New podcast/video from Felix Comic Art (UPDATED 1/3/17!) 6 6

[stinkininkin]

1 hour ago, delekkerste said:

I have to respectfully disagree, Eric.  While you are certainly correct in pointing out the genuine highlights of the '90s, those series/runs were a drop in the bucket of the oceans of shyte that were being cranked out to feed the direct market machine and speculator bubble during this time.  We had D-list artists getting gigs because Marvel couldn't crank out books fast enough, many of whom were never heard from again in a published professional comic artist capacity.  You even had guys like Sal Buscema changing their style to fit the Image-esque trend of the day (HORRIBLE).  

The empirical reality is that Just the sheer volume of product produced in this decade guaranteed that the wheat/chaff ratio was much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much lower than in previous decades.  

Didn't Herb Trimpe also take a run at our style in those early 90's?  Man, those were some weird times, especially for the older/established artists who must have been told by editorial at various companies to draw like this after so many years of drawing like, well, Herb freaking Trimpe!  I mean, if you were one of those artist's, you must have been wondering what the hell is going on!

Scott

Edited May 17, 2017 by stinkininkin
add a thought

[feder241]

15 hours ago, Nexus said:

The art Scott is holding up is Miller/Janson, and it's the published page. There's only one. In this case, I do believe Janson inked over Miller's pencils.

In general, I believe Janson inked over Miller pencils. Where Miller redrew panels/pages, I believe he either lightboxed the art himself, or redrew from scratch. So any Janson inks (or assistant inks) would still at least be over Miller pencils.

The page below has two versions. One is the unpublished Miller/Janson version (in the scan). The other is the published all-Miller version. (I don't have scan readily available of that version, but I think it was reproduced in the Gallery Edition.) This would seem to be clear evidence that Miller redrew the art later, as the "HAHAHAHA" and "KKKRAAAK" sound effects are statted from the earlier Miller/Janson version and pasted onto the new all-Miller art.

As well, you can see the page I own in my gallery, which is a Miller/Janson page, with all-Miller patch panels. The Batman panels were redrawn by Miller and pasted over the original Janson-inked panels.

Interesting, so there are in essence 3 "versions" of this page? 

1) Original Janson inks over Miller pencils for the whole page

2) The version above which has version 1 with full Miller panels pasted over

3) The published full Miller version?

I remember Frank at the NYCC DKIII panel a couple of years back where he said he was driving Klaus crazy with all the panel cut and pasting he was doing on DKR.

[jjonahjameson11]

49 minutes ago, stinkininkin said:

Didn't Herb Trimpe also take a run at our style in those early 90's?  Man, those were some weird times, especially for the older/established artists who must have been told by editorial at various companies to draw like this after so many years of drawing like, well, Herb freaking Trimpe!  I mean, if you were one of those artist's, you must have been wondering what the hell is going on!

Scott

Yup.  FF Unlimited immediately comes to mind...

[Nexus]

15 hours ago, J.Sid said:

So, the lettering at the time (Dark Knight) was done before the inking, right?

Not sure, but in the case of the pictured page, I think it was just the sound effects that were laid in before inking.

[Nexus]

15 hours ago, J.Sid said:

 So you think Miller was doing the lightboxing, and not Klaus?

The interview implied Klaus was instructed to lightbox copies of the pages before inking, right? Scott claims "...Frank had his pencils still..."

 

I think Scott may have gotten this one wrong. My best guess is that Klaus (and his assistants) were working directly over Frank's pencils.

[Nexus]

41 minutes ago, feder241 said:

Interesting, so there are in essence 3 "versions" of this page? 

1) Original Janson inks over Miller pencils for the whole page

2) The version above which has version 1 with full Miller panels pasted over

3) The published full Miller version?

I remember Frank at the NYCC DKIII panel a couple of years back where he said he was driving Klaus crazy with all the panel cut and pasting he was doing on DKR.

