Just want to confirm that this eBayer doesn't know what he's talking about 1 1

[Poekaymon]

So I sold a $200 raw on the Bay.  Multiple accurate pictures.  Included the usual disclaimer about not being a professional and buyers need to judge condition solely on the pics.  No returns accepted.  Etc.

Sure enough, a few days after the buyer receives it, he opens a claim with eBay stating that it doesn't match the description.  I asked him what the problem was because my pics were good, so I wanted to make sure it didn't get damaged in shipping, but that wasn't it--he accused me of trimming the book and attached the pics below:

Now I don't know much about trimming, but I am pretty sure the goal  it is to make the book look better--not worse.  And I'm a little bit offended, not just because he thinks I'm the next Dupcak, but at the notion that I'd do such a crappy job.  I've never trimmed a book in my life, but my first effort would be better than this.  I mean who would leave a huge bulging overhang (giggity) like that?  Anyway, I did some searching on these forums and found other threads on this, like this one, that seemed to be similar:  

 

I told him it was much more likely to be the opposite problem--that it simply had an untrimmed page due to a not uncommon printing error.  I even gave him the link to the forums, and that particular thread above, and asked him to come get some second opinions before pushing the return on me. 

Nope.  He refused to do so and steadfastly maintained that it had been tampered with.  He said if he sent it to CGC it'd get a Restored grade.  I argued with him a little bit because it all seemed too idiotic for me.  For one thing, that untrimmed overhang was visible right in my listing pictures!  So arguing that it didn't match the description was completely baseless, and I was pretty tempted to deny the return outright, though my understanding is eBay is pretty hostile to sellers.  Also, just from a common sense perspective, I don't see why anyone would "trim" a page like that.  And I bought this thing for pretty cheap, long before the recent price run ups, so it wouldn't have even been worth the time.

He finally said: "We just disagree about the condition of the book.  Please refund me."  That response bothered me as much or more than the trimming accusation because even if it was true, I expressly did not guarantee a grade and he was to make his own determination based on the pictures--in other words, we had nothing to disagree on as to condition. Was really tempted to respond "We don't disagree at all--I agree with you 100% that the book is pure trash.  But it's exactly what was pictured and that was all you were guaranteed.  Have a nice day."  But I decided that there are more important things going on in the world right now than my ebay sales, so I just refunded him.  

Anyway, besides the rant, I actually do want to get a second opinion from you learned folks before I relist this book.  I mean if other buyers are going to accuse me of trimming and demand refunds, I may as well break out an Xacto and a ruler and fix this crappy "trim job" myself.  

Edited February 28, 2022 by Poekaymon

[William-James88]

Just to give you some facts, CGC does consider it trimming even though the trimming is a bad job. And since trimming is considered restoration (or grounds for a purple label) not disclosing it in the description, even though images may show the "restoration" does make you at fault. 

I don't know what is going on exactly with the book but with weird stuff like that I would not have put it up on e-bay without bringing attention to the abnormality in the cut in the description. You are rolling the dice when selling stuff like this in today's market on ebay. You may not be in the wrong, but I get where the customer is coming from since the abnormality was not described.

Also this part,  "Also, just from a common sense perspective, I don't see why anyone would "trim" a page like that." has 0 bearing anymore. I have seen enough nonsense garbage since joining this board that there is no common sense. 

Bottom line, if the comic looks like it may have been tampered with (no matter how non sensical that may be) and if you did not describe it, then that's enough grounds for e-bay to force the refund.

Edited February 28, 2022 by William-James88

[Poekaymon]

On 2/28/2022 at 3:22 PM, William-James88 said:

Just to give you some facts, CGC does consider it trimming even though the trimming is a bad job. And since trimming is considered restoration (or grounds for a purple label) not disclosing it in the description, even though images may show the "restoration" does make you at fault. 

I don't know what is going on exactly with the book but with weird stuff like that I would not have put it up on e-bay without bringing attention to the abnormality in the cut in the description. You are rolling the dice when selling stuff like this in today's market on ebay. You may not be in the wrong, but I get where the customer is coming from since the abnormality was not described.

 

As to the former, of course they do.  I only mentioned the "Bad trim job" stuff as a common sense kind of thing to support that I didn't monkey with the book.  If he just said "This has a factory abnormality that I didn't notice and I'm not happy with it, would you please make an exception?"  Then I wouldn't have even made the post.  He straight up accused me of trimming it--I woulda done a better job than this. 

