Beware…Fake high value CGC books in Pacific Northwest 14 14

[WolverineX]

On 2/22/2023 at 10:44 AM, