The Black CAT club (Cerebus1, Albedo 2, TMNT1) 7 7

[Ryan.]

On 2/8/2022 at 6:06 PM, valiantman said:

ElfQuest #2 ($1.00 cover) is the first publication by Wendy and Richard Pini (WaRP Graphics).  Fantasy Quarterly #1 is a big book, but ElfQuest #2 ($1.00 cover, first printing) shouldn't be as far behind as it is. 

Wendy and Richard really don't like FQ.  Quality is low, they were misled, they never got paid, etc.  ElfQuest #2 is the "real deal" directly from their own hands. 

Don't make me regret selling my Elfquest 2 $1.00 cover last year. 

[valiantman]

On 2/8/2022 at 5:08 PM, Ryan. said:

Don't make me regret selling my Elfquest 2 $1.00 cover last year. 

Isn't that normally when books skyrocket?  Don't feel too bad about it, one of the guys who started dogecoin sold it all when he got to $10,000 and what he had was headed to at least $1,000,000,000.

[SuperBird]

On 2/8/2022 at 6:06 PM, valiantman said:

ElfQuest #2 ($1.00 cover) is the first publication by Wendy and Richard Pini (WaRP Graphics).  Fantasy Quarterly #1 is a big book, but ElfQuest #2 ($1.00 cover, first printing) shouldn't be as far behind as it is. 

Wendy and Richard really don't like FQ.  Quality is low, they were misled, they never got paid, etc.  ElfQuest #2 is the "real deal" directly from their own hands. 

what about Elfquest 1? (or is that FQ1?)

[valiantman]

On 2/8/2022 at 5:26 PM, SuperBird said:

what about Elfquest 1? (or is that FQ1?)

ElfQuest #1 is a reprint of FQ #1 from about the same time as ElfQuest #4.  Release order of the WaRP Graphics books was ElfQuest #2, #3, #4, #1, #5 or ElfQuest #2, #3, #1, #4, #5

ElfQuest #2, #3, #4, #1, #5 should be $1.00 cover for first printings. Anything higher is a reprint.  ElfQuest #6 started the $1.25 first printings.

Edited February 8, 2022 by valiantman

[WolverineX]

On 2/8/2022 at 5:15 PM, SuperBird said:

There seem to be a lot of copies of that one... I have 1 at least!

Nice! Aim for a 9.8 if you ever see one.  Difficult due to the bad paper quality

[WolverineX]

On 2/8/2022 at 4:44 PM, Ryan. said:

Fantasy Quarterly 1, here we come.

I think you are right... it's already starting...

[Legion of Goom]

On 2/8/2022 at 5:15 PM, SuperBird said:

There seem to be a lot of copies of that one... I have 1 at least!

I have to wonder if that was a "warehouse" book of some sort...to see a book that's relatively uncommon but with that number of very high grades on the census makes it look like there were a box or two of pristine-conditioned copies that never actually got distributed.

[lou_fine]

On 2/6/2022 at 11:44 AM, Aman619 said:

But having said that,  to me Daves personal copies that he released are different.  It's a scarcer book for its time, and most copies sold in stores were already damaged which was baked into collecting Cerebus 1... until Dave released his signed 9.4s into the market.  So its always felt to me that they deserve an "asterisk".  And that a 9.4 in the wild that got slabbed is scarcer than Daves highest graded, least-damaged copies (later slabbed as 9.4s) --  plucked out of the initial shipment on Harrys floor the night they unboxed them are more common.

Hey Aman;

Didn't realize that you was such a big fan of Cerebus 1 and also so knowledgeable about the book.  

As such, being a long time boardie who seems to know how CGC operates when it comes to grading, I have always wonder about something when it comes to this book here.  Since CGC supposedly takes known production defects into account when it comes to grading a particular book (eg. Marvel chipping which is downgraded to a far lesser extent than other chipping), do you know if CGC is baking in the fact that virtually all copies of Cerebus 1 left the printing facility already in damaged condition?  

Since most of the production damage is limited to creasing along the spine, which as we all know CGC absolutely hates with an eye to their top and bottom lines , do you think they are still hitting these books for the full impact of these production printing creases?  Especially since if you exclude Dave's Signature copies which he supposedly cherry picked after going through the entire print run, there are still only 2 copies of Cerebus 1 which has graded as high as CGC 9.4 after all these long years which would seem to be statistically impossible for a #1 first issue (i.e. much more likely to be collected) book from as late as 1977.  