As to the second part, I didn't disclose it because I never even noticed it.  I just went back to my listing to make sure it was visible and it was.  But I had no idea.  But now that I do know about it, would I have "described the abnormality"?  No, I don't think I would have.  Just like I wouldn't describe bindery tears, ticks, etc.  I take better pics than 90% of ebay listings and say "decide for yourself or don't bid."  End of story.  Now that would be different if I actually thought it had been trimmed or color touched or whatever.  Or say if it had a doodle on page 18.  Obviously I would call stuff like that out.  But I think this is a legit, factory book, and have no interest in running down every visible flaw.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Poekaymon

[MattTheDuck]

On 2/28/2022 at 12:32 PM, Poekaymon said:

As to the former, I know that.  I only mentioned that part as a general, common sense kind of thing because I found the accusation offensive.  If he just said "This has a factory abnormality that I didn't notice and I'm not happy with it, would you please make an exception?"  Then I wouldn't have even made the post.  He straight up accused me of trimming it--I woulda done a better job than this. 

As to the second part, I didn't disclose it because I never even noticed it.  I just went back to my listing to make sure it was visible and it was.  But I had no idea.  But now that I do know about it, would I have "described the abnormality"?  No, I don't think I would have.  Just like I wouldn't describe bindery tears, ticks, etc.  I take better pics than 90% of ebay listings and say "decide for yourself or don't bid."  End of story.  Now that would be different if I actually thought it had been trimmed or color touched or whatever.  Or say if it had a doodle on page 18.  Obviously I would call stuff like that out.  But I think this is a legit, factory book, and have no interest in running down every visible flaw.

Unfortunately, the world we live in doesn't allow for common sense, or the ability to enforce a "buyer beware" policy.  No one believes they are responsible for their own errors in judgment.  This trend of blaming someone or something else for your own mistakes has been going on - and expanding - my entire life.  I will say holding something in your hand is quite different from seeing a picture of it, but I think you provided appropriate information and pictures so the buyer should have known what he was receiving. 

I bought a book on the Boards that had an undisclosed detached centerfold, but I also failed to ask about interior problems before .  That's my fault, but now I know to be more cautious with that seller.

Sorry you had this experience, but there's no protection from unscrupulous buyers on eBay, apparently.

[Poekaymon]

On 2/28/2022 at 3:56 PM, MattTheDuck said:

I bought a book on the Boards that had an undisclosed detached centerfold, but I also failed to ask about interior problems before .  That's my fault, but now I know to be more cautious with that seller.

See now that I would definitely disclose.  Not visible from outside pics and a pretty big issue besides. 

[Beastfeast]

First, you have to accept returns on Ebay.  Regardless if you're right or wrong in a situation, that's just the way it is if you plan on selling there.  

Second, "I'm not a professional" is a giant weasel-phrase for not knowing how to grade a comic.  Just say the grade, please.  Facebook seller groups have really amplified this idea of writing, "I'm not a professional.  please judge the condition yourself."  as a catch all.  This is largely beyond the point of your particular circumstance but don't write that anymore.  It's a BIG red flag.  

Third, I think you're missing the point about what trimming is or can be and only focusing on you being upset that they would accuse you of trimming.  If the anomaly isn't disclosed and they're unhappy, offer the return.  You both get to not deal with each other in the future and it's settled.  Now, you can relist it with that defect pictured and acknowledged and this won't happen again, hopefully.   

[Poekaymon]

On 2/28/2022 at 4:31 PM, Beastfeast said:

First, you have to accept returns on Ebay.  Regardless if you're right or wrong in a situation, that's just the way it is if you plan on selling there.  

Second, "I'm not a professional" is a giant weasel-phrase for not knowing how to grade a comic.  Just say the grade, please.  Facebook seller groups have really amplified this idea of writing, "I'm not a professional.  please judge the condition yourself."  as a catch all.  This is largely beyond the point of your particular circumstance but don't write that anymore.  It's a BIG red flag.  

Third, I think you're missing the point about what trimming is or can be and only focusing on you being upset that they would accuse you of trimming.  If the anomaly isn't disclosed and they're unhappy, offer the return.  You both get to not deal with each other in the future and it's settled.  Now, you can relist it with that defect pictured and acknowledged and this won't happen again, hopefully.   

Unsurprisingly, I disagree with most of your opinions here.

1.  There's specifically an option for not accepting returns.  That's all I meant.  I selected that option, so the listing says Seller Does Not Accept Returns.  Now, maybe you mean it doesn't matter as a practical matter.  As far as I know, that's not entirely true.  For example, if they message you and say they just don't want it anymore.  I am pretty sure if you have no returns listed, they won't get a return.  Now they can obviously lie and say it doesn't match pictures or whatever, but I am pretty sure saying "you must accept returns" as a blanket statement is factually incorrect.

2.  I'm a newbie, as most people who read this forum know.  I dealt almost exclusively in CGC 9.8s for most of my time in the hobby.  Now that I look at raws, I constantly see people write "Mint" or "9.8--CGC it!" or promise a particular grade.  Usually I open those and right away see a dozen large color-breaking ticks and I'm like: what?  But I digress.  I respect sellers who just put up pics and say "I have no idea what this is, decide for yourself."  Maybe they make less money, but that's fine.  I kind of split the difference in that I give an estimate and point out a few things (sometimes), but I want it to be very clear that it's on the buyer to do his diligence, or ask questions, or ask for additional pictures, etc, because I don't want to get in a debate when someone invariably disagrees with my assessment.  

3.  I gave them a full refund before even creating this thread.  The purpose of the post, as I have written twice now on this page, beyond venting, was to get a second opinion on whether the defect in question arose during production (as I think) or at the hands of an unscrupulous aftermarket trimmer (as the Buyer thinks--I mean it's possible--maybe Stevie Wonder got into comic book restoration).  That will determine how I do a future listing--if I bother to list it again at all.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Poekaymon

[Poekaymon]

On 2/28/2022 at 5:00 PM, VG+ said:

I don't. I respect sellers who know how to grade.

I respect people who manage not to get banned on comic book message boards.  As an aside, what recent banned member are you? 

Edited February 28, 2022 by Poekaymon

[Domo Arigato]

On 2/28/2022 at 2:13 PM, Poekaymon said:

Included the usual disclaimer about not being a professional and buyers need to judge condition solely on the pics.  No returns accepted.  Etc.

 

[Poekaymon]

On 2/28/2022 at 5:03 PM, VG+ said:

How does that change anything? You wanted opinions, you got 'em. You just don't like some of the answers is all.

Just curious.  

Anyway, the opinion I requested was not whether ebay forces returns or whether I should refund the book (those topics aren't that relevant because I already refunded the buyer before even posting this thread--but I know you don't really read the posts because my first two responses to your questions were simply quotes of stuff already posted).  The opinions requested were on whether or not the book had been aftermarket trimmed.  

Edited February 28, 2022 by Poekaymon

[shadroch]

I'm going to guess that that page was folded over and missed being trimmed. The original buyer noticed it was folded and unfolded it.  It got bagged, sold, maybe resold  several times and nobody opened the bag. 

[Domo Arigato]

Can anyone tell me what book this is from?

 

 

[ianders0n]

On 2/28/2022 at 4:49 PM, Poekaymon said:

Unsurprisingly, I disagree with most of your opinions here.

1.  There's specifically an option for not accepting returns.  That's all I meant.  I selected that option, so the listing says Seller Does Not Accept Returns.  Now, maybe you mean it doesn't matter as a practical matter.  As far as I know, that's not entirely true.  For example, if they message you and say they just don't want it anymore.  I am pretty sure if you have no returns listed, they won't get a return.  Now they can obviously lie and say it doesn't match pictures or whatever, but I am pretty sure saying "you must accept returns" as a blanket statement is factually incorrect.

2.  I'm a newbie, as most people who read this forum know.  I dealt almost exclusively in CGC 9.8s for most of my time in the hobby.  Now that I look at raws, I constantly see people write "Mint" or "9.8--CGC it!" or promise a particular grade.  Usually I open those and right away see a dozen large color-breaking ticks and I'm like: what?  But I digress.  I respect sellers who just put up pics and say "I have no idea what this is, decide for yourself."  Maybe they make less money, but that's fine.  I kind of split the difference in that I give an estimate and point out a few things (sometimes), but I want it to be very clear that it's on the buyer to do his diligence, or ask questions, or ask for additional pictures, etc, because I don't want to get in a debate when someone invariably disagrees with my assessment.  

