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SPIDER-MAN: HOMECOMING starring Tom Holland (7/28/17)
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Started by Bosco685,

1,648 posts in this topic

Artboy99

Artboy99

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, fantastic_four said:

NONE of those were "change for the sake of change," they were change for the sake of what they thought would increase appeal for a younger audience.  So the whole MJ/Michelle thing isn't making sense either way.

Your opinion but that is perfectly ok by me.

Ned Leeds doesn't have to be a goofy chubby Asian guy to appeal to a younger audience. Flash Thompson could very easily have still been the jock bully and appealed to a younger audience who would have identified with that as bullying exists in schools today in various forms. The race of the characters was changed to ensure all demographics are included.

"MJ" was supposed to be Mary Jane Watson, and no amount of Feige back peddling after the release of the movie will change my opinion on that.

Edited by Artboy99
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F For Fake

F For Fake

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Posted

I have no problem at all with the races/ages/genders of the characters being changed. Makes no difference to me at all. But the whole "MJ" thing really does smell like a backpedal. Just own it! Who cares?

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Artboy99

Artboy99

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, F For Fake said:

I have no problem at all with the races/ages/genders of the characters being changed. Makes no difference to me at all. But the whole "MJ" thing really does smell like a backpedal. Just own it! Who cares?

I agree.

there is some reason for it that has not been made public. My guess is it is likely regarding money or some scheduling conflict or something like that which will prohibit Zendaya from continuing the role.

Edited by Artboy99
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drotto

drotto

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, F For Fake said:

I have no problem at all with the races/ages/genders of the characters being changed. Makes no difference to me at all. But the whole "MJ" thing really does smell like a backpedal. Just own it! Who cares?

There is zero reason to have her say those initials if she was not intended to be a Mary Jane replacement if not Mary Jane.  I also agree that the race swapping is a big who cares.  

Edited by drotto
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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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Posted

The original Batman movies sold a lot of tickets and sold a lot of merchandise. A LOT of toys. But when they rebooted it in 2005, they went back to the roots of the character. And they made it one of the most successful movie franchises ever.

But... the merchandising suffered. It's hard to sell that Batman to kids.

Marvel chose to ignore the roots of Spider-man and instead go for a more family friendly Spidey. There's a lot more money to be made in toys, than in movies, I guess. 

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piper

piper

Posted
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2 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

The original Batman movies sold a lot of tickets and sold a lot of merchandise. A LOT of toys. But when they rebooted it in 2005, they went back to the roots of the character. And they made it one of the most successful movie franchises ever.

But... the merchandising suffered. It's hard to sell that Batman to kids.

Marvel chose to ignore the roots of Spider-man and instead go for a more family friendly Spidey. There's a lot more money to be made in toys, than in movies, I guess. 

It's actually quite close in resemblance to the Ultimate Spider-Man storyline.

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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5 hours ago, Straw-Man said:

chuck, looks like that "lucky" opening weekend multiple, as well as the "major resurgence" for 300MM is gonna happen.   you didn't have any bets out on either, did you?

No, it appears as though it'll make it to $300 Million. A good showing. But not necessarily for the 'jewel in the crown' of Marvel Comics. It's not Batman numbers. Right now it's pushing to get past 'Man of Steel' numbers. 

For the top selling property of the biggest comic book publisher in the U.S., it's strange that it just doesn't compete with DC's number one brand, when it comes to movies. THIS has been my point.

If it hadn't reached $300 Million (and let's face it, a non-competative schedule is going to help it), that would've been an even bigger disappointment.

But just the fact that it's going to get thumped by both Wonder Woman (that everyone says is an anomaly), AND GOTG2 (a SEQUEL that's outperforming the FIRST movie), just seems strange to me, for Marvel's biggest franchise. Heck even Iron Man 3 (THREE!) broke $400 Million

Can it do $325M and match Suicide Squad numbers? Who'd have thought that? Would anyone here have bet that Spider-man could be outperformed by Suicide Squad? I'm sure there'll be those who say yes, but...2 years ago, I never would've believed it could be so close.