Also, any idea where this CGC 9.6 Signature copy of Cerebus 1 came from since it was graded and slabbed during the second half of 2019 and hence not part of the so-called Dave Sim File Copy Pedigree Collection books which were all signed back in March of 2004?  Just wondering if this was another personal copy held back by Dave or if this was one of the copies which came out of Deni's divorce settlement?  Hard to imagine a CGC 9.6 graded copy being missed by Dave during his supposedly meticulous cherry picking process and therefore just coming out of the wild.    

[Rosland]

The CGC 9.6 was signed on 3/13/04, the same day as Dave's other file copies, so I would have to assume it was one of his 10 copies, that was regraded and lost the "File Copy" in the process.

[Rosland]

Of the 10 signed books submitted back in March 2004, 9 are still in the census. The missing one was an 8.0 and is not the same as the 9.6 (I have the 8.0 archive image).

Somehow there seems to be an 11th witnessed signature book from that day...

[Crimebuster]

On 2/9/2022 at 7:21 PM, Legion of Goom said:

I have to wonder if that was a "warehouse" book of some sort...to see a book that's relatively uncommon but with that number of very high grades on the census makes it look like there were a box or two of pristine-conditioned copies that never actually got distributed.

If memory serves, I seem to recall in a letter column late in the original Elfquest run the Pinis revealed they had indeed found a box or two that were never distributed and were selling them by mail to fans. I don't have my issues anymore to verify this memory is correct, but I think that was the case.

[WolverineX]

On 2/9/2022 at 7:21 PM, Legion of Goom said:

I have to wonder if that was a "warehouse" book of some sort...to see a book that's relatively uncommon but with that number of very high grades on the census makes it look like there were a box or two of pristine-conditioned copies that never actually got distributed.

Interesting... Just looked at the FQ 1 census and was a little surprised by the distribution.  I guess the reason I never see 9.8s is because the print run is low compared to other books.

Anyone know if the Pinis ever disclosed the print run of the first print?

 

[Aman619]

I used to run across minty unread copies of FQ at conventions frequently..  I seem to recall that indie books always seemed to have unsold copies out there as if the publisher orders left much of the print runs in their hands to be liquidated at some point later.  I picked up 2 of then for $40 bucks apiece and was thrilled at my good fortune, til my dealer friends clued me in to the large supply out there...  I still have 2 or three copies somewhere.  The recent news of an Efquest movie was exciting.

[Aman619]

On 2/10/2022 at 1:47 AM, lou_fine said:

Hey Aman;

Didn't realize that you was such a big fan of Cerebus 1 and also so knowledgeable about the book.  

As such, being a long time boardie who seems to know how CGC operates when it comes to grading, I have always wonder about something when it comes to this book here.  Since CGC supposedly takes known production defects into account when it comes to grading a particular book (eg. Marvel chipping which is downgraded to a far lesser extent than other chipping), do you know if CGC is baking in the fact that virtually all copies of Cerebus 1 left the printing facility already in damaged condition?  

Since most of the production damage is limited to creasing along the spine, which as we all know CGC absolutely hates with an eye to their top and bottom lines , do you think they are still hitting these books for the full impact of these production printing creases?  Especially since if you exclude Dave's Signature copies which he supposedly cherry picked after going through the entire print run, there are still only 2 copies of Cerebus 1 which has graded as high as CGC 9.4 after all these long years which would seem to be statistically impossible for a #1 first issue (i.e. much more likely to be collected) book from as late as 1977.  

Also, any idea where this CGC 9.6 Signature copy of Cerebus 1 came from since it was graded and slabbed during the second half of 2019 and hence not part of the so-called Dave Sim File Copy Pedigree Collection books which were all signed back in March of 2004?  Just wondering if this was another personal copy held back by Dave or if this was one of the copies which came out of Deni's divorce settlement?  Hard to imagine a CGC 9.6 graded copy being missed by Dave during his supposedly meticulous cherry picking process and therefore just coming out of the wild.    

I got into Cerebus at around issue 36 and was hooked.  I used to call and order from Harry Kremer and ordered a LOT of copies until he ran out.  He would tell me the stories of the early days including the Cerebus 1 tale of how bad the printing was.  He didnt mention that Dave had put aside 10 copies though, just that they went through them all and counted the really poor copies for a refund from the printer.  They received 400 extra copes of #2 as a make good. (at that point in time who cared about an unknown badly drawn b/w comic about an aardvark who could talk and thought he was Conan? .  As for CGCs grading of known production issues like Cerebus 1, you'd have to ask them.  But I kinda think you would rather just assume they have a larger agenda at work!!  : )   As for an additional 9.6 copy NOT in Daves 10 copies, its possible that Dave only pulled an even number and not EVERY single copy that didnt have spine cracks, and that some survived the journey into a mylar in High Grade like salmon babies swimming upstream somehow!

[lou_fine]

On 2/10/2022 at 2:07 PM, Aman619 said:

I got into Cerebus at around issue 36 and was hooked.  I used to call and order from Harry Kremer and ordered a LOT of copies until he ran out.

Well, with your love for Cerebus back then along with your connection to Harry who was a central figure in the early times when it came to retailing the early issues of Cerebus, I certainly hope that you was able to acquire all of the back issues prior to issue 36 all the way back to the now highly sought after Cerebus 1.    

Edited February 10, 2022 by lou_fine

[BanjerD]

On 2/11/2022 at 4:58 AM, Wolverinex said:

Interesting... Just looked at the FQ 1 census and was a little surprised by the distribution.  I guess the reason I never see 9.8s is because the print run is low compared to other books.

Anyone know if the Pinis ever disclosed the print run of the first print?

 

I seem to recall someone throwing around the 10,000 number for distribution for FQ1.  This article mentions 10k distribution for #2 through WaRP:

https://www.meyersonstrategy.com/2019/08/the-origins-of-independent-comics.html

[Aman619]

On 2/10/2022 at 5:55 PM, lou_fine said:

Well, with your love for Cerebus back then along with your connection to Harry who was a central figure in the early times when it came to retailing the early issues of Cerebus, I certainly hope that you was able to acquire all of the back issues prior to issue 36 all the way back to the now highly sought after Cerebus 1.    

haha  I have multiple copies of all the early issues.  I bought as many copies as I could find.  It was that good and had all the earmarks of a rising star that would "go up"!  and it DID.  Then years later Dave revealed himself as pretty weird, he lost readers and Cerebus became an afterthought.  Every now and then I watch his little weekly videos online to check in, and he still is clueless how to be normal. I saw him at a show and he was doing sketches.  I asked for one for my baby daughter.  The caption he added was "Cerebus hates two year olds!"  nice.

He was brilliant, and created something few others will ever match or come close.  but... life turns out funny sometimes.

[PeterPark]

On 2/10/2022 at 8:22 PM, Aman619 said:

haha  I have multiple copies of all the early issues.  I bought as many copies as I could find.  It was that good and had all the earmarks of a rising star that would "go up"!  and it DID.  Then years later Dave revealed himself as pretty weird, he lost readers and Cerebus became an afterthought.  Every now and then I watch his little weekly videos online to check in, and he still is clueless how to be normal. I saw him at a show and he was doing sketches.  I asked for one for my baby daughter.  The caption he added was "Cerebus hates two year olds!"  nice.

He was brilliant, and created something few others will ever match or come close.  but... life turns out funny sometimes.

So when did Cerebus jump the shark? I bought a couple random issues back in the 90's and had no clue what was going on...granted I was a lot younger then, but it didn't do anything for me. 

I did enjoy some of the reprints for a while though, like the ones with wolveroach

[Aman619]

theres a lot of good write-ups on this.  It was for me in two phases.  Basically Dave broke up his 300 book story into 25 issue blocks each with its own name.  He used this mechanism to republish the series every 2 years into the "phonebooks:  500 page B/W reprints of each Story section.   The first 25 issues or so it's just a funny story about an aardvark warrior encountering the cities, dealing with people, Lord Julius (Grouch Marx) and various sorcerers (Like Conan).  Then he settles in a big city and gets involved with politics (High Society), running for Prime Minister. After that ends badly, of course, he somehow becomes pope.  Sprinkled throughout he meets up with Sims caricatures of Marvel characters: Moon Roach, Wolveroach, Claremont, as well as Mick Jagger and others.  After issue 100, the story widens into religious wars and we meet other fantasy characters who have long theosophical word battles and we find out Cerebus is a lot more than a bumbling, cynical selfish wandering swordsman, rather a key player in the grand scheme of the universe.  That was all good rollicking dense storytelling!  And the artwork took a big boost after issue 60 or so when Gerhard arrived to add incredibly detailed crosshatched backgrounds, just as Dave was tiring of filling every panel with lifework 100% himself.

Where it started to wobble for me was Jakas Story in which he goes back and fleshes out his erstwhile girlfriend Jaka, who was just a barroom dancer then his love interest. Here every other page of the comic was a page of text only written as an historical novel.  Jarring-- if i wanted to read a prose book I wouldn't buy comics! But whatever Dave wants! Im sure its brilliant and I promise to go back and read it someday...