3.  I gave them a full refund before even creating this thread.  The purpose of the post, as I have written twice now on this page, beyond venting, was to get a second opinion on whether the defect in question arose during production (as I think) or at the hands of an unscrupulous aftermarket trimmer (as the Buyer thinks--I mean it's possible--maybe Stevie Wonder got into comic book restoration).  That will determine how I do a future listing--if I bother to list it again at all.

I'm new to this but I agree with you 100%. I'm not a professional grader so why would I pretend to be? I could just go around calling everything VF or NM and call it a day. I feel like that is where you get into trouble, not the other way around. Say I'm selling a book and calling it a 6.0 and after the buyer gets it and CGCs it comes back as a 5.0. Do they get their money back because I put down an inaccurate grade?

Especially in this situation where the defect was literally on the listing photos I feel like the buyer doesn't have a leg to stand on. They saw the defect and chose to purchase it knowing exactly what the book looked like.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 2/28/2022 at 10:09 PM, Domo Arigato said:

Can anyone tell me what book this is from?

 

 

Hulk 340

[Bird]

On 2/28/2022 at 3:13 PM, Poekaymon said:

so I just refunded him

if you say you do not accept returns, then do not accept the return. Make ebay rule against you, there is a good chance they will rule for you if you present your case appropriately.

if you say no returns, you have to actually not accept returns. it is a box you check about your behavior, not the other person's. and did you refund before receiving the item in return?

[Poekaymon]

On 2/28/2022 at 5:13 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Hulk 340

Correct.  I would have just posted the listing, which I guess he is trying to find now, but decided it did not bear on whether or not what was depicted was a production error or a sloppy trim job.

[zzutak]

On 2/28/2022 at 12:13 PM, Poekaymon said:

Now I don't know much about trimming, but I am pretty sure the goal  it is to make the book look better--not worse.  Also, just from a common sense perspective, I don't see why anyone would "trim" a page like that. Anyway, besides the rant, I actually do want to get a second opinion from you learned folks before I relist this book.

I think your focus on a "common sense" objective is too narrow.  "To improve the appearance or grade" is only one of many reasons a previous owner may have had when he/she tinkered with his/her funny book.  We've all seen examples of beards and mustaches drawn on as-printed faces.  Since this thread is concerned with poor trim jobs, here's a very on-point example:

 

• Me: The right edge of this book has been trimmed with scissors.
• Seller:  The book was too wide to fit in the bag.  I trimmed some of the pages so it would fit.
• Me: 

100% true.  No lie, no exaggeration.  Resolved amicably, quickly, and to my complete satisfaction. 

[Poekaymon]

On 2/28/2022 at 5:17 PM, Bird said:

if you say you do not accept returns, then do not accept the return. Make ebay rule against you, there is a good chance they will rule for you if you present your case appropriately.

if you say no returns, you have to actually not accept returns. it is a box you check about your behavior, not the other person's. and did you refund before receiving the item in return?

I agree, I shoulda had more backbone.  But I guess then he'd just leave negative feedback and probably write something about me being a trimmer as well.  It's kind of sad that sellers a bit hostage now that you can't leave buyer feedback, but oh well.

[Domo Arigato]

 

How does this answer his question?  Buying the book new would have been pretty cheap and long before the recent price run up.

 

[Poekaymon]

On 2/28/2022 at 5:20 PM, zzutak said:

I think your focus on a "common sense" objective is too narrow.  "To improve the appearance or grade" is only one of many reasons a previous owner may have had when he/she tinkered with his/her funny book.  We've all seen examples of beards and mustaches drawn on as-printed faces.  Since this thread is concerned with poor trim jobs, here's a very on-point example:

 

• Me: The right edge of this book has been trimmed with scissors.
• Seller:  The book was too wide to fit in the bag.  I trimmed some of the pages so it would fit.
• Me: 

100% true.  No lie, no exaggeration.  Resolved amicably, quickly, and to my complete satisfaction. 

Fair enough.  Do the pics I posted look, in your opinion, like a production issue or a prior owner tinkering?