The story of a promise made during the Korean War 9 9

[MasterChief]

On 2/17/2022 at 3:45 PM, sfcityduck said:

I think the last word "Jean" could read as "Jeanette" with the fragment being the letter "t"s or the fragment could be part of a cursive capital "D"

Appreciate the response.

It's plausible that the last letter fragment is a cursive "D" followed by a perceptible period mark.

Thus, the inscription would read "This book belongs to Jean D."

Cursive hand writing taught to primary school students in the 1920s - 1940s followed the Palmer Method, which gained prominence in the early 20th century. That method fell out of favor in the 1950s for other penmanship methods.

Below are two pages from the Palmer's Guide to Business Writing taken from the Library of Congress. The inside front cover and page 29, which contains exercises for capital letters. They are followed by the Batman #3 original and enhanced inscription cutout.

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by MasterChief
typo

[MasterChief]

Poking around on the internet today and came across 1992 Congressional testimony by Robert Dumas concerning his brother Roger and other POWs.

The lead in to his testimony begins at 2:19:50 with the closing of a contentious argument between Senator McCain and a witness, followed by the Select Committee Vice Chairman commenting on the discussion and then asking who wants to go next. Bob immediately shoots his arm in the air as if saying "I got something to say!" That begins at 2:32:19.

The Dumas testimony is mesmerizing and, at times, chilling. The portrait he paints with his Northeastern accent breathes life into the story.   

**************

NOVEMBER 11, 1992
Soviet Involvement with Vietnam POW/MIA's
Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs heard from a panel of American representatives of the U.S.-Russian Joint Commission on POWs and a panel of POW family members during the afternoon session of the second day of hearings on POWs from the Korean War and the Cold War.

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by MasterChief

[sfcityduck]

On 2/17/2022 at 6:44 AM, Bird said:

in fact it appears that THIS investigation is being conducted with respect and civility towards OO of the books

 

I really appreciate this comment.  I conducted this research during my spare time, enjoying what I was learning, spread over many months.  I did not float this story just based on some quick Google hit.  I dug deeper by trying to find a direct connection between the Dumas brothers and comic books, and then I looked for an indirect connection based on the evidence of the comics themselves.  I looked for clues in the books sold, researched the "Armand" books, the on-sale dates of those books. the on-sale dates of the last books to enter the collection, delved deeply into the story of the Dumas brothers told in the media reports and government records and documentaries and other sources, and ultimately I found some plausible linkages between the Dumas brothers' story and the Promise Collection (relayed in prior posts).  Enough that I felt the theory deserved to be floated.  

However, at the outset of this thread I said:

 

On 2/15/2022 at 2:39 PM, sfcityduck said:

Does this story have anything to do with comic books?  Maybe or maybe not.  Through many many hours of research, I have found no mention of Bob and Roger and comic books.  Bob and Roger may have nothing to do with the Promise Collection.  Only Heritage, who possesses and is marketing all of the books, can answer that question.  ....  Honestly, I cannot reconcile a number of the facts relayed by Heritage in marketing the Promise Collection with the facts I have uncovered about Bob and Roger, including details regarding enlistment, date of the OO's death, etc.  So, there may be no connection at all. 

My assumption was that Heritage (or CGC which certified the pedigree and endorsed the story told by Heritage) would quickly advise me if my theory was incorrect. 

To date that has not happened. 

Still, I want to caution everyone that silence does not necessarily equate to an endorsement.  Heritage and CGC may feel it unnecessary to correct a post on a low profile message board.  They may feel their own interests are better served by not confirming or denying.  So I do want to re-emphasize, my theory could be wrong even if Heritage and CGC never come out and say that.

One reason I floated the theory is to gain the benefit of the observations and efforts of the many collectors who also value history, accuracy, and want to know the full backstory on the Promise Collection. Which is why I'm so grateful for MasterChief's posting of the Batman 3 and the Action 141 which contain markings that I had not previously considered.  One may support the theory, one may not - but we can't tell yet.

MasterChief just posted testimony by Bob Dumas.  I agree with this comment in his post:

On 2/19/2022 at 5:12 PM, MasterChief said:

 

The Dumas testimony is mesmerizing and, at times, chilling. The portrait he paints with his Northeastern accent breathes life into the story.   

 

I agree with that.  The story of Bob and Roger is mesmorizing and important.  Watching the videos and reading the media reports that have come out the past 40 years are educational and entertaining. 

