Zack Snyder's JUSTICE LEAGUE on HBO Max (3/18/21) 4 4

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 3/7/2022 at 11:37 AM, Jesse-Lee said:

Seriously though, if we consider 2008 the "starting point" of the MCU with the release of Iron Man - in that same time frame, DC has had 5 different Batmans/Bruce Waynes, 5 different Jokers, 4 different Jim Gordons, and so on, and that's just Batman. It's hard to stay true to characters when you have so many different versions of each.

I don't disagree with you that Cavill fits the mold of Superman from a look and feel standpoint; he does - I just don't like his acting and I'm not a fan of his, and I think he's just mediocre. But I think that Iron Man, Thor, Banner, Peter Parker, Black Widow, Doctor Strange, Vision, Black Panther and so on look like they came off the page.

I don't love DC's aesthetic/style in the TV shows either - their shows have always had the feel of "teen drama" to me. With the exception of Peacemaker, which I thought was incredible.

Looks are only 1 aspect to being faithful. Thor and Hulk, for example, are not that close in characterization to their comic book counterparts. Evergreen fans of those characters, and Spider-Man, are not all that happy with their MCU representation. I accept them for what they are, but also note the vast differences. It's okay to be different, and it's okay to like it. It's just disrespectful IMO to say that Marvel is more faithful than DC when I think it would be quite easy to prove that such a statement is not true.

Of the JL, there's only 1 guy who is not very close to his source material, but his movie later this year could change that. With the Avengers, some of the biggest names (mentioned before) are very departed from their personality on the pages.

What did not help Marvel before is that they did not have access to their entire library of characters. The Hulk may be different not by choice but because they could not distribute a solo film without working with Paramount (or whoever the Hel it is that owns those rights).

I don't really like any of the comic book TV shows. The MCU ones just feel like overly drawn-out movies, and yes, the DC ones all feel like high school.

[Gatsby77]

It's crazy that The Batman's domestic opening weekend was 38% better than the Justice League's - fully five years later to boot.

$128.5 million vs. $93 million.

[Bosco685]

On 3/7/2022 at 12:40 PM, Gatsby77 said:

It's crazy that The Batman's domestic opening weekend was 38% better than the Justice League's - fully five years later to boot.

$128.5 million vs. $93 million.

Uhmm. $134M for your point just to show the fixation.

[Jesse-Lee]

On 3/7/2022 at 10:51 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Looks are only 1 aspect to being faithful. Thor and Hulk, for example, are not that close in characterization to their comic book counterparts. Evergreen fans of those characters, and Spider-Man, are not all that happy with their MCU representation.

Well, that's an interesting and fair point. I will admit that I'm much more of a casual fan when it comes to Marvel comics as compared to DC. I've always been much more of a DC comics fan and much more well-versed in those storylines, especially the run from Crisis on Infinite Earths through Final Crisis, some of the New 52 (Bat-books mostly), and I'm mostly up to speed on the overall Rebirth era, etc. But my point is that from a Marvel standpoint, when I see Downy Jr. or Cumberbatch or Johansson or whoever, I'm like, oh yeah, I recognize that character. Or they even shift their comics universe to match the cinematic one, like in the case of Jackson as Nick Fury. There's a consistency there is quickly easy to see.

The fact that I'm much more well-versed in the DC comics universe could also be why I judge the DCEU more harshly compared to the MCU. But also, I think there are a lot of people who like the movies - both MCU and DCEU - who would consider themselves "casual fans," and this is another reason why I think MCU's model makes it more accessible to a broader audience. With a consistent universe, you can see a character show up in another movie and know who they are right away - that's Nick Fury, that's Black Widow, etc. With the DCEU and its multiple iterations of the same character, a casual fan - one who just likes the movies but maybe doesn't delve too far into the books - doesn't get that same experience.

Now, that all again comes down to personal preference - as @Bosco685 said, he doesn't want the DCEU to follow the MCU style; he prefers stand-alone stories or a mix in the middle. Obviously nothing wrong with that, it's just not what I would prefer - I like DC characters better for the most part and I do wish they would have done what Marvel did with the MCU.

Also, I think that if it's true that the MCU on the whole appeals to a broader audience because of their model, that can lead to more commercial success overall; they certainly do a better job of marketing, and that job is probably easier when people have a familiarity with the characters from previous movies and shows. You could argue that commercial success is only one indicator of success, and I'd agree with that, but it's an important one when it comes to making further movies.

[Gatsby77]

On 3/7/2022 at 12:44 PM, Bosco685 said:

Uhmm. $134M for your point just to show the fixation.

?
Box Office Mojo cites $128.5 million for The Batman and $93.8 million for Justice League.

[Bosco685]

On 3/7/2022 at 1:22 PM, Gatsby77 said:

?
Box Office Mojo cites $128.5 million for The Batman and $93.8 million for Justice League.

Box Office Mojo only updates 6 PM EST each weekday

I may be wrong. But something hints to $134M being the final number.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 3/7/2022 at 1:19 PM, Jesse-Lee said:

Well, that's an interesting and fair point. I will admit that I'm much more of a casual fan when it comes to Marvel comics as compared to DC. I've always been much more of a DC comics fan and much more well-versed in those storylines, especially the run from Crisis on Infinite Earths through Final Crisis, some of the New 52 (Bat-books mostly), and I'm mostly up to speed on the overall Rebirth era, etc. But my point is that from a Marvel standpoint, when I see Downy Jr. or Cumberbatch or Johansson or whoever, I'm like, oh yeah, I recognize that character. Or they even shift their comics universe to match the cinematic one, like in the case of Jackson as Nick Fury. There's a consistency there is quickly easy to see.

The fact that I'm much more well-versed in the DC comics universe could also be why I judge the DCEU more harshly compared to the MCU. But also, I think there are a lot of people who like the movies - both MCU and DCEU - who would consider themselves "casual fans," and this is another reason why I think MCU's model makes it more accessible to a broader audience. With a consistent universe, you can see a character show up in another movie and know who they are right away - that's Nick Fury, that's Black Widow, etc. With the DCEU and its multiple iterations of the same character, a casual fan - one who just likes the movies but maybe doesn't delve too far into the books - doesn't get that same experience.

Now, that all again comes down to personal preference - as @Bosco685 said, he doesn't want the DCEU to follow the MCU style; he prefers stand-alone stories or a mix in the middle. Obviously nothing wrong with that, it's just not what I would prefer - I like DC characters better for the most part and I do wish they would have done what Marvel did with the MCU.

Also, I think that if it's true that the MCU on the whole appeals to a broader audience because of their model, that can lead to more commercial success overall; they certainly do a better job of marketing, and that job is probably easier when people have a familiarity with the characters from previous movies and shows. You could argue that commercial success is only one indicator of success, and I'd agree with that, but it's an important one when it comes to making further movies.

While Black Widow looks the part, and sometimes acts the part, I feel like she departed further away from the character as her tenure went on. The entire thing is more complex than just that. In the MCU (since Phase 3 began), they seem hesitant to tell any small-scale stories, which hurts characters like that whose talents are only useful in a human setting.

The DCEU was (still kinda is?) poorly led, that is without a doubt. I've said it dozens of times, that the difference between it and the MCU is a guy like Kevin Feige. Though the MCU wasn't considered exceptional or a big moneymaker in Phase 1 until The Avengers, Feige stayed the course and his plan paid off. Snyder had a plan, but he didn't have the authority, so WB put their hands on almost everything and has been hit-or-miss for years. Feige was/is proactive while WB was/is reactive.

A lot of what you said here is on-the-nose.

Edited March 7, 2022 by theCapraAegagrus

[Jesse-Lee]

On 3/7/2022 at 1:28 PM, theCapraAegagrus said:

While Black Widow looks the part, and sometimes acts the part, I feel like she departed further away from the character as her tenure went on. The entire thing is more complex than just that. In the MCU (since Phase 3 began), they seem hesitant to tell any small-scale stories, which hurts characters like that whose talents are only useful in a human setting.