And Deadpool? Will SMH make $363 Million. VERY doubtful. Again surprising.

People want to say Spider-man fatigue, but what about Logan fatigue? This latest movie was his 3rd solo movie and EIGHTH movie featuring him, yet, it was his #1 highest grossing solo movie and #4 highest grossing X-Men connected movie. Where's the fatigue there?

Even if this Spider-man movie does another $30 Million, it still will only rank above the last two ASM duds. (And still put it far behind the 4 movies ahead of it for all time top opening weekends in July).

I still can't figure out a reason why, other than I just don't think it was a good enough movie.

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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28 minutes ago, ChrisInBaltimore said:

So you don't like Ultimate Spider-Man?

If you enjoyed it, that's great. It's well done. I'm not looking to slay anyone's sacred cow.

I just found it to be unnecessary. A gimmick. A way to do shocking storylines that would not alter the actual franchise. An imaginary story of an imaginary story. 

Me personally, I don't need a reimagining of the already best storyline in the history of comics. That's just me.

The guy who runs around screaming that Leonardo DiCaprio's 'Romeo and Juliet' movie  is the greatest thing ever, would be seen as goofy.  In comics, I guess it's ok.

I see FF 1-55 and ASM 1-34 as the historical literary giants of this hobby. That kids can't read them, because they don't understand the context and time period in which they are written, mirrors most students disdain for Shakespeare. I think the understanding of that material is important.

But hey, to a PUBLISHER, the most important thing is to repackage the crack and sell it, not to create art, so have at it.

 

 

 

 

 

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ChrisInBaltimore

ChrisInBaltimore

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37 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

If you enjoyed it, that's great. It's well done. I'm not looking to slay anyone's sacred cow.

I just found it to be unnecessary. A gimmick. A way to do shocking storylines that would not alter the actual franchise. An imaginary story of an imaginary story. 

Me personally, I don't need a reimagining of the already best storyline in the history of comics. That's just me.

The guy who runs around screaming that Leonardo DiCaprio's 'Romeo and Juliet' movie  is the greatest thing ever, would be seen as goofy.  In comics, I guess it's ok.

I see FF 1-55 and ASM 1-34 as the historical literary giants of this hobby. That kids can't read them, because they don't understand the context and time period in which they are written, mirrors most students disdain for Shakespeare. I think the understanding of that material is important.

But hey, to a PUBLISHER, the most important thing is to repackage the crack and sell it, not to create art, so have at it.

Obviously I've read both AF 15 and ASM 1- now and all of USM. I agree that the ASM stuff is probably the pinnacle of our hobby. 

Having said that, I think modernizing stories is important. If you look at almost all literature that has lasted, much of it has been modernized and/or translated differently to reach the new generation. Very few people read something like Beowulf or Chaucer how it was originally written. Heck even No Fear has become a great tool for reaching the next generation. 

I'd also add, I think DiCaprio's R&J is one of the greatest things ever. Having taught both Othello and R&J in the classroom, I can tell you that I had the richest discussions and most eyes on me teaching those texts. Yes we read the original, but we read scenes in the No Fear book and we watched clips. All those things help bring it to life. Sure I could have picked up the Branagh versions of the plays, but the DiCaprio R&J is just incredible. The beginning of the movie just captivates all the kids. I can do it line by line when watching that film... "Do you bite your thumb at me..." God it's truly great. 

USM did a great job modernizing the character. From personal experience, I've handed the Lee/Ditko run remastered to several kids. It usually goes unread. The minute I hand them the USM, they just can't put it down. Like you said, it's important a book captures the time period. USM reflects today's time period very well, but it also sticks to the essence of the character in a way that works so well. I re-read the start to Lee/Ditko's run all the time, but the minute I pick up USM again I'm just hooked. 

I think that is what SMH strength is. Like you, when my friends ask what I thought of the movie I tell them "It was fun." But I also tell them "My kids loved it." I think that's the strength of the film and this relaunch. I do think it had issues keeping the essence of the character as strong as I would have liked, but it still modernized the story very well. 

