Beware…Fake high value CGC books in Pacific Northwest 14 14

[MarvelsKryptonite]

These are the comments made by the company that the OP sent these books to for consignment, and who cracked the cases to determine their invalidity:

“We ran into a pretty unusual situation last week that's worth sharing with you. A long-time consignor was sending in two pretty notable comics to consign with us: a Hulk #1 CGC 6.5, and a coverless Captain America Comics #1 (not slabbed) from the Golden Age Captain America series. The Hulk 1 would probably be worth in the range for $40,000 to $55,000, and the Captain America Comics #1 would be worth at least several thousand even with no cover.

“When our inventory team received the books to get them recorded into inventory, they were immediately concerned that the books did not seem right. For the Captain America Comics #1 coverless, multiple aspects of the paper and printing quality did not match what we would expect from a real Golden Age comic. For the Hulk 1, the case appeared to have been tampered with, and both the comic and the CGC label looked a little off. Our inventory team saw the problems, but it was a reasonably well executed fake that could have fooled a lot of people.

“We were able to confirm that both books were counterfeits. The Captain America Comics had been printed on modern paper and made to look old. For the Hulk 1, the book inside the slab was a complete fake. The counterfeiter produced his own CGC label, slipped the label and fake comic inside the slab, and sort of managed to seal up the slab. Two of the corners were weirdly distorted and stretched, but the plastic wasn't obviously broken or cracked.

“In further discussions with the consignor and others in the collector community, it appears that these books plus some others originated from a single source, a scammer operating in the vicinity of Idaho, Montana, and the Pacific Northwest. Multiple collectors in the area have compared notes and found books that were purchased under similar circumstances from what appears to be the same person. Though the books may have originated there, once in circulation they could be traded anywhere by unsuspecting sellers.

“My impression is that counterfeiting comics is a pretty rare phenomenon, and is hard to do when buyers are alert, but as comic values have risen they have become more attractive targets for scammers and counterfeiters. My advice for collectors would be: stick to buying from known sources with good reputations, and be especially wary of making large purchases from people you know only through Craigslist/Instagram/Facebook. When large amounts of money are involved, closely inspect the comic and the condition of the slab and don't assume that the presence of a CGC label guarantees everything is okay. And as always remember the rule of thumb that if it seems too good to be true it often is. Don't let the prospect of scoring a major book at an unexpectedly low price cause you to rush into something that could be a scam.

“Another element I've heard by some of the victims of this recent scam is that in some cases the counterfeit books are mixed in as part of a larger sale involving lower value non-counterfeit books, to help create the impression of legitimacy.”

Surely some of you recall an incident down in the Midwest, although it didn't get near as much attention, or somebody from another competing grading company put out a number of poorly faked slabs of their competitor's product. I think in that instance they were putting in fake labels that indicated a higher grade for a very low grade comic. None of that was done for monetary gain, but rather to undermine the integrity of their competitor and their product. Very nefarious actions to say the least. This story almost stinks of that same thing. 

And once again, from the words of this individual, Im even more interested and what the transaction dollar amount was. A few people on the original thread on Facebook have inquired about that, but the OP seems very evasive to answer it. Considering what his consignor mentions the value to be or what they were likely to sell it at - this guy was duped for $1,500, I got a whole different opinion of it. Shoot, even if he was duped for $5,000, I would have to question his intention in paying the amount he did for what he thought he was getting. I've heard too many stories about people that inherited books or simply we're selling something they had no idea the value of and were taken complete advantage of. If this guy only got those books for $1,500, I would say karma served him himself. If he got duped for $20 plus thousand, then at least he went into it honestly. I'm inclined toward the ladder as he did mention in response to the question from another comment that he "paid fair price."

Given All the comments and back and forth about who's blaming who on this thread, it would seem relevant to know such information before concluding any type of determination. If it were me, I would want to disclose the amount, but I've never been in that situation. So to each their own.

[VintageComics]

On 2/24/2023 at 7:03 AM, Mr. Zipper said:

I think you guys are overthinking it. There’s absolutely no need to reverse engineer CGC slabs and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in the process. There’s already millions of CGC slabs in existence. They can buy $25 slabbed books off of eBay all day long and figure out how to take it apart with minimal damage and then reassemble to hide the broken posts. They don’t need to be perfect and fool the most savvy and eagle eyed dealers and collectors. They just need to find that one person. 

Good point. 

And this is why I like FREE SPEECH and OPEN ENTANGLEMENT OF IDEAS rather than suppression and censorship. 

Without it, you would NEVER get to the truth of a matter. 

 

Edited February 25, 2023 by VintageComics

[VintageComics]

On 2/24/2023 at 12:23 PM, 500Club said:

The ‘that’s so obvious, I’d have never been fooled’ sentiment.

I can say, I’ve definitely recalibrated the index of suspicion I’ll be applying to CGC slabs and the books inside them.  I’m telling myself, for sure, I’d have caught that funny font, and the 1mm bubbling of the posts, but…

"Recalibrating the index of suspicion" is a great way to put it. 

We all need to do that regularly in life and this is one of those times. 

[VintageComics]

On 2/24/2023 at 7:43 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I don’t think it’s ok to use the word “broads” anymore 

It was a spatial reference and not a sexual one. 

[Lazyboy]

On 2/24/2023 at 3:31 PM, MarvelsKryptonite said:

You can't crack a slab without there being some evidence, period.

Sorry, but that's not true. It might apply to most slabs, but that's not enough to make the statement true.

[wurstisart]

Why does CGC or similar not engrave / laser the plastic holder with the serial number or other identification so that the plastic case can’t get misused for other books?

OK it would still allow to take the graded book out and put a copy or similar of that  book in the case, but at least it would not allow a graded 25 USD book to be used to fake a high grade rare book.

