The Black CAT club (Cerebus1, Albedo 2, TMNT1) 7 7

[WolverineX]

On 2/10/2022 at 9:10 PM, Aman619 said:

theres a lot of good write-ups on this.  It was for me in two phases.  Basically Dave broke up his 300 book story into 25 issue blocks each with its own name.  He used this mechanism to republish the series every 2 years into the "phonebooks:  500 page B/W reprints of each Story section.   The first 25 issues or so it's just a funny story about an aardvark warrior encountering the cities, dealing with people, Lord Julius (Grouch Marx) and various sorcerers (Like Conan).  Then he settles in a big city and gets involved with politics (High Society), running for Prime Minister. After that ends badly, of course, he somehow becomes pope.  Sprinkled throughout he meets up with Sims caricatures of Marvel characters: Moon Roach, Wolveroach, Claremont, as well as Mick Jagger and others.  After issue 100, the story widens into religious wars and we meet other fantasy characters who have long theosophical word battles and we find out Cerebus is a lot more than a bumbling, cynical selfish wandering swordsman, rather a key player in the grand scheme of the universe.  That was all good rollicking dense storytelling!  And the artwork took a big boost after issue 60 or so when Gerhard arrived to add incredibly detailed crosshatched backgrounds, just as Dave was tiring of filling every panel with lifework 100% himself.

Where it started to wobble for me was Jakas Story in which he goes back and fleshes out his erstwhile girlfriend Jaka, who was just a barroom dancer then his love interest. Here every other page of the comic was a page of text only written as an historical novel.  Jarring-- if i wanted to read a prose book I wouldn't buy comics! But whatever Dave wants! Im sure its brilliant and I promise to go back and read it someday...

The BIG BLOW came in issue 186 (?)  spoiler alert:  Here Dave jumps the shark and appears as a character that is actually writing Cerebus. And soon after we are treated to what he refers to as 'Form and Void'. Basically a misogynist rant that cost him personal and professional friendships (Female AND Male) and half his loyal readership. "Form" being the male; and the "Void" being female. Get it?  Male = Important, vital.  Female being  empty, useless and valueless.  oops. 20 years before MeToo, Dave put his foot in his mouth big time and has steadfastly refused to remove it.

But the story continued on through his long planned issue 300, with just a (relatively) few of us still waiting in stores every 30 days for the next installment. We travel with Hemingway, F Scott Fitzgerald, Oscar Wilde, Cerebus sits outside a cafe for 10 issues straight. Learns a street game... its all feels very self indulgent! AND as hinted at repeatedly over the course of the comics, and planned for 25 years, Cerebus finally dies alone, and unloved. The End.  Oh and the Three Stooges are there at some point at the end too!  woohoo..

 

I was loving it and I guess my sour retelling betrays my feelings of disappointment overall.  But taken on its own, still a brilliant effort.  I mean, movies can cost 100s of millions hiring the top talent in all facets of film production -- and most are just not great, right? This is like one that starts out amazing, eclectic, funny, smart, insightful etc but ends as a letdown.  And turns out the creator is a jerk too.

Enjoyed hearing your thoughts on the series.  Are you surprised by the price action of Cerebus 1 in the past year given the controversial history of the creator?  

[Aman619]

Yes. Very surprised. I figured it was cold and would stay that way..but it has a high place in comics history, creatively and as one of the first, or THE first big success on the b/w and indie comics movement.  Dave was a thought leader in the industry… the champion of creator owned comics.  which he also fumbled away.

[Aman619]

On 2/10/2022 at 9:54 PM, PeterPark said:

I get the form and void criticism but as I was reading through your analysis and before the Male = Important, vital. part, I read it as merely a reference to um...reproductive parts. The male is the form...or the uh...outer shape...and the female is the void, or place for it... It read to me like a keymaster/gatekeeper kind of thing like Ghostbusters. Not that that was particularly clever in the first place but from the sound of it I'm sure he said some things that made it obvious that literal interpretation was not his intention.

Yes, that was what Dave intended for Form and Void.  I didn’t mention it so as not to post sexual content…. If I remember though, Dave vehemently doubled down on the whole old world concept of the dangers of Womens rights and the feminist movements.  He was born Jewish, but at this time in his life he was a celebrate studying Islam and religions in general.  The Cirinists gained control and put everyone in Burkhas in the comics.  And Maggie Thatcher was a constant target too.  But most people hated her at the time!

[lou_fine]

On 2/10/2022 at 12:47 AM, Rosland said:

Of the 10 signed books submitted back in March 2004, 9 are still in the census. The missing one was an 8.0 and is not the same as the 9.6 (I have the 8.0 archive image).