However, I want to share a couple of observations that I learned from growing up with two reporters for parents and a long legal career in which I've examined more witnesses than I count under oath:

• No one's recollection is perfect;
• It is very hard to recall events from a few years, let alone a few decades, earlier; and
• People, whether under oath or in response to media questions, tend misspeak every once in a while - getting dates wrong, making small (and sometimes large) inconsistences when they tell stories at different times, etc.   

Bob Dumas was not immune from that.  As you dig deep into the many many tellings of his and Roger's story, you will find some inconsistencies.  To me, this is perfectly normal.  The product of many things - a failure of recollection that day, the stress of the situation, etc. 

Listeners, including reporters and family members, also make mistakes. This is also perfectly normal.  To give one immaterial example, Bob's obituary (of a type usually drafted with input or info from a family member) mistakenly states that Bob came from a family of 14 siblings, not the 7 revealed in numerous media reports over the years and the census reports for 1930 and 1940.  So mistakes can be made.  

The point being, if you start watching the videos of Bob, reading the articles, don't be surprised when you start seeing ambiguities.  They definitely exist.  

And perhaps one reason that Heritage (and CGC) aren't weighing in is that they are trying to work their way through some of these ambiguities.

Edited February 20, 2022 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

One of the hard things about this topic is that Heritage's own marketing story is also full of ambiguities which make it very difficult to confirm.  As for the contrasts between information being provided by Heritage, and what I could find about Bob and Roger, there are also some striking similarities and stark inconsistencies.    

Here's a chart made as part of my own notes which illustrates some of the similarities and disconnects:

FACTUAL DETAIL	HERITAGE’S MARKETING STORY SET FORTH IN THE INTELLIGENT COLLECTOR JUNE 2021	HERITAGE’S MARKETING STORY SET FORTH IN HERITAGE’S BLEEDING COOL SPONSORED POSTS	ADDITIONAL INFORMATION RELAYED BY HERITAGE REPRESENTATIVES IN INTERVIEWS	THE STORY OF ROBERT (“BOB”) AND ROGER ARMAND DUMAS
Older brother’s name:	“known as Robert”	Same.	N/A	Robert R. Dumas, but goes by “Bob.”
Older brother’s birth year and date of death:	No info.	No. info.	Brian Weidman stated on Tales from the Flipside May 13, 2021:  “he held his promise and he held it until he was 94 years old or however old he was.”   Weidman also stated he passed away “last year or so.”	Bob Dumas was born in 1930 and died at the age of 90 on February 6, 2021.
Younger brother Original Owner’s (“OO’s”) Name:	“known as Junie”	Same.	N/A	Roger Armand Dumas (not a “Jr.,” just the youngest, or most junior, member of his family –  unknown if anyone called him “Junie”).
Younger Brother birth year and date of death:	“Junie was killed in action. He was 21 years old.”	12/23/2021 Heritage sponsored post states: “The young fan who started collecting comic books at the age of eight years old in 1939.” E.g., Under the Heritage marketing story he was born in 1931 and died in 1952 (per info to left).	N/A	Roger was born in 1931. Roger was declared MIA in 1950.  Roger was a confirmed POW in 1953. Roger was deemed dead (no proof of actual death) in 1954.  Roger may well have lived to 1957 and beyond.
Older brother’s reason for military service:	“In the early 1950s, a young man known as Robert was drafted by the Army to fight in Korea.”	Same.	N/A	A credible local media report from the mid-1980s states that  Bob "joined the Army" on a date after Roger entered military service.
Younger brother’s reason for military service:	“enlisted in the hopes of keeping watch over Robert”	Same.	N/A	The above referenced local media report relays that Roger volunteered to join the Army before he turned 18 (he turned 18 in July 1949), also stating: "The six Dumas boys and their sister grew up in Plainfield, where the family lived in duplex housing owned by Lawton Mills, which had employed both parents since their immigration from Canada many years before. The youngest two; Robert and Roger, were especially close. 'We did everything together,' reminisces Bob Dumas, who was born 14 months before Roger. 'I was his protector. If he wasn't in the house by 6 o'clock, I had to go find him.' But when Roger and a boyhood buddy joined the Army, Bob decided to stay home for a while longer. Her sons told Mrs. Dumas not to worry about Roger. After all, the United States was not at war. And what the press called 'the Cold War' seemed too remote and abstract to worry about." In short, the Heritage story is a flipped ---script from the facts of the story of Roger and Bob.  Instead of the older brother taking care of the younger, as in the story of Roger and Bob, the Heritage marketing story has the younger taking care of the older.
The Promise:	“Junie had but one request of his big brother – that Robert take care of his collection of funny books should anything happen to him in battle.  Junie had been a collector since he was a little boy, not because of the value but because of the stories. Throughout the 1940s, he amassed a collection of more than 5,000 Golden Age books, and treated each with kid gloves.  Robert knew how dear those books were to his brother. So he promised him: Yes, of course. He would take care of those funny books. If something happened. God forbid.”	Same.	N/A	Unverified as to Bob and Roger.  No public mention is made of comic books by Bob in any of the public comments, media report, or documentaries reviewed by this author.  Instead, the well-known promise made by Bob Dumas was to his mother (twice – in 1950 and 1959) and father, and it was to never stop searching for his brother Roger so he could be brought home. .
Duration of the collection	“Throughout the 1940s, he amassed a collection of more than 5,000 Golden Age books, and treated each with kid gloves.”	Initially the same, but 12/23/2021 sponsored post states: “The Promise Collection is a set of nearly 5,000 comic books, 95% of which are blisteringly high grade, that were published from 1939 to 1952 and purchased by one young comic book fan.”   Also, the same sponsored post states: “1950 represents a significant reduction in the monthly volume being purchased by Junie for his collection.  There are over 500 issues in the Promise Collection from that year, down from over 900 issues in 1949.  As Junie hit about 21 years old in 1951, the volume further drops to about 100 comics for the entire year.”	N/A	I have found no information that Bob and Roger collected comic books.    (Heritage has not yet sold any Promise collection comics cover dated 1952.  Based on a review of DC comics, I did not find any with an on-sale date after December 1950.)
Younger brother OO’s Death:	No info.	“Then Junie was killed in action. He was 21 years old.”	N/A	Roger Armand Dumas was not killed in action (“KIA”).  He was initially declared MIA on November 4, 1950, when he was only 19 years old.  Later it was established he was captured.
Storage of the collection:	“When Robert returned home from war, he made good on that promise. With great care and caution, he boxed up his brother’s comic books and placed them in an attic for safe storage. And there they sat, undisturbed, for half a century.    In time, Robert and his family returned to those boxes to revisit what Junie had left behind. …  They went a step further in protecting them, bagging and boarding each one, then cataloging them on an ever-growing spreadsheet that now reads now like a collector’s dream come true.”   Note:  “half a century” means they sat undisturbed until 2000.	Same.	“Apparently, twenty years earlier they had bagged and boarded every single book and stored them in long boxes.”  Brian Weidman of Heritage, Tales From the Flipside Ep. 180 (7/19/2021).   “twenty years earlier” meant 20 years before Heritage was contacted, e.g. around 2001.	I have found no information that Bob and Roger collected comic books. But it was not germane to Bob's focus in his media interviews.   (As discussed in prior posts, I have found a potential explanation for why, if the Promise Collection brother are Bob and Roger, the books would have been properly stored 20 years ago.)
Older brother's  death:	No info.		In the “last year or so” – Brian Weidman of Heritage, Tales From the Flipside Ep. 180 (7/19/2021).	Bob Dumas died February 6, 2021.