 

Seems at least to be an easy fix / introduction for CGC.

[waaaghboss]

Oh wow, I've bought booka from this dealer before, he stocks an antique mall in Idaho with a surprisingly good mix of books at good prices, which is rare these days.  He even has a few pulps.   This is a real shame. 

[WolverineX]

On 2/25/2023 at 6:46 PM, waaaghboss said:

Oh wow, I've bought booka from this dealer before, he stocks an antique mall in Idaho with a surprisingly good mix of books at good prices, which is rare these days.  He even has a few pulps.   This is a real shame. 

Wait,  how did u find out about the dealer

[waaaghboss]

On 2/25/2023 at 4:28 PM, WolverineX said:

Wait,  how did u find out about the dealer

The link on first page is to his Facebook, where i recognized a picture of the vendor mall he stocks.  The comments were about spokane so I was curious which shop it was.

[VintageComics]

On 2/25/2023 at 3:22 PM, wurstisart said:

Why does CGC or similar not engrave / laser the plastic holder with the serial number or other identification so that the plastic case can’t get misused for other books?

OK it would still allow to take the graded book out and put a copy or similar of that  book in the case, but at least it would not allow a graded 25 USD book to be used to fake a high grade rare book.

 

Seems at least to be an easy fix / introduction for CGC.

Logistically, it would take extra time and money to do this. 

They'd need to slow down the 'slab a million books a year' assembly line down to a crawl to match each book to the plastic holder, print the serial number on the slab and then encapsulate each specific book. 

It would create an even bigger backlog and increase the price of encapsulation greatly. 

As a customer would you be willing to pay and wait an extra time period for them to be able to afford this service?

I guess it could be an option. Pay an extra $50 for this security feature...some people may go for it. 

But for the masses? I don't see it happening. 

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 2/25/2023 at 9:15 PM, VintageComics said:

Logistically, it would take extra time and money to do this. 

They'd need to slow down the 'slab a million books a year' assembly line down to a crawl to match each book to the plastic holder, print the serial number on the slab and then encapsulate each specific book. 

It would create an even bigger backlog and increase the price of encapsulation greatly. 

As a customer would you be willing to pay and wait an extra time period for them to be able to afford this service?

I guess it could be an option. Pay an extra $50 for this security feature...some people may go for it. 

But for the masses? I don't see it happening. 

 

Different security tiers 

[VintageComics]

On 2/25/2023 at 9:28 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Different security tiers 

Yeah. Now when I think it through, it does seem like it would divide the market. Probably won't happen as an optional service. 

[MarvelsKryptonite]

On 2/25/2023 at 6:52 PM, szav said:

Yikes.... its probably already been said but at least going forward, when people pay $1000+ to slab a book $30,000+ book, its not unreasonable to expect that you might get more than $10 worth of security features out of your purchase of the service.  I hope CGC ups their game on the security features, there are many many options for doing so, even if they end up charging more.

I think somebody already stated something similar to this:

The slabs did their job, they indicated tampering, regardless of how many eyes it took to see it, it was evident. 

On the same token, whoever can come up with an economical and nominal idea for CGC to implement - they'd likely be sitting on a well paid idea. There seems to be no end of intelligence on these chats that surely such an idea could be invented? What's better than the old "two heads are better than one?" = 100+ heads.

[MarvelsKryptonite]

On 2/25/2023 at 11:13 AM, Lazyboy said:

Sorry, but that's not true. It might apply to most slabs, but that's not enough to make the statement true.

If that's tried and true, I can't seem to find any ethical reason anyone would be trying to do so, or prove that statement incorrect.

[Chief1332]

Is there an easy fix?  Maybe a mechanical feature that can readily be seen if slab is separated enough to remove/insert a book? 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 2/20/2023 at 6:22 AM, Larryw7 said:

I remember the founders of CGC telling us they were leading collectors out of the "wild west" of the pre slabbing era. How has that been working for y'all?

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 2/26/2023 at 1:25 PM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

[wurstisart]

On 2/26/2023 at 3:15 AM, VintageComics said:

Logistically, it would take extra time and money to do this. 

They'd need to slow down the 'slab a million books a year' assembly line down to a crawl to match each book to the plastic holder, print the serial number on the slab and then encapsulate each specific book. 

It would create an even bigger backlog and increase the price of encapsulation greatly. 

As a customer would you be willing to pay and wait an extra time period for them to be able to afford this service?

I guess it could be an option. Pay an extra $50 for this security feature...some people may go for it. 

But for the masses? I don't see it happening. 

 

To laser a serial number takes maybe 3 seconds, we do it at work all the time on hundred of thousands of items.

[JollyComics]

On 2/25/2023 at 8:52 PM, szav said:

Yikes.... its probably already been said but at least going forward, when people pay $1000+ to slab a book $30,000+ book, its not unreasonable to expect that you might get more than $10 worth of security features out of your purchase of the service.  I hope CGC ups their game on the security features, there are many many options for doing so, even if they end up charging more.

Modern Tier fee: $24/$39 FT, Economy Tier fee: $35/$50 FT, Standard Tier fee: $80, Express Tier fee: $130 and Walkthrough Tier Fee: 3% FMV.

Encapsulation cases and seals are basically plainly same. Nothing is secured.

[JollyComics]

On 2/26/2023 at 2:46 PM, szav said:

Not really hard to think of some pretty easy cheap things they could do even on less expensive books too.  Could implant magnetic strips, or colorful whispy strings into the plastic of the slab to create a unique and hard to copy pattern sort of like they do with currency.  Embed it all on the top label on the back of the slab so the colorful mess doesn’t detract from looking at the front cover.  Then keep a high res scan archived that’s publicly accessible.

The high resolution scans are important for our security. How can we access and see them if the books are authentic before purchasing?