The story of a promise made during the Korean War 9 9

[sfcityduck]

On 2/15/2022 at 5:52 PM, 10centcomics said:

The driving force behind the creation of a pedigree should never be an auction house or a retailer. They should emerge from the community of enthusiasts, collectors, and historians. And regardless of the source, there needs to be accompanying proof of the provenance or story. Otherwise, the financial incentive for "fudging the facts" or other shenanigans is just too high.

I believe that the original function of the pedigree concept was just a pre-internet way of giving the buyer comfort that the quality of the book was as represented.  The original notion that led to "pedigree" becoming a "thing" was that if a collector had seen some Mile HIgh books or knew others who had, the collector would have an idea as to what the quality of other Mile High books might be.  It was a convenient reference and source of comfort if you were buying through the mail. 

But over time that has changed, especially since CGC has removed most of the guess work from grading and PQ.  And because new "pedigrees" are being sold by Heritage before anyone in the comic community has even seen the books, they don't have a reputation for quality yet, haven't been deemed a pedigree by a consensus of collectors, and buyers won't get any comfort from those with prior experience with the ped.

Consequently, I'm not sure that there is any value to a pedigree designation in the internet and CGC age other than for tying a book to its back story.  BUT many collectors have taken an interest in more than just the quality of the books and I believe the back story has become a legitimate justification for a grading company to slap some sort of label on a comic that ties a comic to its provenance.  I just don't think the grading companies should be ones who should get to decide that some provenance's matter and others don't.

[sfcityduck]

On 2/15/2022 at 6:23 PM, JollyComics said:

I agreed. We were misinformed and misled too.

But not in any way that has cost buyers any money.  If anything, if I'm right, the desirability of these comics should increase.  

[JollyComics]

On 2/15/2022 at 8:32 PM, sfcityduck said:

But not in any way that has cost buyers any money.  If anything, if I'm right, the desirability of these comics should increase.  

Then who owned those books?  That is a question.  Heritage needs to clarify it for us.

[fast eddie]

Well done sir!

 

[BuckFlash]

I don't normally write here but I have been super fascinated by this "Promise Collection", and in fact, I own a few. I have been looking for hints to figure out where the collection may have come from. I may have found a hint on the Superman's Christmas Adventure that came from "The Bailey Co's Three Stores". I know some of these department stores are regional so maybe this is an additional clue that may match up where the Dumas folks may be from. Just a thought. 

[tth2]

On 2/16/2022 at 8:12 AM, sfcityduck said:

I'm unaware of any instance where the family of a pedigree OO has been bothered.

No OO has ever received the kind of money from the sale of their collection that this collection has.

[tth2]

What was the name of the father of Robert and Roger?

[sfcityduck]

On 2/15/2022 at 7:52 PM, BuckFlash said:

I don't normally write here but I have been super fascinated by this "Promise Collection", and in fact, I own a few. I have been looking for hints to figure out where the collection may have come from. I may have found a hint on the Superman's Christmas Adventure that came from "The Bailey Co's Three Stores". I know some of these department stores are regional so maybe this is an additional clue that may match up where the Dumas folks may be from. Just a thought. 

Bailey Co's Dept. Store is in Cleveland.  I considered that book as it could be a problem for my theory as the Dumas family is NOT in Cleveland.  But, that issue is a Christmas issue that came out during WWII.  And in WWII, people were moving around for jobs, and Cleveland had wartime industry.  Could have been a gift from a relative or friend of the family.  Roger and Bob had significantly older siblings.  But, of course I could be wrong.  That is a possibility I admit.

I've been told that the distributor markings on the comics are consistent with other books known to come from Connecticut.  I don't give that any weight because I can't confirm it.  Maybe others can.

Edited February 16, 2022 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 2/15/2022 at 9:02 PM, tth2 said:

No OO has ever received the kind of money from the sale of their collection that this collection has.

Other OOs have received millions from Heritage sales.  For example, Heritage touted sale of the Billy Wright Collection, which it acknowledged was consigned by his nephew, as one of the most valuable collections ever sold back in 2012.  I don't doubt that Heritage is not concerned that its consignors will face problems if revealed given they've sold collections by named collectors and original owners.  And I'm with the President of CGC with regard to the specific collection before us:

Quote

 

“As much as the family wants their privacy, inevitably, people are curious in this hobby and will piece things together, which is fine.”