The DCEU was (still kinda is?) poorly led, that is without a doubt. I've said it dozens of times, that the difference between it and the MCU is a guy like Kevin Feige. Though the MCU wasn't considered exceptional or a big moneymaker in Phase 1 until The Avengers, Feige stayed the course and his plan paid off. Snyder had a plan, but he didn't have the authority, so WB put their hands on almost everything and has been hit-or-miss for years. Feige was/is proactive while WB was/is reactive.

A lot of what you said here is on-the-nose.

Yeah, I think this is all fair, especially the part about the studio taking the authority/autonomy away from creators like Snyder, which, when you dictate to your creative, it's always going to hurt the end product.

[Bosco685]

On 3/7/2022 at 2:37 PM, Jesse-Lee said:

Yeah, I think this is all fair, especially the part about the studio taking the authority/autonomy away from creators like Snyder, which, when you dictate to your creative, it's always going to hurt the end product.

Oh that is all fixed now. Toby Emmerich is saying all is well. Nothing to see here.

 

[Bosco685]

On 3/7/2022 at 1:19 PM, Jesse-Lee said:

Now, that all again comes down to personal preference - as @Bosco685 said, he doesn't want the DCEU to follow the MCU style; he prefers stand-alone stories or a mix in the middle. Obviously nothing wrong with that, it's just not what I would prefer - I like DC characters better for the most part and I do wish they would have done what Marvel did with the MCU.

Ahhhhh. That's not completely what I said.

I noted a connected universe shouldn't be the primary goal of these films. It is about standalone films that on their own merit achieve success. And if from time to time they connect, so be it. But that shouldn't detract from that individual story for the sake of worldbuilding.

I think the MCU has gotten so fixated on franchise building at times it gets distracting. And can possbily detract from the story. Black Widow felt like it was all about handing off the reigns so Yelena Belova could now take over.

[Jesse-Lee]

On 3/7/2022 at 2:05 PM, Bosco685 said:

Ahhhhh. That's not completely what I said.

I noted a connected universe shouldn't be the primary goal of these films. It is about standalone films that on their own merit achieve success. And if from time to time they connect, so be it. But that shouldn't detract from that individual story for the sake of worldbuilding.

I think the MCU has gotten so fixated on franchise building at times it gets distracting. And can possbily detract from the story. Black Widow felt like it was all about handing off the reigns so Yelena Belova could now take over.

My bad, I was paraphrasing.

[Bosco685]

On 3/7/2022 at 3:08 PM, Jesse-Lee said:

My bad, I was paraphrasing.

No harm done. My paycheck still comes in each week.

[Gatsby77]

It's crazy that The Batman's domestic opening weekend was 44% better than the Justice League's - fully five years later to boot.

$134.0 million vs. $93 million.

[Bosco685]

On 3/8/2022 at 6:25 AM, Gatsby77 said:

It's crazy that The Batman's domestic opening weekend was 44% better than the Justice League's - fully five years later to boot.

$134.0 million vs. $93 million.

Yet Toby Emmerich has been steering the wheel the entire time: genius!

[▫️]

I went to HBOMAX yesterday to rewatch a 5 minute scene and ended up watching a half hour before realizing I had to go back to work. Now I’m not so sure which version I prefer but still leaning towards Justice is Gray.

[Bosco685]

A discussion about the 2021 streaming analysis that was published by Variety.

 

[Bosco685]

 

[Bosco685]

Cyborg's story as the standout brings such fan appreciation

 

[Bosco685]

The anniversary of when a studio had to break from hiding its mistakes for the sake of building up the new streaming platform. And it turned out to prove its previous tampering was a huge lapse in creative judgment in not really understanding its own properties.

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 3/17/2022 at 5:21 PM, Bosco685 said:

Cyborg's story as the standout brings such fan appreciation

 

Won't have time for it today, as Fridays are NHL/COD with The Bois, but will definitely have it on tomorrow.

Didn't get to watch MoS or BvS this week, either. May watch all 3 tomorrow.