Somehow there seems to be an 11th witnessed signature book from that day...

Just checked the CGCdata.com website for Cerebus 1 and it indicates that there were only 9 HG Signature copies of Cerebus 1 as of July 12, 2004:  

http://www.cgcdata.com/cgc/search/comicid/39931/6mo

As the website shows, this was comprised of 2 CGC 9.4's, 3 CGC 9.2's, 3 CGC 9.0's, and then the 1 CGC 8.0 which you had already alluded to, for a total of only 9 Signature copies.  From this count here, then I would assume that all 9 of these highest graded Signature copies would have been from Dave Sim's personal files, whihc then still leaves one copy outstanding.  I highly doubt that this 10th copy would have been one of the other 3 Signature copies in the census at the time as their grades were far too low at only CGC 6.0. CGC 5.0, and a CGC 3.0 graded copy.  Any possibility that Dave might have saved the best condition signed copy for himself in his raw personal collection and did not bother to get it graded and slabbed until the latter half of 2019 when a CGC 9.6 graded Signature copy does show up in the CGC Census Population report for the first time?  

The other question which I have is whatever happened to the other 10 copies which Dave had cherry picked and ended up having to give it to Deni as part of their divorce settlement:

“By the time I started Cerebus, the story of Bill Gaines putting away twelve copies of each E.C. comic, fresh from the printer was pretty widespread in the collectibles market” says Sim. “I had no idea if it was an urban legend or not. I had heard that he put twenty of each away, so that’s what I did.” Sim laughs, “I’m glad I got that part wrong.”

Part of the property settlement when Sim and his wife, Deni, divorced in the early eighties, involved each taking half of the Cerebus No. 1’s.

After hearing how bad the divorce proceedings played out, it makes me kind of wonder if Deni ended up tossing all 10 of her cherry picked copies into a burning fireplace or flushed them all down the toilet to show exactly how he felt about Dave at the time back then.      

Or is it possible that Deni's 10 copies might be part of the 8 Universal unrestored blue label copies that's graded at CGC 9.0 and above?  

 

[lou_fine]

On 2/10/2022 at 12:08 AM, Rosland said:

The CGC 9.6 was signed on 3/13/04, the same day as Dave's other file copies, so I would have to assume it was one of his 10 copies, that was regraded and lost the "File Copy" in the process.

Not sure how the Signature signing and grading system works, but I don't imagine there's such a thing as having a CGC verified Signature book without having it graded and slabbed right afterwards.  Or is it possible that this anomaly was allowed for one of Dave's personal signed books?  

If not and if your assumption that the CGC 9.6 came from an upgraded former CGC 9.4 copy, then I guess the submittor did not bothered to ever turned back in their old CGC 9.4 label as the count of CGC 9.4 Signature copies remained the same at only 3 copies even after the addition of the only CGC 9.6 Signature graded copy back in the latter half of 2019.  

[lou_fine]

On 2/10/2022 at 5:22 PM, Aman619 said:

haha  I have multiple copies of all the early issues.  I bought as many copies as I could find.

Well, since the entire print run for Cerebus 1 was only 2,000 copies, then you kind sir with your multiple copies must be either a filthy but lucky hoarder or one of  those greedy but very astute speculators.    

Seriously though, good for you and was you ever able to fund and acquire any copy without those ubiquitous and notorious spine cracks on them?  

Being much more of a collector, I never really went for buying multiple copies of a book.  The only real exception that I remember making here was for Special Marvel Edition 15 with the first appearance of Shang-Chi.  I remember picking up 4 or 5 copies of this book back then because I was never quite completely satisfied with the centering and that eye piercing white that was running down the spine on most copies of that book.  That book was so common that you simply couldn't help but to run across it in the back issue bins of every single LCS back then.  Stopped buying when it hit that outrageous amount of $3 for a so-called Mint copy of that book as there was just no way I was going to spend that kind of money for such a common book.    

Edited February 11, 2022 by lou_fine

[Aman619]

I Loved the series so much, and was never afraid to double up on a great comic.  It’s quality was so obvious and it caught on for a while, getting very popular for a b/w rough around the edges indie. 
 

never found one without spine cracks, and kept trying, but they were in pretty nice shape. There weren’t many dealers hip to Cerebus right away, but those that were got some nice unread copies frequently through their sources. 

[SuperBird]

On 2/10/2022 at 8:31 PM, PeterPark said:

So when did Cerebus jump the shark? I bought a couple random issues back in the 90's and had no clue what was going on...granted I was a lot younger then, but it didn't do anything for me. 

I did enjoy some of the reprints for a while though, like the ones with wolveroach

It jumped the shark after issue 200. Dave has said he only planned the story that far, and afterwards was just doing whatever. gerhard actually stopped even reading the book after a few years of that. And by jumping the shark, let me tell you, it's basically unreadable apart from a short 20-issue stint in the 240s. 

[SuperBird]

On 2/10/2022 at 1:47 AM, lou_fine said:

As such, being a long time boardie who seems to know how CGC operates when it comes to grading, I have always wonder about something when it comes to this book here.  Since CGC supposedly takes known production defects into account when it comes to grading a particular book (eg. Marvel chipping which is downgraded to a far lesser extent than other chipping), do you know if CGC is baking in the fact that virtually all copies of Cerebus 1 left the printing facility already in damaged condition?  

Since most of the production damage is limited to creasing along the spine, which as we all know CGC absolutely hates with an eye to their top and bottom lines , do you think they are still hitting these books for the full impact of these production printing creases? 

CGC does not forgive the spine damage on Cerebus 1s. It was shipping damage as opposed to printing damage, though I suspect that wouldn't matter? 

[SuperBird]

I started reading it with issue 63, and spent the next 10 years or so hunting down copies of 1-62 at shows. It didn't matter the condiction or even the price really. 

26-135 are absolutely one of the finest comic runs ever created. The end of Jaka's Story was just devastating. After that it kind of drifted and went down in quality until 200, where it should have just ended. I stopped reading once the last arc started and Cerebus got old and decrepit, realizing it was not going anywhere better. 

[Aman619]

yeah. thats how I felt too, 100 issues of trending sideways and downwards at the same time.  But, I had hoped he'd do SOMETHING interesting at the end after envisioning it for 25 years!  Ive always remembered Dave picking 300 issues.  Both are crazy plans to make, and crazier to pull off.  He was such a fanatic about certitude I think if he ever stated publicly it was 200 issues he would have been compelled to stop according to his tightly wound internal moral compass.

[Rosland]

On 2/11/2022 at 12:28 AM, lou_fine said:

Just checked the CGCdata.com website for Cerebus 1 and it indicates that there were only 9 HG Signature copies of Cerebus 1 as of July 12, 2004:  

http://www.cgcdata.com/cgc/search/comicid/39931/6mo

As the website shows, this was comprised of 2 CGC 9.4's, 3 CGC 9.2's, 3 CGC 9.0's, and then the 1 CGC 8.0 which you had already alluded to, for a total of only 9 Signature copies.  From this count here, then I would assume that all 9 of these highest graded Signature copies would have been from Dave Sim's personal files, whihc then still leaves one copy outstanding.  I highly doubt that this 10th copy would have been one of the other 3 Signature copies in the census at the time as their grades were far too low at only CGC 6.0. CGC 5.0, and a CGC 3.0 graded copy.  Any possibility that Dave might have saved the best condition signed copy for himself in his raw personal collection and did not bother to get it graded and slabbed until the latter half of 2019 when a CGC 9.6 graded Signature copy does show up in the CGC Census Population report for the first time?  

The other question which I have is whatever happened to the other 10 copies which Dave had cherry picked and ended up having to give it to Deni as part of their divorce settlement:

“By the time I started Cerebus, the story of Bill Gaines putting away twelve copies of each E.C. comic, fresh from the printer was pretty widespread in the collectibles market” says Sim. “I had no idea if it was an urban legend or not. I had heard that he put twenty of each away, so that’s what I did.” Sim laughs, “I’m glad I got that part wrong.”

Part of the property settlement when Sim and his wife, Deni, divorced in the early eighties, involved each taking half of the Cerebus No. 1’s.

After hearing how bad the divorce proceedings played out, it makes me kind of wonder if Deni ended up tossing all 10 of her cherry picked copies into a burning fireplace or flushed them all down the toilet to show exactly how he felt about Dave at the time back then.      

Or is it possible that Deni's 10 copies might be part of the 8 Universal unrestored blue label copies that's graded at CGC 9.0 and above?  

 

There were 3 graded 9.4: *001, *002, and *010. The *001 must have been reholdered or something in January 2008, keeping the original S/N. I've never seen the *010 copy.

Heritage sold the *001 copy in February 2010 and GPA  shows it as sold in September 2019.