Just my 2c 

Edited by ChrisInBaltimore
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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ChrisInBaltimore said:

Obviously I've read both AF 15 and ASM 1- now and all of USM. I agree that the ASM stuff is probably the pinnacle of our hobby. 

Having said that, I think modernizing stories is important. If you look at almost all literature that has lasted, much of it has been modernized and/or translated differently to reach the new generation. Very few people read something like Beowulf or Chaucer how it was originally written. Heck even No Fear has become a great tool for reaching the next generation. 

I'd also add, I think DiCaprio's R&J is one of the greatest things ever. Having taught both Othello and R&J in the classroom, I can tell you that I had the richest discussions and most eyes on me teaching those texts. Yes we read the original, but we read scenes in the No Fear book and we watched clips. All those things help bring it to life. Sure I could have picked up the Branagh versions of the plays, but the DiCaprio R&J is just incredible. The beginning of the movie just captivates all the kids. I can do it line by line when watching that film... "Do you bite your thumb at me..." God it's truly great. 

USM did a great job modernizing the character. From personal experience, I've handed the Lee/Ditko run remastered to several kids. It usually goes unread. The minute I hand them the USM, they just can't put it down. Like you said, it's important a book captures the time period. USM reflects today's time period very well, but it also sticks to the essence of the character in a way that works so well. I re-read the start to Lee/Ditko's run all the time, but the minute I pick up USM again I'm just hooked. 

I think that is what SMH strength is. Like you, when my friends ask what I thought of the movie I tell them "It was fun." But I also tell them "My kids loved it." I think that's the strength of the film and this relaunch. I do think it had issues keeping the essence of the character as strong as I would have liked, but it still modernized the story very well. 

Just my 2c 

Hey, if it helps the kids discover the original material, more power to it.

I just think, from an artistic standpoint,  it's another way to push the emphasis away from originality and more toward the commercialization and unit shifting of ideas. Cake tastes good, but if you eat it for every meal the results are not.

Mainstream comics are boring to me, because I KNOW, nothing is going to happen in Spider-man's world that stays that way. Mary Jane will always be 'safe' now. They MAY kill her, as a gimmick, to sell some comics, but she'll be back and integrated into the world of Spider-man just as she always was at some point. There's no real drama there.

This is the kind of thing that has pushed me away from mainstream comics and into the independents... as far back was when I was 14 and picked up Heavy Metal #1 off the grocery store magazine rack. I read Moebius' Arzach, a story with no words, and I would never see comics the same again. It saved me from giving up on comics completely. A little less than two years earlier, I was so let down and annoyed with the ending to the 'clone saga' (ASM 149 - which of course didn't turn out to be the end at all), that I had lost interest in comics - I'd held on another year maybe, thanks to Starlin's Warlock and Perez on the Avengers, but.... I just thought most of it was garbage.

I understand people's interest in it - if you haven't read the same basic idea 1000 times, it seems fun at first, and colorful and full of emotion and suspense. I just personally find more interesting and challenging comics in independents and manga.

Instead of the same old regurgitated characters and ideas.

Edited by Chuck Gower
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ChrisInBaltimore

ChrisInBaltimore

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I don't disagree with you at all. Heck everyone kept saying how new and fresh Superior Spider-Man was at the time. A villain taking over a hero was such a novel idea. Didn't Ock take over Spider-Man's mind in the Lee/Romita run?...

I read more Image books now than anything else. Invincible is by far my favorite super hero book. 

But super heroes are the entry into the hobby. Very few people get into comics with independents- although with TWD phenomenon that might be changing.

I just don't mind new takes on old stories. Heck, if we follow Campbell's thoughts on stories, nothing is really new in literature. 

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piper

piper

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Posted
1 hour ago, ChrisInBaltimore said:

"nothing is really new in literature..."

I know your not necessarily espousing this belief, but I certainly believe this to be the case.

Didn't Shakespeare essentially borrow heavily from the Greek Tragedies?

I like fresh takes on old themes, stories, and ideas. It keeps things fresh and if it makes things relatable to a newer generation, even better.

My kids see Dad's old masterworks volumes and yawn, but love his Ultimate Spidey TPBs...

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