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THE MARVELS starring Brie Larson, Iman Vellani and Teyonna Parris (2023)
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Started by paperheart,

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Larryw7

Larryw7

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On 1/4/2022 at 1:13 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

By the way, I'm not attacking anybody. I simply invoked a worldwide prayer for peace and acceptance of solo Marvel movie super-heroes whether or not they are black, white, Asian, male, female, gay, or alien. I'm the one who seems to be getting attacked for that simple prayer to the true One Above All.

With all of the garbage going on in the world, I'm sure God has more important things to do. I don't know if comic book movies are very high on His list.

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@therealsilvermane

@therealsilvermane

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On 1/4/2022 at 1:45 PM, Larryw7 said:

With all of the garbage going on in the world, I'm sure God has more important things to do. I don't know if comic book movies are very high on His list.

If we can learn to unconditionally accept an actor portraying a superhero who doesn't resemble ourselves in skin color, race, gender, or other factor that makes us all different, then maybe we can learn to unconditionally accept those same people in other areas of life. Comic books can teach us a lot.

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valiantman

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On 1/4/2022 at 12:45 PM, Larryw7 said:

With all of the garbage going on in the world, I'm sure God has more important things to do. I don't know if comic book movies are very high on His list.

I have a feeling He still gets a little frustrated when both teams pray to Him for a win in every sport, every where, every time. hm

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chrisco37

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On 1/4/2022 at 1:55 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

If we can learn to unconditionally accept an actor portraying a superhero who doesn't resemble ourselves in skin color, race, gender, or other factor that makes us all different, then maybe we can learn to unconditionally accept those same people in other areas of life. Comic books can teach us a lot.

I don't remember anybody getting up in arms when Sam Jackson was cast as Nick Fury.  

I didn't like Shang Chi because the movie stunk.  Not because it was a movie about an Asian superhero.  Eternals?  The casting didn't bother me.  It just wasn't very good, IMO.  I don't care about those characters like I do Spider-Man or Captain America.  Heck, I didn't watch Ant-Man.  You know why?  I don't really care about the character.  

Black Panther was awesome.  Not because he is a Black superhero.  It's because it was a good movie and he's an interesting character.  

It's only in more recent years, since the "Dawn of Wokeness", that this stuff is even being talked about.  Usually by people looking to be offended by even the slightest of perceived slights.   

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valiantman

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On 1/4/2022 at 1:15 PM, chrisco37 said:

Usually by people looking to be offended by even the slightest of perceived slights.   

There are three types of people in the world right now:

1) People who are always looking to be offended.

2) People who are always offended that other people are always looking to be offended.

3) People who think the first two types are wasting their lives equally.

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theCapraAegagrus

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On 1/4/2022 at 2:15 PM, chrisco37 said:

I don't remember anybody getting up in arms when Sam Jackson was cast as Nick Fury.  

I didn't like Shang Chi because the movie stunk.  Not because it was a movie about an Asian superhero.  Eternals?  The casting didn't bother me.  It just wasn't very good, IMO.  I don't care about those characters like I do Spider-Man or Captain America.  Heck, I didn't watch Ant-Man.  You know why?  I don't really care about the character.  

Black Panther was awesome.  Not because he is a Black superhero.  It's because it was a good movie and he's an interesting character.  

It's only in more recent years, since the "Dawn of Wokeness", that this stuff is even being talked about.  Usually by people looking to be offended by even the slightest of perceived slights.   

This probably doesn't affect your interest whatsoever, but the Ant-Man movies are decent. The first one is particularly good IMO. Paul Rudd and Co. did a great job. I'd suggest a watch if you are ever looking for something to pass the time.

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drotto

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On 1/4/2022 at 11:52 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

 

Do you have a problem with some folks attacking Shang-Chi and Eternals for their movies' diversity of race and gender? Maybe you should ask those folks to stop, too. Also, the reason why it's "ad hominem", as you say, is because diversity in comics and comic book movies isn't a problem, but the people attacking that diversity are the problem, as I see it anyway. And if there is a God in the traditional sense, then I imagine that God would have a problem with it as well because that God created both man and woman and all the different races, and they all have the right to be solo super-heroes in their own movie regardless of whether that movie is well written or not as long as it earns money making exceptions for a down economy and fearful population during a deadly global pandemic.

The problem is the diversity that is being shown is not real diversity.   It is pandering and tokenization. The creation of characters based only on superficial characteristics, and failing to develope a well rounded and interesting person with a rewording arc, that is actually racist.  They are giving us characters based on traits and passing those traits off as personality. That is stereotyping, and that is racist (or any of the other ...ists). It is a corporation attempting to appeal to targeted groups in the quest of financial reward (which is often failing). It is nothing genuine. If movie or show fails, it is never a problem with the  product. It is the consumers' fault, because they did not "get" it, or they have napharious underlying tendencies. That is what is happening in entertainment now, and the MCU is guilty of doing this.

 

What is needed is real diversity.  That is, real characters, with real personalities, real strengths, and real weaknesses.  Characters that grow and change and are actually affected by the plot. Characters that have broad appeal, and not targeted appeal that relies on sharing those traits in the real world. Characters that are relateable to everyone, because they are great characters, not just a collection of traits.

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TupennyConan

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On 1/4/2022 at 2:18 PM, valiantman said:

There are three types of people in the world right now:

1) People who are always looking to be offended.

2) People who are always offended that other people are always looking to be offended.

3) People who think the first two types are wasting their lives equally.

Can I add some types? I can think of more types.

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paperheart

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On 1/4/2022 at 10:57 AM, valiantman said:

I have a feeling He still gets a little frustrated when both teams pray to Him for a win in every sport, every where, every time. hm

He only listens to tee-ball prayers because no team has ever lost a tee ball game

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@therealsilvermane

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On 1/4/2022 at 3:47 PM, drotto said:

The problem is the diversity that is being shown is not real diversity.   It is pandering and tokenization. The creation of characters based only on superficial characteristics, and failing to develope a well rounded and interesting person with a rewording arc, that is actually racist.  They are giving us characters based on traits and passing those traits off as personality. That is stereotyping, and that is racist (or any of the other ...ists). It is a corporation attempting to appeal to targeted groups in the quest of financial reward (which is often failing). It is nothing genuine. If movie or show fails, it is never a problem with the  product. It is the consumers' fault, because they did not "get" it, or they have napharious underlying tendencies. That is what is happening in entertainment now, and the MCU is guilty of doing this.

 

What is needed is real diversity.  That is, real characters, with real personalities, real strengths, and real weaknesses.  Characters that grow and change and are actually affected by the plot. Characters that have broad appeal, and not targeted appeal that relies on sharing those traits in the real world. Characters that are relateable to everyone, because they are great characters, not just a collection of traits.

I think you might be a little confused about the meaning of "pandering" and "tokenization" when it comes to film and television.

Pandering refers to giving the audience what they want. In fact, Spider-Man No Way Home might be the definition of a pandering film because it gave fans exactly what they wanted, a Spiderverse movie featuring the Spider-Mans of three different Spider-Man franchises swinging around together. However, one could say MCU films like Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant-Man, and Shang-Chi were not pandering at all because audiences weren't really asking for those films and their popularity upon release was unexpected. If the MCU were to truly pander to its audience, it would simply make another Iron Man movie or another Steve Rogers Captain America movie instead of the more challenging option of trying to make a Sam Wilson Captain America appeal to the general audience.

Tokenization is an older "industry term" used when most U.S. movie, television show, and commercial sets featured a mostly white cast and one or two black cast members (or other non-white ethnicity) was included for the sake of not making the cast seem all white. Nowadays, Hollywood and independent productions have figured out how to better tell the stories of all Americans, not just the white ones. And even if a Hollywood movie production wants its cast to be full of actors of different ethnicities for no real good reason, that's not tokenization, either. There is no Hollywood rule that says all your actors have to be white and if they're not white than you better have a darn good reason for not using all white actors. Again, tokenization is the U.S. industry practice of making one or two or cast members black or non-white in a large cast of mostly white actors in order to not look exclusionary of black or non-white people.

You accuse the MCU of pandering to the audience and tokenization apparently in a racial and gender sense, and you've referenced Shang-Chi and Eternals in past arguments. 

Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings doesn't pander to general audiences because the general audience never really asked for a Shang-Chi movie. Now, you could argue that Shang-Chi was made in part for the China market, but that's business sense, not pandering to the audience. The Shang-Chi movie isn't a tokenized movie, either. Shang-Chi is an actual character from Marvel Comics who is Chinese. The movie simply portrays that character and his story. I fail to see the tokenization in that. Shang-Chi is simply another character in Marvel Studios' menagerie of obscure super-heroes like Ant-Man and Guardians of the Galaxy who have become household names because of the popularity of the MCU. I don't care if you didn't like Shang-Chi or a couple of disgruntled fans here didn't, a lot of fans loved the movie and it has one of the highest RT user ratings of a MCU movie.

The Eternals is another movie that can't be pandering to the audience if the audience never asked for the movie to begin with. Nobody knew what to expect with this movie as it was an unknown. This movie pandered to nobody. As for the Eternals being guilty of tokenization, I assume you mean because the Eternals featured an international cast of actors from Korea, Pakistan, Mexico, and a Chinese-British actor. I'm not counting the two American actors, or the two U.K. actors in your "tokenization" accusation as I assume you aren't either. It's not tokenization if the movie calls for actors from every corner of the globe because these super-heroes actually represent beings who have lived all over the world but also aren't tied to one country. They are not only galactic beings, they are worldly beings. The story and the cast reflects that. I don't care if you didn't find any of the characters relatable. A lot of fans liked this movie and yeah, found some of the characters relatable. Social media has revealed that Makkari, the deaf Eternal, is now a fan favorite.

In the end, my response to your post is that Shang-Chi and Eternals was neither pandering to audiences nor did it feature token characters. The story called for the cast that we got, particularly in the ancientness and worldliness of the Eternals characters, and that's what we got.

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Cat

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On 1/5/2022 at 12:05 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

I think you might be a little confused about the meaning of "pandering" and "tokenization" when it comes to film and television.

Pandering refers to giving the audience what they want. In fact, Spider-Man No Way Home might be the definition of a pandering film because it gave fans exactly what they wanted, a Spiderverse movie featuring the Spider-Mans of three different Spider-Man franchises swinging around together. However, one could say MCU films like Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant-Man, and Shang-Chi were not pandering at all because audiences weren't really asking for those films and their popularity upon release was unexpected. If the MCU were to truly pander to its audience, it would simply make another Iron Man movie or another Steve Rogers Captain America movie instead of the more challenging option of trying to make a Sam Wilson Captain America appeal to the general audience.

Tokenization is an older "industry term" used when most U.S. movie, television show, and commercial sets featured a mostly white cast and one or two black cast members (or other non-white ethnicity) was included for the sake of not making the cast seem all white. Nowadays, Hollywood and independent productions have figured out how to better tell the stories of all Americans, not just the white ones. And even if a Hollywood movie production wants its cast to be full of actors of different ethnicities for no real good reason, that's not tokenization, either. There is no Hollywood rule that says all your actors have to be white and if they're not white than you better have a darn good reason for not using all white actors. Again, tokenization is the U.S. industry practice of making one or two or cast members black or non-white in a large cast of mostly white actors in order to not look exclusionary of black or non-white people.

You accuse the MCU of pandering to the audience and tokenization apparently in a racial and gender sense, and you've referenced Shang-Chi and Eternals in past arguments. 

Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings doesn't pander to general audiences because the general audience never really asked for a Shang-Chi movie. Now, you could argue that Shang-Chi was made in part for the China market, but that's business sense, not pandering to the audience. The Shang-Chi movie isn't a tokenized movie, either. Shang-Chi is an actual character from Marvel Comics who is Chinese. The movie simply portrays that character and his story. I fail to see the tokenization in that. Shang-Chi is simply another character in Marvel Studios' menagerie of obscure super-heroes like Ant-Man and Guardians of the Galaxy who have become household names because of the popularity of the MCU. I don't care if you didn't like Shang-Chi or a couple of disgruntled fans here didn't, a lot of fans loved the movie and it has one of the highest RT user ratings of a MCU movie.

The Eternals is another movie that can't be pandering to the audience if the audience never asked for the movie to begin with. Nobody knew what to expect with this movie as it was an unknown. This movie pandered to nobody. As for the Eternals being guilty of tokenization, I assume you mean because the Eternals featured an international cast of actors from Korea, Pakistan, Mexico, and a Chinese-British actor. I'm not counting the two American actors, or the two U.K. actors in your "tokenization" accusation as I assume you aren't either. It's not tokenization if the movie calls for actors from every corner of the globe because these super-heroes actually represent beings who have lived all over the world but also aren't tied to one country. They are not only galactic beings, they are worldly beings. The story and the cast reflects that. I don't care if you didn't find any of the characters relatable. A lot of fans liked this movie and yeah, found some of the characters relatable. Social media has revealed that Makkari, the deaf Eternal, is now a fan favorite.

In the end, my response to your post is that Shang-Chi and Eternals was neither pandering to audiences nor did it feature token characters. The story called for the cast that we got, particularly in the ancientness and worldliness of the Eternals characters, and that's what we got.

Nobody's reading that. 

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Cat

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On 1/5/2022 at 10:49 PM, CGC Mike said:

I would like this discussion to move away from the racial aspect.  

Oh,you had to read that post. My condolences, and please let me know if there's anything I can do for you. Do you need a meal train? 

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