Matt Nelson, President of CGC, Tales From the Flipside Ep. 180 (7/19/2021)

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 2/15/2022 at 9:04 PM, tth2 said:

What was the name of the father of Robert and Roger?

Roger is not named after his father Joseph.  So he is not a "Jr."  But, he was the junior member of his family of seven siblings.  And Heritage has been a bit ambiguous about the whole "Junie" thing, stating he was a "younger brother, known as Junie," as Heritage doesn't explain "to who?" and "why?". 

Frankly, as I said up above, I can't reconcile all the facts told by Heritage with the Bob and Roger story.  So if I'm right, Heritage will have some explaining to do (but it is my opinion that Heritage may have engaged in a bit of fudging ala the old tv show Dragnet for which I can't fault them much and which certainly didn't cause any economic harm to anyone) and if I'm wrong that's a possibility that I've repeatedly admitted could be the case.  If I'm wrong that the Promise Collection is tied to the Dumas brothers, I would appreciate it if Heritage would flatly say so.  Then, problem solved as I'll withdraw the speculation on this thread.

Edited February 16, 2022 by sfcityduck

[Crowzilla]

Have you attempted to contact Robert's son? Or are you giving the family privacy in hopes that Heritage will answer?

[sfcityduck]

On 2/15/2022 at 9:44 PM, Crowzilla said:

Have you attempted to contact Robert's son? Or are you giving the family privacy in hopes that Heritage will answer?

I believe that it is Heritage's role to admit or deny when it is Heritage who have marketed the book.  I don't know who the "consignor" is and it may not even be the family.  I have no contact information for any of the family members anyway.  My only attempt to contact someone for info concerned general background on the Korean War POWs (and it didn't work anyway). I've conducted an armchair investigation.  This message board is read by a small amount of people.  A post here will be unnoticed by the broader world if I'm wrong.  No need for me to "bother" anyone with my speculation when Heritage can set me straight so easily if I'm wrong, and I can then withdraw that speculation. 

My concerns about this story are just as I relate: The full story of the Promise Collection should be presented to the comic collecting community, not kept only within the purview of Heritage and presumably CGC, if it is of historic significance.  That is why I've shared my theory instead of seeking a confidential answer from Heritage.  If I were to sell a Promise Book I bought, I'd be pretty upset if I later learned that Heritage had withheld a story that might have put the collection in a different historical light and made me decide to keep it. 

Not sure why Heritage should be able to have it both ways - float a story to sell the comics, and be able to hide behind a cloak of anonymity when attempts to verify the story are made.  They should just come clean, at least enough to flatly deny that the Dumas brothers are the  Promise Collection brothers if that is in fact truthfully the case.  If that is the case, with no "bother" to anyone but the tens of people who have wasted time reading this thread, my speculation will evaporate into the dustbin of the old threads.

People who have read my threads on subjects like Dave Wigransky, the Four Immigrants Graphic Novel, the Nightingale comic, and other subjects should know that I am drawn to write on largely unknown comic history.  I collect not just comics, but knowledge about comics.  Which I believe should be shared.  

Edited February 16, 2022 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

One last bit of information to share until tomorrow evening.  As far as I can tell from reviewing DC comics cover dated 1951 in the Promise Collection, the latest on-sale date for any comic in the collection is December 1950.  This fits neatly with the fact that Roger was deemed to have gone MIA as of November 4, 1950.  I have reviewed telegram notifications to families that their soldier-sons were deemed MIA for later in the Korean War, and those notices were around 30 days after the date the soldier was deemed MIA.  I suspect that because Roger went MIA during a major Chinese offensive that caused the UN forces to retreat, extra delay occurred because it took time for his battalion to reach safety, account for which soldiers were MIA and which were confirmed killed in action, to report up the chain command, to get the info to D.C., and for the telegrams to be sent.  It was a high intensity period.  So it is plausible that the family would have received Roger's MIA notification later in December 1950 than a mere 30 days after Roger's deemed MIA date.