               

 

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by sfcityduck

[MasterChief]

"One of my fears as a GI in 1965-1966 was to become a POW as I had lost faith in our government and military higher ups to protect us." --YouTube Commenter

I'm only into the Dumas story a couple of days, not months like sfcityduck, and many, many thoughts and emotions are running through my mind. At this point, I'm not even thinking of the books or a possible Dumas connection. Only the whitewashing of a disturbing story.

Being a veteran, with multigenerational family members who have served in the military and fought in combat (one of which killed during the invasion of Iwo Jima), I'm frankly dumbfounded, shocked, angered, and sadden to think that our government knowingly abandoned and left POWs behind. I'm still trying to process some of the things I've seen and read these past several days. The documentary film below, which tells the story of Roger Dumas, was icing on the cake today. It left me bewildered and speechless…

Missing, Presumed Dead: The Search for America's POWs
By J. Carlson, March 11, 2006
Video Librarian Review

Although America's armed services proudly claim that they "leave no one behind" during battle—and for the most part have done admirable work in getting prisoners of war home—some people ultimately "fall through the cracks." Narrated by Ed Asner, Missing, Presumed Dead tells the story of Roger Dumas—a POW captured by North Koreans during the Korean war—and the efforts of his brother Bob in trying to get the Pentagon to even acknowledge that his brother is a POW. Despite overwhelming evidence that Roger was alive in the mid-‘90s, Bob Dumas is rebuffed at every step by officials at the highest levels of government, including some current senators who are blocking any negotiations with North Korea. Combining congressional testimony, personal interviews, and historic newsreels to backup the allegations here, this film—which features Senator John Kerry, Senator John McCain, Representative Bob Dornan, and others—is sure to stir up a sense of disbelief and outrage in viewers over the callous and even devious handling of some American POW cases. Highly recommended.

Edited February 20, 2022 by MasterChief

[sfcityduck]

On 2/20/2022 at 12:53 AM, MasterChief said:

 

I'm only into the Dumas story a couple of days, not months like sfcityduck, and many, many thoughts and emotions are running through my mind. At this point, I'm not even thinking of the books or a possible Dumas connection. Only the whitewashing of a disturbing story.

Being a veteran, with multigenerational family members who have served in the military and fought in combat (one of which killed during the invasion of Iwo Jima), I'm frankly dumbfounded, shocked, angered, and sadden to think that our government knowingly abandoned and left POWs behind. I'm still trying to process some of the things I've seen and read these past several days. The documentary film below, which tells the story of Roger Dumas, was icing on the cake today. It left me bewildered and speechless…

The story of Bob and Roger Dumas is important, but little known, history.  The story is a very important part of the broader history of the Korean War and treatment of UN POWs.  Their story would make comics they owned more significant, not vice versa.  Which is why the question of whether there is a linkage between them and the comics deserves to be answered.  But, even if there is not a linkage, the story of Bob and Roger is worth knowing.

Edited February 20, 2022 by sfcityduck

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

On 2/20/2022 at 12:57 AM, sfcityduck said:

One of the hard things about this topic is that Heritage's own marketing story is also full of ambiguities which make it very difficult to confirm.  As for the contrasts between information being provided by Heritage, and what I could find about Bob and Roger, there are also some striking similarities and stark inconsistencies.    

Here's a chart made as part of my own notes which illustrates some of the similarities and disconnects:

FACTUAL DETAIL	HERITAGE’S MARKETING STORY SET FORTH IN THE INTELLIGENT COLLECTOR JUNE 2021	HERITAGE’S MARKETING STORY SET FORTH IN HERITAGE’S BLEEDING COOL SPONSORED POSTS	ADDITIONAL INFORMATION RELAYED BY HERITAGE REPRESENTATIVES IN INTERVIEWS	THE STORY OF ROBERT (“BOB”) AND ROGER ARMAND DUMAS
Older brother’s name:	“known as Robert”	Same.	N/A	Robert R. Dumas, but goes by “Bob.”
Older brother’s birth year and date of death:	No info.	No. info.	Brian Weidman stated on Tales from the Flipside May 13, 2021:  “he held his promise and he held it until he was 94 years old or however old he was.”   Weidman also stated he passed away “last year or so.”	Bob Dumas was born in 1930 and died at the age of 90 on February 6, 2021.
Younger brother Original Owner’s (“OO’s”) Name:	“known as Junie”	Same.	N/A	Roger Armand Dumas (not a “Jr.,” just the youngest, or most junior, member of his family –  unknown if anyone called him “Junie”).
Younger Brother birth year and date of death:	“Junie was killed in action. He was 21 years old.”	12/23/2021 Heritage sponsored post states: “The young fan who started collecting comic books at the age of eight years old in 1939.” E.g., Under the Heritage marketing story he was born in 1931 and died in 1952 (per info to left).	N/A	Roger was born in 1931. Roger was declared MIA in 1950.  Roger was a confirmed POW in 1953. Roger was deemed dead (no proof of actual death) in 1954.  Roger may well have lived to 1957 and beyond.
Older brother’s reason for military service:	“In the early 1950s, a young man known as Robert was drafted by the Army to fight in Korea.”	Same.	N/A	A credible local media report from the mid-1980s states that  Bob "joined the Army" on a date after Roger entered military service.
Younger brother’s reason for military service:	“enlisted in the hopes of keeping watch over Robert”	Same.	N/A	The above referenced local media report relays that Roger volunteered to join the Army before he turned 18 (he turned 18 in July 1949), also stating: "The six Dumas boys and their sister grew up in Plainfield, where the family lived in duplex housing owned by Lawton Mills, which had employed both parents since their immigration from Canada many years before. The youngest two; Robert and Roger, were especially close. 'We did everything together,' reminisces Bob Dumas, who was born 14 months before Roger. 'I was his protector. If he wasn't in the house by 6 o'clock, I had to go find him.' But when Roger and a boyhood buddy joined the Army, Bob decided to stay home for a while longer. Her sons told Mrs. Dumas not to worry about Roger. After all, the United States was not at war. And what the press called 'the Cold War' seemed too remote and abstract to worry about." In short, the Heritage story is a flipped -----script from the facts of the story of Roger and Bob.  Instead of the older brother taking care of the younger, as in the story of Roger and Bob, the Heritage marketing story has the younger taking care of the older.
The Promise:	“Junie had but one request of his big brother – that Robert take care of his collection of funny books should anything happen to him in battle.  Junie had been a collector since he was a little boy, not because of the value but because of the stories. Throughout the 1940s, he amassed a collection of more than 5,000 Golden Age books, and treated each with kid gloves.  Robert knew how dear those books were to his brother. So he promised him: Yes, of course. He would take care of those funny books. If something happened. God forbid.”	Same.	N/A	Unverified as to Bob and Roger.  No public mention is made of comic books by Bob in any of the public comments, media report, or documentaries reviewed by this author.  Instead, the well-known promise made by Bob Dumas was to his mother (twice – in 1950 and 1959) and father, and it was to never stop searching for his brother Roger so he could be brought home. .
Duration of the collection	“Throughout the 1940s, he amassed a collection of more than 5,000 Golden Age books, and treated each with kid gloves.”	Initially the same, but 12/23/2021 sponsored post states: “The Promise Collection is a set of nearly 5,000 comic books, 95% of which are blisteringly high grade, that were published from 1939 to 1952 and purchased by one young comic book fan.”   Also, the same sponsored post states: “1950 represents a significant reduction in the monthly volume being purchased by Junie for his collection.  There are over 500 issues in the Promise Collection from that year, down from over 900 issues in 1949.  As Junie hit about 21 years old in 1951, the volume further drops to about 100 comics for the entire year.”	N/A	I have found no information that Bob and Roger collected comic books.    (Heritage has not yet sold any Promise collection comics cover dated 1952.  Based on a review of DC comics, I did not find any with an on-sale date after December 1950.)
Younger brother OO’s Death:	No info.	“Then Junie was killed in action. He was 21 years old.”	N/A	Roger Armand Dumas was not killed in action (“KIA”).  He was initially declared MIA on November 4, 1950, when he was only 19 years old.  Later it was established he was captured.
Storage of the collection:	“When Robert returned home from war, he made good on that promise. With great care and caution, he boxed up his brother’s comic books and placed them in an attic for safe storage. And there they sat, undisturbed, for half a century.    In time, Robert and his family returned to those boxes to revisit what Junie had left behind. …  They went a step further in protecting them, bagging and boarding each one, then cataloging them on an ever-growing spreadsheet that now reads now like a collector’s dream come true.”   Note:  “half a century” means they sat undisturbed until 2000.	Same.	“Apparently, twenty years earlier they had bagged and boarded every single book and stored them in long boxes.”  Brian Weidman of Heritage, Tales From the Flipside Ep. 180 (7/19/2021).   “twenty years earlier” meant 20 years before Heritage was contacted, e.g. around 2001.	I have found no information that Bob and Roger collected comic books. But it was not germane to Bob's focus in his media interviews.   (As discussed in prior posts, I have found a potential explanation for why, if the Promise Collection brother are Bob and Roger, the books would have been properly stored 20 years ago.)
Older brother's  death:	No info.		In the “last year or so” – Brian Weidman of Heritage, Tales From the Flipside Ep. 180 (7/19/2021).	Bob Dumas died February 6, 2021.

               

 

 

Yes, there are discrepancies and no actual linkage from Robert dumas to the comic collection. But I find very persuasive the story of 2 brothers, one of which never came home from the war. Combine that with the fact that “Armand” is written on many Promise Collection covers, which happens to be the middle name of the lost brother. To me, that’s the smoking gun. It’s such an unusual name.

I think you’ve been very balanced in your summation, and avoided the temptation to sensationalize. Rather than hide any discrepancies between what you’ve found compared to what Heritage said, you’ve been open and honest. Youve sounded out your theory with Heritage and given them a chance to respond, and been met with a wall of silence. I think you and now lately @MasterChief have likely exhausted the historical record, and your efforts are a service to our little community.

This will likely be one of those things, like the the disappearance of Amelia Earhart, that will never be known. But in my mind, you’ve got the right brothers. 

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by GreatCaesarsGhost

[PDGray]

@sfcityduck - as I have told you in other threads - amazing research of the highest caliber.

Regardless of whether these are the correct brothers or not, the story of THESE two brothers deserves to be told, and BOTH of them to be remembered - one who never came home and another who kept the faith in spite of the odds against him.  I have spent a huge portion of my life paying tribute to those servicemembers who went before us and have nothing but respect for ALL of them.