 

• There is a boards posting from June 15, 2009:
•  
• The 12 top copies are the Dave Sim file copies:                              (note: must be two other copies mixed in at 8.5 and 8.0)
• - 3 x 9.4
• - 3 x 9.2
• - 3 x 9.0
• - 1 x 8.5
• - 2 x 8.0

 

• There is also this article from 2004 with the *001 copy up for sale (according to my memory).
• Scoop - Where the Magic of Collecting Comes Alive! - Cerebus File Copy Auctions Begin (previewsworld.com)
   

If Dave spent time going through all 2000 copies to cherry pick, I'm sure he would have kept the best 10 for himself at the divorce. The fly in the ointment, of course, is what criteria he chose to pick with...

[lou_fine]

On 2/11/2022 at 8:23 AM, SuperBird said:

CGC does not forgive the spine damage on Cerebus 1s. It was shipping damage as opposed to printing damage, though I suspect that wouldn't matter? 

Totally don't buy this story that it was shipping damage as opposed to production printing damage, and if so, Dave should have gone after the shipping company instead of the printing company.  

Nevertheless, I thought CGC was supposed to be grading books based upon the condition they were in when they arrived at the LCS's.  At least that's what we were led to believe when certain books have unique well known production printing defects, and especially in the case of the early Marvel keys with their horrid eye gouging Marvel chipping which they give a soft pass to when it comes to grading.  Their rationale apparently being that these early Marvel keys had poor production printing, although isn't there still far more uber HG copies of all of the early Marvel keys than there are with the few much later regular HG copies of Cerebus 1.    

[lou_fine]

On 2/11/2022 at 9:52 PM, Rosland said:

If Dave spent time going through all 2000 copies to cherry pick, I'm sure he would have kept the best 10 for himself at the divorce. The fly in the ointment, of course, is what criteria he chose to pick with...

So, any idea what happened with Deni's 10 copies which she would have gotten as part of the divorce settlement?  

Or was Dave so pissed off with the whole breakup and proceedings by then, that he decided to take a and a poop on all of her copies before passing them over to her.   

[Rosland]

On 2/12/2022 at 10:55 AM, lou_fine said:

So, any idea what happened with Deni's 10 copies which she would have gotten as part of the divorce settlement?  

Or was Dave so pissed off with the whole breakup and proceedings by then, that he decided to take a and a poop on all of her copies before passing them over to her.   

No idea about Deni's copies.

Cerebus 1 is an oversized issue and I read somewhere that the damage was done when squeezing them into standard comic boxes for shipping.

Rooting through my archive I've also found two CGC 9.2 SS books that were signed back in March 2004 (and graded in 2020) that do not have the "File Copy" designation. With the 9.6 that makes three in the club. CGC must be allowing these copies to be slabbed as SS after 15-16 years.

[lou_fine]

On 2/12/2022 at 1:11 PM, Rosland said:

Cerebus 1 is an oversized issue and I read somewhere that the damage was done when squeezing them into standard comic boxes for shipping.

 

 

On 2/12/2022 at 1:11 PM, Rosland said:

Rooting through my archive I've also found two CGC 9.2 SS books that were signed back in March 2004 (and graded in 2020) that do not have the "File Copy" designation. With the 9.6 that makes three in the club. CGC must be allowing these copies to be slabbed as SS after 15-16 years.

Don't believe this is how the signature verification process is supposed to be working because how can CGC verify something some 15 or 16 years after the fact if the book was not graded and slabbed at the time.  

[SuperBird]

On 2/12/2022 at 1:50 PM, lou_fine said:

Totally don't buy this story that it was shipping damage as opposed to production printing damage, and if so, Dave should have gone after the shipping company instead of the printing company.  

Nevertheless, I thought CGC was supposed to be grading books based upon the condition they were in when they arrived at the LCS's.  At least that's what we were led to believe when certain books have unique well known production printing defects, and especially in the case of the early Marvel keys with their horrid eye gouging Marvel chipping which they give a soft pass to when it comes to grading.  Their rationale apparently being that these early Marvel keys had poor production printing, although isn't there still far more uber HG copies of all of the early Marvel keys than there are with the few much later regular HG copies of Cerebus 1.    

It's what I recall dave himself saying in some interview or other, back in the 80s?

As to CGC, no clue. But I have never seen a spine-damaged Cerebus 1 get a grade that seemed higher than it should have been. 

Edited February 12, 2022 by SuperBird

[WolverineX]

Found this list after searching for another thread.  Pretty interesting.  All these books are still hot even after all these years.

 

 

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 2/12/2022 at 6:57 PM, Wolverinex said:

Found this list after searching for another thread.  Pretty interesting.  All these books are still hot even after all these years.

 

 

Man if only I had the money, now like I didn't then  

[Rosland]

Just for reference, Cerebus #1 is about 7.75" wide by 10" high.

So about 1" wider than normal.