My assumption is that if Roger is "Junie" someone on the home front was buying comics to save for him from the time he shipped overseas until the time he was declared MIA.  It could even have been Bob, who only volunteered to go to the front line of Korea after he'd learned Roger was MIA and made his promise to his parents, but maybe more likely was Roger's parents.  Whatever the case, Roger's MIA date is plausibly in line with the end date of the Promise Collection.  Either the parents stopped buying the comics because he'd been declared MIA or Bob stopped buying them because he'd volunteered to go to the front lines.

But, again, this is speculation and I could be wrong.  It would be great to know if that is the case.  It would also be great to fill in the holes and mysteries in the Promise Collection story.

Edited February 16, 2022 by sfcityduck

[Pickie]

Thank you so much. My opinion is that you nailed it. Wow. Just wow.

[tth2]

On 2/16/2022 at 1:16 PM, sfcityduck said:

On 2/16/2022 at 1:02 PM, tth2 said:

No OO has ever received the kind of money from the sale of their collection that this collection has.

Other OOs have received millions from Heritage sales.  For example, Heritage touted sale of the Billy Wright Collection, which it acknowledged was consigned by his nephew, as one of the most valuable collections ever sold back in 2012.

The Billy Wright Collection might've gone for a few million at the most, which is not chump change, but it wasn't generational wealth kind of money like the Promise Collection has generated.  Berk's collection, while not OO, raised $5-6 million if I recall correctly, which I believe was the most a single collection had raised until the Promise Collection.

I could be wrong, but I can't think of any other collection (pedigree or otherwise) that would've raised even a few million.  All of the other big pedigrees were sold before the money got really big, and the pedigrees that have been brought to market in the last decade were SA or did not have enough major keys to generate millions.  But again, I could be overlooking some major pedigree or collection.   

[Nic8612]

On 2/15/2022 at 7:30 PM, MattTheDuck said:

I was thinking more of "bothered" in the same context that Lottery winners frequently find out they have a lot of long-lost relatives and other scam artists who need money.  I doubt anyone from the comic collecting community would be anything but respectful and fascinated by the story.

This. Whoever is selling this collection is now worth tens of millions of dollars. If they weren't wealthy already, this is a massively life altering event that will bring the roaches out of the woodwork

[chrisco37]

This is fascinating.  

[Crowzilla]

On 2/16/2022 at 7:42 AM, tth2 said:

The Billy Wright Collection might've gone for a few million at the most, which is not chump change, but it wasn't generational wealth kind of money like the Promise Collection has generated.  Berk's collection, while not OO, raised $5-6 million if I recall correctly, which I believe was the most a single collection had raised until the Promise Collection.

The Promise Phantom Lady #17 and Detective #140 combined sold for a higher price than the Wright Detective #27 (6.5) and Action #1 (3.0) combined when first offered.

[mwotka]

I wonder if the subterfuge is to protect a consignor that purchased the collection outright from the original owners.  Would seem like they could face some blowback, given the amounts being realized here.  Possibly even a lawsuit for not paying enough for it.  All speculation of course.  But you know HA is making several million (at least) on this from fees, and then CGC probably half a million plus in grading fees.  I really hope the family is seeing most of this money.  Or they are working with a consignor to split the profits, as they would of course be due something for helping to make a connection to sell it in this way to maximize value.

[telerites]

On 2/15/2022 at 8:16 PM, sfcityduck said:

Why would "Armand" appear on comics during the period Roger was in basic?  I can think of two possibilities: (1) someone else, probably his mother, was buying him the comics and putting his name on them (assuming his mother called him Armand) to keep them away from his siblings or (2) Roger felt the need to label his comics to keep them secure while he was in basic, and used Armand because it was more unique than Roger or Dumas (both pretty common in the military).  Again, this is speculation.  But it it is plausible.

A stretch but Armand means Army Man/Soldier (may be used that while he was in basic is related to the meaning - like I said a stretch)

French Baby Names Meaning:
In French Baby Names the meaning of the name Armand is: meaning soldier, or warrior.

German Baby Names Meaning:
In German Baby Names the meaning of the name Armand is: Army man; soldier. Famous Bearer: romantic actor Armand Assante.

Polish Baby Names Meaning:
In Polish Baby Names the meaning of the name Armand is: Soldier.

American Baby Names Meaning:
In American Baby Names the meaning of the name Armand is: Army man; soldier.