 

PDG

[MrBedrock]

A question for sfcityduck... Considering the amount of information you have accumulated why are you so adamant that Heritage verify your theory? Why can't you just go to any one of the surviving Dumas family members and get verification? 

[adamstrange]

Just stake them out for signs of new-found wealth.

 

[sfcityduck]

On 2/20/2022 at 6:38 PM, MrBedrock said:

A question for sfcityduck... Considering the amount of information you have accumulated why are you so adamant that Heritage verify your theory? Why can't you just go to any one of the surviving Dumas family members and get verification? 

As a customer of Heritage and CGC whose has purchased a raw Promise book that will soon be winging its way to be encapsulated, I figure they might feel a greater obligation to say something than the family does.  After all, they are the ones telling the story used to market the books and certify it as a pedigree to collectors like me.

If I were a reporter, the course of action you recommend would make perfect sense.  But, I'm just a collector posting on a message board (which I know Heritage and CGC reps read) for a small audience of his fellow interested collectors.  This isn't my vocation, its just my hobby. But, maybe you have a point that someone will need to reach out to the family if Heritage and CGC don't want to address it.  

Edited February 21, 2022 by sfcityduck

[Bookery]

On 2/16/2022 at 1:08 PM, jimjum12 said:

My feelings as well. In the same way that many States now allow winners of lotteries to maintain their privacy, desiring that same anonymity in this case is just smart. The Family doesn't owe any of us anything, beyond the books that we purchased. The research is compelling and admirable, but blasting it out on a public message board that has already attracted many less than honorable people, is in poor taste where I come from. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

I agree that nobody "owes" an explanation.  But I disagree that others should feel bad for wanting to find out about it.  Human nature abhors an unsolved mystery.  And this pedigree was specifically hyped with a mystery attached.  Lotteries are not the same thing.  There are thousands of lottery winners out there.  I certainly don't care who they are, and it wouldn't mean anything to me if you told me.  Someone winning a lottery doesn't hype a product being sold to others.  And what makes this pedigree so unusual is the very name given to it.  All other pedigrees have been given either the original owner's name, the shop that purchased the collection, or the general location in which it surfaced.  This is the only pedigree named for an emotion.

Pedigrees and providence have always been important to any collectible.  Go through upcoming and recent Heritage auctions.  You'll find dozens hyped for the source or owner of the collection, whether it's rare books, coins, jewelry, art, etc.  Sometimes it's not the OO that's significant, but the person who amassed the collection.  I actually find the latter more significant, frankly.  A collector (such as Frank Robinson, as just one of many examples) who put together a collection over decades of the best or most significant copies he could locate, using his knowledge and persistence is to me more important is assessing my interest in a book rather than someone who simply stuck copies aside after they bought them off the newsstand.  But at any rate, the Promise collection was intentionally marketed with an air of mystique.  There follows there will be those wanting to crack the mystery.  I think it's better that someone diligent and respectful like sfcityduck is working on it... because others would fill that void eventually, perhaps with less care.

[path4play]

On 2/16/2022 at 1:08 PM, jimjum12 said:

My feelings as well. In the same way that many States now allow winners of lotteries to maintain their privacy, desiring that same anonymity in this case is just smart. The Family doesn't owe any of us anything, beyond the books that we purchased. The research is compelling and admirable, but blasting it out on a public message board that has already attracted many less than honorable people, is in poor taste where I come from. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

From the family perspective, imo they are just selling a valuable heirloom. It could have just as well been a painting, coins, a gun collection (or heaven forbid - train sets) etc., So, they had a relative that was able to, and intensely interested in building a collection.  As someone that likes pedigrees and signatures (but is not insanely wild about paying insane premiums) I'm on the fence, because its certainly fun doing research, detective work and building the comics book history.  But my desire to know is not overcome by belief in privacy.  Honestly, seems to be a bit of the "Streisand effect" going on here - in that the missing gaps and speculation are generating even more interest and speculation.  Frankly, the pedigree backstories are all not really that different in the big picture - someone loved the books enough when they we not valuable to save them (keys, quantity and grade vary).  Beyond that, they really only differ to same degree as to our own personal lives and families differ.  Frankly, the more pedigrees there are, the more they all start to morph into the same so and so, collected such and such, over x dates.... 

[Bookery]

On 2/21/2022 at 10:53 AM, path4play said:

 Frankly, the pedigree backstories are all not really that different in the big picture - someone loved the books enough when they we not valuable to save them (keys, quantity and grade vary).  Beyond that, they really only differ to same degree as to our own personal lives and families differ.  Frankly, the more pedigrees there are, the more they all start to morph into the same so and so, collected such and such, over x dates.... 

