can undo most restoration to a book, you can't undo destruction. Travesty to the books and the collectors who would have been happy with them un-hacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttfitz Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I guess I'll ask... everyone is up in arms about this, and rightly so - some of the images of these books is distressing - but if the industry decided to deduct huge points on the grading scale when they detect a trim, what about other modifications? Is color touch open to this new scale? What about glue or tape? Or do many of you just feel so strongly about trimming because it takes away from what was originally there? I could understand that, but I still think it would be inconsistent. On the other side of this.. there are a good number of people out there collecting purples - I have to wonder how they feel about this sort of talk. That's fair. I think people feel so strongly because this is the perfect storm of 'some insufficiently_thoughtful_person out there who is actively trimming nice books RIGHT NOW', and 'literally the worst trim jobs anyone has ever seen at any time anywhere'. There is some precedent here though. After years of complaining and pressure, CGC ended up changing their stance on tape so that books were not given grade bumps for having the spines taped up. It would be ideal if the same thing happened with extreme trim jobs like these, closing the current grading company loophole (where no matter how much material is hacked off a book, it can still show up in a slab with a 9.4 in the upper left). Yeah, in extreme cases, that would probably be good, although the difficulty comes in deciding just how much is extreme. These are pretty clear, others might not be so. At the very least, more notation than just "trimmed on 3 sides" ("Trimmed so much it's now a mini-comic") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquareChaos Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I guess the real thrust of my question is... where does it end once it starts? I'm not making a slippery slope argument, I'm seriously asking how the subjectivity will be reigned in, not just for trims, but for every other form of modification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unca Ben Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 "Buy the book (or what's left of it), not the grade." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Point Five Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I guess the real thrust of my question is... where does it end once it starts? I'm not making a slippery slope argument, I'm seriously asking how the subjectivity will be reigned in, not just for trims, but for every other form of modification. I guess people react strongly to trimming (vs color touch, etc) since you are literally removing pieces of the book. In a hypothetical revised grading system, massively trimmed books like these could reasonably plunge in grade because so much 'real estate' is missing ... just like a clipped coupon on a back cover sinks a book's grade right now. Whereas, say, a book which has barely noticeable overhang trim on one edge would not drop as much in grade (though it too would still have 'trimmed' on the label), because less paper is missing. Maybe a pipe dream, but it does seem logical to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquareChaos Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 The idea sounds like a good one to me as well, but the devil is in the details. I think it could open a real can of worms considering all of the PLODs already out there. I really doubt CGC will do anything, and if they were going to do it, the new guys missed the boat too considering they had the perfectly opportunity of starting fresh. I would personally like to see these type of trims marked as incomplete - that makes the most sense to me, but again, where do you draw the line between 'trimmed' and 'incomplete / trimmed'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cephusdog Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I think a new label color should be created to properly separate trimming from restoration. Trimming is not restoration, it is destruction. How about a nice nice pink label highlighting a trimmed designation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poe Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 So a book with a piece out of the cover will grade lower than a book that has an entire side cut off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vexsus Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I think there is no doubt that "restoration" of this nature is more harm than good. It is not aiming to preserve the comic, merely emulate a false grade bump for a cash grab. Im not sure this is the thread to ask such a question but I feel true, professional grade conservation should not be frowned upon. For example, a book with a poor spine being restored to readability instead of having a very good chance of detaching I dont think should be seen as detrimental to value when it is in fact preserving a key factor of a comic. Of course readability doesnt matter to a slabbed book, but if your desire is to keep it raw, shouldn't preserving a books integrity be praised, not frowned on? Regardless what these people are doing is selfish destruction and a lack of respect for these historical objects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divad Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Well, I suppose we could always trim a finger off the submitter . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjpb Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I guess I'll ask... everyone is up in arms about this, and rightly so - some of the images of these books is distressing - but if the industry decided to deduct huge points on the grading scale when they detect a trim, what about other modifications? Is color touch open to this new scale? What about glue or tape? Or do many of you just feel so strongly about trimming because it takes away from what was originally there? I could understand that, but I still think it would be inconsistent. On the other side of this.. there are a good number of people out there collecting purples - I have to wonder how they feel about this sort of talk. I buy "restored" books, sometimes to keep, sometimes to flip. I have no problem deducting points for trimming, as it is destructive not restorative. I feel the same way about poorly done color touch, but at least the argument can be made that CT in general is meant to restore the appearance of a book without losing some of it, and frequently I find books that have CT "scraped" to be less appealing than if they had been left alone. Personally, I treat tape harder than glue when buying or grading a book, but others may differ. When CGC changed its policy on tape, it jeopardized the grade upon resubmit of some existing slabs, so I don't see a problem if that happens to trimmed books. Generally the market resistance to trimming is stronger than other forms of resto anyway, so perhaps lower grades on books that "appear" higher grade if trimming is ignored might actually make buyers more comfortable with buying trimmed books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the blob Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I think a new label color should be created to properly separate trimming from restoration. Trimming is not restoration, it is destruction. How about a nice nice pink label highlighting a trimmed designation? sh**t brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoomMember Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 this seller added an X-Men #4 9.0 [with all the trimmings!] to the mix. not a HUGE thing...but, how many of those will the average ebayer not see? not many in that grade. [thanks 'grade X service'!] how big will this 'lesser book' go to further the criminal fund??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverAgeDreams Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Thanks , blocked .... unreal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trmoore54 Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 I get the vitriol aimed at trimmed books. But I wouldn't go so far as Oakman's suggestion they categorically should be tossed...pretty sure he's resorted to hyperbole there...I think... It stems primarily (as in all_things_comics' intent) to deceive for one's personal gain at the expense/loss of another. The by-product is a book that has been altered in a largely unacceptable manner by the collective collecting community...if not outright ruined. I would never condone the trimming of a book to enhance its appearance/(value?). Granted, there may be many books with amateur trimming where a young naïve collector was trying to improve their book with nothing else in mind...but again, I think we are largely talking about trimming to deceive for the purposes of this discussion. (Another somewhat funny related discussion would be it could be argued that a young collector who had cut a coupon out of a book had similarly destroyed the book with a level of alteration that is more destructive than trimming. And ironic that that was the maker of the comic, or certainly the purchaser of the ad's intent...for the kid to use the coupon. It's an interesting observation, as it moves the discussion back to one of pure collecting and love of comics as opposed to treating them as some commodity with hopes for economic gain.) But I digress. I've owned some nice looking trimmed books (bought with full disclosure, either raw or slabbed) that for me were ways of filling a hole in my set until I could afford an unrestored book. I'm down to one trimmed book in my collection these days...my ASM 1 with top and right edge trimmed (9.0). But the overall rest of the book is so nice and the color strike so awesome, I'm fine with it. And it's the only sensible way for me to own a 9.0 copy in my set that I am willing to afford. Back to the level of trimming and grading...I do believe that if a trim job were to go beyond a certain level, such as the ATC books, that it should have a grade cap. Maybe not 0.5 but somewhere below 4.0 or so...and if art or dialogue were removed, I'd be inclined to denote the book as Qualified and Incomplete. CGC and CGBS should adopt a standard that if a book is trimmed beyond say 1/16-inch that it cannot exceed a given grade. Let everyone KNOW THAT and it could well help abate this abhorrent level of trimming for profit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaylam Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Hmmmm, I kind of like what Green Arrow says about all of this...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjpb Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 While I'll advocate for tougher standards in regards to trimming from CGC and the like, it does nothing to dissuade the sellers like this one who mostly just list the stuff raw with vague "mid-grade" and "high grade" descriptions. Unfortunately, it will the take continuous and vigorous education of the comic buying public to even have a chance of making this sort of thing unprofitable enough for people to stop doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