No, just two versions, not three. #1 and #2 happen on the same page. Miller would paste his redraw/inked panels (#2) over the already-inked page by Janson (#1). Case in point:

This is a page I own. Miller redid the four middle Batman panels and pasted over the original Janson-inked panels. The whole thing, once combined, then became the published page.

There are very, very few instances of #3 that I'm aware of.

Any given page, though, could be #1, #2, or #3. But again, there would be at most, two versions of the same page (and again, that's pretty rare).

 

[feder241]

8 minutes ago, Nexus said:

No, just two versions, not three. #1 and #2 happen on the same page. Miller would paste his redraw/inked panels (#2) over the already-inked page by Janson (#1). Case in point:

This is a page I own. Miller redid the four middle Batman panels and pasted over the original Janson-inked panels. The whole thing, once combined, then became the published page.

There are very, very few instances of #3 that I'm aware of.

Any given page, though, could be #1, #2, or #3. But again, there would be at most, two versions of the same page (and again, that's pretty rare).

 

Right, #1 and #2 occur on the same physical page, I was just loosely referring to them as 2 different versions. In your above post with the image of the Joker dying you mentioned there is another version of that page, which is the published all-Miller version. So would that page be an example of #3, where another version exists on a physically page?

[Nexus]

3 minutes ago, feder241 said:

Right, #1 and #2 occur on the same physical page, I was just loosely referring to them as 2 different versions. In your above post with the image of the Joker dying you mentioned there is another version of that page, which is the published all-Miller version. So would that page be an example of #3, where another version exists on a physically page?

Correct.

[Nexus]

17 hours ago, Bronty said:

To build on that, to me, there are clear reasons.  

In the mid 70s a lot of the most exciting talents of the early 70s were leaving comics or sharply reducing output, and the old guard (Kirby etc) were retiring.   It left a talent void, and it took a while to fill it.

In the early 90s there was also a void, of story, because of the road the industry went down, and it took a while for the industry to realize the jig was up and to fill the void by returning to basic principles of quality story.

The back half of the 50s wasn't super interesting either as whole... a void, this time of risk-taking, caused by legal scares of the comics code.  

The 80s were a relatively stable time, as were the 60s, from a business perspective, so the overall quality of the output was on average a little higher than during some of the other eras.   (Obviously each era has its exceptions).

I agree with this. I also think that what separates the '80s from the '70s, is a viable and popular mainstream alternative to the Big Two, via independent publishers like First, Eclipse, Comico, Pacific, et al. They didn't last, ultimately, but did lay the groundwork for the "Image Revolution" of the '90s, that Eric points out.

As well, IMO, those '80s indies are the creative/spiritual forefathers of the great creator-owned works that have been coming out since the early '00s. They've learned from the mistakes, fine-tuned that formula, and have helped foster an environment to succeed. And yes, Image Comics being around is also a big part of that.

[Nexus]

6 hours ago, biglouv said:

Does anybody have un-inked Dark Knight pages?  I don't ever recall seeing any.  I thought there were: 1. FM/Janson pages -- 2. pages totally redrawn by Frank -- 3.  panels that were drawn by Frank that were used over existing panels.  My partial page is scenario number 3.

It would create quite a stir if it turns out there are separate FM pencils and Janson inked pages.  I am certainly no expert but again, I don't ever recall seeing full un-inked FM pages other than in print.  I believe the Dark Knight Absolute volume shows a bunch of them but I assumed they were stats from before inking.

Indeed. I've never seen an original penciled Miller DKR page. Maybe they're out there, but that none have popped up leads me to believe that Janson inked over Miller pencils.

[Nexus]

1 hour ago, feder241 said:

I remember Frank at the NYCC DKIII panel a couple of years back where he said he was driving Klaus crazy with all the panel cut and pasting he was doing on DKR.

Forgot to say that of course, this is all our best educated guess. Would love to hear Frank and Klaus explain what went down back then, now that everyone is on good terms again.

[Bronty]

Yes, those 80s indies are terrific books.   There is garbage sure but there are so many jewels as well.

You know, in thinking over what I wrote above, I called the late 70s a talent void, and it was, but I guess it was really caused by another business related crisis for the industry.    Circulation numbers from 72-74 were in the toilet and the old distribution system was at/near collapse by the mid 70s.    So there was probably a good reason talented people were leaving in droves!   It was an uncertain time on the business end.

 

 

[Bronty]

1 minute ago, Nexus said:

Forgot to say that of course, this is all our best educated guess. Would love to hear Frank and Klaus explain what went down back then, now that everyone is on good terms again.

Hmmm sounds like that would make a terrific podcast

I imagine getting an hour of Frank's time to be quite the challenge though!

These podcasts are a real treat Felix.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Bronty

[Bird]

1 hour ago, Bill C said:

Yeah, Herb pencilled a couple issues of Valentino's GOTG at the end of Jim's run, using that "new" style. The art was definitely ugly, but in Herb's defense I understand that he was strongly urged to change his style.

I am pretty sure that I talked to herb about it back in the day. he said that he couldn't get work so he tried to do what the in demand artists were doing. two sides of the same coin I guess.

Sean Chen tried to Jim Lee it up as well. I love his clean classic style and am glad he went back to that.

[J.Sid]

7 hours ago, Nexus said:

No, just two versions, not three. #1 and #2 happen on the same page. Miller would paste his redraw/inked panels (#2) over the already-inked page by Janson (#1). Case in point:

This is a page I own. Miller redid the four middle Batman panels and pasted over the original Janson-inked panels. The whole thing, once combined, then became the published page.

There are very, very few instances of #3 that I'm aware of.

Any given page, though, could be #1, #2, or #3. But again, there would be at most, two versions of the same page (and again, that's pretty rare).

 

 

 

Question about this one, Felix. I looked at it in my Gallery Edition last night and the lettering INSIDE balloons appears to be white/brighter than the tone of the rest of the page (talking about the Janson page).

Is this just a wonky scan/production glitch?

Or is the lettering pasted on? White-out covering inked artwork underneath?

 

[delekkerste]

16 hours ago, Bill C said:

Yeah, I noticed the lack of Facebook or other ways of connecting via the internet. Understandably, not everyone wants an online presence (especially those who didn't grow up with it). I appreciate hearing about the status of your search. 

I think one would have to track him down the old fashioned way to attempt to purchase art.

Someone did track him down for me on my behalf, but he never responded.  Even if he still has the art, he may just not have any time/interest in responding to inquiries like mine.  I heard he's long since out of the art game and has a plumbing business these days.  

[ESeffinga]

Call and say you have a toilet leak!

[JadeGiant]

On 5/17/2017 at 10:13 AM, delekkerste said:

I have to respectfully disagree, Eric.  While you are certainly correct in pointing out the genuine highlights of the '90s, those series/runs were a drop in the bucket of the oceans of shyte that were being cranked out to feed the direct market machine and speculator bubble during this time.  We had D-list artists getting gigs because Marvel couldn't crank out books fast enough, many of whom were never heard from again in a published professional comic artist capacity.  You even had guys like Sal Buscema changing their style to fit the Image-esque trend of the day (HORRIBLE).  

The empirical reality is that Just the sheer volume of product produced in this decade guaranteed that the wheat/chaff ratio was much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much lower than in previous decades.  

Did you mean Herb Trimpe? I certainly recall his temporary style change (agreed: HORRIBLE) to suit the mania around the 90's "style" but never recalled Sal adopting this as well. 

[JadeGiant]

18 hours ago, Bill C said:

Yeah, Herb pencilled a couple issues of Valentino's GOTG at the end of Jim's run, using that "new" style. The art was definitely ugly, but in Herb's defense I understand that he was strongly urged to change his style.

Anyone know who was strongly urging Herb? 

[delekkerste]

2 minutes ago, JadeGiant said:

Did you mean Herb Trimpe? I certainly recall his temporary style change (agreed: HORRIBLE) to suit the mania around the 90's "style" but never recalled Sal adopting this as well. 

No, talking about Sal on '90s-era PPSS.  Definitely making an effort to blend into the style of the day; doesn't look much like his earlier work.