I suspect I'm alone on this, but I actually find all comic pedigrees a bit sad.  Because of the era they are from, there are really only two scenarios.  The comics were purchased, but never read (as in the case of much of the Promise Collection... unread as they awaited someone to return from war).  So that's obviously unfortunate.  The only other scenario involves someone compulsively purchasing issues, then spending years making sure they are tucked away in pristine condition (Church collection).  Today, that makes sense, because in modern times these items have taken on historical significance and, obviously, considerable value.  But at the time, these comics were virtually worthless.  And they had no historical significance as they were being issued.  They weren't even building a reading library as a book collector might have, because with the high condition, they at most could have been read but once.  There was no name for it then, but today this is called OCD.  We don't hold in elevated regard people who have filled the rooms of their homes with every newspaper they ever bought.  We call them hoarders, and feel bad for them.  In the 40s and 50s, and even early 60s, these comics would have little more value than last month's newspaper.  Today, a collector may or may not have OCD but it is still different... the items now have attained historical and monetary value.  Whether intending to or not, today's after-the-fact collectors are archivists and preservationists.  But in the 40s and 50s they were merely hoarders.  The collections are obviously fascinating... but again, for me, there is a certain sadness behind them.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

On 2/21/2022 at 10:18 AM, Bookery said:

There was no name for it then, but today this is called OCD. 

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

On 2/21/2022 at 10:18 AM, Bookery said:

I suspect I'm alone on this, but I actually find all comic pedigrees a bit sad.  Because of the era they are from, there are really only two scenarios.  The comics were purchased, but never read (as in the case of much of the Promise Collection... unread as they awaited someone to return from war).  So that's obviously unfortunate.  The only other scenario involves someone compulsively purchasing issues, then spending years making sure they are tucked away in pristine condition (Church collection).  Today, that makes sense, because in modern times these items have taken on historical significance and, obviously, considerable value.  But at the time, these comics were virtually worthless.  And they had no historical significance as they were being issued.  They weren't even building a reading library as a book collector might have, because with the high condition, they at most could have been read but once.  There was no name for it then, but today this is called OCD.  We don't hold in elevated regard people who have filled the rooms of their homes with every newspaper they ever bought.  We call them hoarders, and feel bad for them.  In the 40s and 50s, and even early 60s, these comics would have little more value than last month's newspaper.  Today, a collector may or may not have OCD but it is still different... the items now have attained historical and monetary value.  Whether intending to or not, today's after-the-fact collectors are archivists and preservationists.  But in the 40s and 50s they were merely hoarders.  The collections are obviously fascinating... but again, for me, there is a certain sadness behind them.

And let’s not forget the fun loving story behind Okajima 

[sfcityduck]

On 2/21/2022 at 7:53 AM, path4play said:

. Frankly, the pedigree backstories are all not really that different in the big picture - someone loved the books enough when they we not valuable to save them (keys, quantity and grade vary).  Beyond that, they really only differ to same degree as to our own personal lives and families differ.  Frankly, the more pedigrees there are, the more they all start to morph into the same so and so, collected such and such, over x dates.... 

Frankly, I have to disagree.  To me, pedigrees fall into the following categories:

(1) Collections for which there are absolutely no real backstory at all, other than that the collection is a really nice collection of OO comics that made its way to a dealer (e.g. Central Valley)..  

(2) Collections for which there is an unimportant backstory, just information on where the comics came from (e.g. Billy Wright) but nothing particularly special about that backstory.

(3) Collections for which the backstory of the collection is not as important as the impact of the collection to comic history (e.g. Mile High, Cosmic Aeroplane).

(4) Collections with an important association to the comic industry or with someone famous in comic circles which adds value and interest to the collection (e.g. Gaines, Thompson, Rosa, Crowley).

(5) Collections which have a backstory that touches important American history and which, as a result, have value added which derives from the comic collecting communities' passion for history (and obviously nostalgia) resulting in multiplied values for comics even in lesser grades because of that story.

For this last category of pedigree, as Heritage and CGC are well aware, it is the story which makes the pedigree.  The classic example is Okajima.  And the Promise Collection is being marketed as a new Okajima quality pedigree.  So I think that Heritage and CGC do have a responsibility to get the story right.  On the Youtube interview aired on Tales From the Flipside Ep. 180 in July 2021, the consignment director of Heritage and the President of CGC said this about the Promise Collection while being interviewed by Deno the host::

Quote

 

Brian: “It’s an incredible story.  And I’m telling ya, to me, the story makes this one.  You know, we’ve heard about the Mile High for years, we’ve heard about Larson, we’ve heard about San Francisco, but this one has the best story I’ve heard in my life. … The most important thing to me is the story.  It hits a heart string. ... You are almost in tears when you hear the story.”