The BIG BLOW came in issue 186 (?)  spoiler alert:  Here Dave jumps the shark and appears as a character that is actually writing Cerebus. And soon after we are treated to what he refers to as 'Form and Void'. Basically a misogynist rant that cost him personal and professional friendships (Female AND Male) and half his loyal readership. "Form" being the male; and the "Void" being female. Get it?  Male = Important, vital.  Female being  empty, useless and valueless.  oops. 20 years before MeToo, Dave put his foot in his mouth big time and has steadfastly refused to remove it.

But the story continued on through his long planned issue 300, with just a (relatively) few of us still waiting in stores every 30 days for the next installment. We travel with Hemingway, F Scott Fitzgerald, Oscar Wilde, Cerebus sits outside a cafe for 10 issues straight. Learns a street game... its all feels very self indulgent! AND as hinted at repeatedly over the course of the comics, and planned for 25 years, Cerebus finally dies alone, and unloved. The End.  Oh and the Three Stooges are there at some point at the end too!  woohoo..

 

I was loving it and I guess my sour retelling betrays my feelings of disappointment overall.  But taken on its own, still a brilliant effort.  I mean, movies can cost 100s of millions hiring the top talent in all facets of film production -- and most are just not great, right? This is like one that starts out amazing, eclectic, funny, smart, insightful etc but ends as a letdown.  And turns out the creator is a jerk too.

[PeterPark]

On 2/10/2022 at 9:10 PM, Aman619 said:

theres a lot of good write-ups on this.  It was for me in two phases.  Basically Dave broke up his 300 book story into 25 issue blocks each with its own name.  He used this mechanism to republish the series every 2 years into the "phonebooks:  500 page B/W reprints of each Story section.   The first 25 issues or so it's just a funny story about an aardvark warrior encountering the cities, dealing with people, Lord Julius (Grouch Marx) and various sorcerers (Like Conan).  Then he settles in a big city and gets involved with politics (High Society), running for Prime Minister. After that ends badly, of course, he somehow becomes pope.  Sprinkled throughout he meets up with Sims caricatures of Marvel characters: Moon Roach, Wolveroach, Claremont, as well as Mick Jagger and others.  After issue 100, the story widens into religious wars and we meet other fantasy characters who have long theosophical word battles and we find out Cerebus is a lot more than a bumbling, cynical selfish wandering swordsman, rather a key player in the grand scheme of the universe.  That was all good rollicking dense storytelling!  And the artwork took a big boost after issue 60 or so when Gerhard arrived to add incredibly detailed crosshatched backgrounds, just as Dave was tiring of filling every panel with lifework 100% himself.

Where it started to wobble for me was Jakas Story in which he goes back and fleshes out his erstwhile girlfriend Jaka, who was just a barroom dancer then his love interest. Here every other page of the comic was a page of text only written as an historical novel.  Jarring-- if i wanted to read a prose book I wouldn't buy comics! But whatever Dave wants! Im sure its brilliant and I promise to go back and read it someday...

The BIG BLOW came in issue 186 (?)  spoiler alert:  Here Dave jumps the shark and appears as a character that is actually writing Cerebus. And soon after we are treated to what he refers to as 'Form and Void'. Basically a misogynist rant that cost him personal and professional friendships (Female AND Male) and half his loyal readership. "Form" being the male; and the "Void" being female. Get it?  Male = Important, vital.  Female being  empty, useless and valueless.  oops. 20 years before MeToo, Dave put his foot in his mouth big time and has steadfastly refused to remove it.

But the story continued on through his long planned issue 300, with just a (relatively) few of us still waiting in stores every 30 days for the next installment. We travel with Hemingway, F Scott Fitzgerald, Oscar Wilde, Cerebus sits outside a cafe for 10 issues straight. Learns a street game... its all feels very self indulgent! AND as hinted at repeatedly over the course of the comics, and planned for 25 years, Cerebus finally dies alone, and unloved. The End.  Oh and the Three Stooges are there at some point at the end too!  woohoo..

 

I was loving it and I guess my sour retelling betrays my feelings of disappointment overall.  But taken on its own, still a brilliant effort.  I mean, movies can cost 100s of millions hiring the top talent in all facets of film production -- and most are just not great, right? This is like one that starts out amazing, eclectic, funny, smart, insightful etc but ends as a letdown.  And turns out the creator is a jerk too.

I get the form and void criticism but as I was reading through your analysis and before the Male = Important, vital. part, I read it as merely a reference to um...reproductive parts. The male is the form...or the uh...outer shape...and the female is the void, or place for it... It read to me like a keymaster/gatekeeper kind of thing like Ghostbusters. Not that that was particularly clever in the first place but from the sound of it I'm sure he said some things that made it obvious that literal interpretation was not his intention.