….

Deno: “This, this to me, is a hybrid between the quality and condition-wise of the Mile High and then the emotional story aspect of the Okajima.”

…

Matt:  “You nailed it!  That’s perfect.  That explains the dual impact of this collection.  You know, because you’re right, the Okajima just recently, the past couple few years, the price, the multiples paid for those have exploded!  And its due to the story and it’s so cool to see these collections finally being recognized for something they always were, but the story, I don’t know, magnifies it.”

Brian: “It does! It absolutely does!”

Matt: “It’s the Mile High collection, almost, with a story similar to the Okajima.  And I think another interesting angle to it is this is unique in that somebody asked somebody else to be a curator or a protector or savior of their comic collection in, like, 1950.  And so that is really unique because he held his promise and he held it until he was 94 years old or however old he was.  He held it the whole time.  It was more important to him to hold that promise than cash in and get the books, you know, within his lifetime. Because he was there with his brother 70 years, 60 something years ago, and went through that horrible thing with him and left knowing that promise was that important, you know.”

….

Brian:  "The story, to me, is more important than anything this collection has to offer.”  

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by sfcityduck

[path4play]

On 2/21/2022 at 11:32 AM, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

And let’s not forget the fun loving story behind Okajima 

Nor the fact that they have been working on researching the story https://50objects.org/ for several years now.  I suspect when published it will be clear they have more resources and ability to dig into all the facts than anyone in the history of this pedigree.

 

[sfcityduck]

On 2/21/2022 at 8:18 AM, Bookery said:

 Whether intending to or not, today's after-the-fact collectors are archivists and preservationists.  But in the 40s and 50s they were merely hoarders.  

Again I have to disagree.  Comic collecting really began as soon as comic books started being published.  Collecting WAS a "thing" back then - for a variety of things such as coins, books, etc.  It was inevitable that once comics started being published there would be people who would save comics for a motivation other than OCD hoarding, and that's largely what happened..  The interesting question is what motivated their collecting?  And did they ever go beyond that collecting into the realm of becoming actual fans?  

That's a topic I addressed in this thread you might enjoy, if you haven't seen it:

Dave Wigransky, the subject of the above thread, collected comics because he had the exact same passion for comic art and history and entertainment that we modern collectors do.  

Edgar Church and the compiler of the Cosmic Aeroplane pedigree collected comics because they used them as art references.

Gaines and Crowley put aside comics to have a record of their work.

Multiple pedigrees were likely compiled by speculators, who set aside the number 1 issues of publications in the hope that they would someday be valuable (e.g. Windy City).

I could go on. But while I truly do agree that I find the history of some pedigrees as depressing as you do (they add no value to me), that is definitely NOT the case with a pedigree like Okajima!  The Okajima pedigree is both (1) a symbol of a very sad chapter in our history when American citizens like that OO were evicted from their homes, forced into internment camps with only the possessions they could carry, and forced to endure harsh conditions for years and (2) powerful evidence that the American citizens who were the victims of that conduct were just like you and me, Americans who loved comic books so much that they chose to cherish and preserve them throughout a very trying time in their lives.  Which is why lesser graded Okajima's still sell for multiples over equivalent and better graded copies.

The stories do matter.  Heritage knows it, CGC knows it, and when they tell them I think they should feel obliged to make sure the proper story is getting out to the comic collecting community.  

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 2/21/2022 at 8:35 AM, path4play said:

Nor the fact that they have been working on researching the story https://50objects.org/ for several years now.  I suspect when published it will be clear they have more resources and ability to dig into all the facts than anyone in the history of this pedigree.

 

As a collector of art by arguably the most important Japanese-American artist, Chiura Obata, including internment camp art, I have a different perspective on that due to my interest in that area.  50 Objects is a really great site.  It is devoted to illustrating the injustice of the internment during WWII, and I have enjoyed and highly recommend the site.  However, the site is run by activists.  And as far as I can tell, the delay in the publishing of the Okajima story appears to be because they have been focusing their attention, as activists, on a controversy that erupted over the Topaz Internment Camp national monument site which is extremely important to them.  I have been looking forward to reading their Okajima piece, but it's been "coming soon" for many months.  I suspect the delay is not due to a furious researching of that story, but the other things they are involved in. 

Edited February 21, 2022 by sfcityduck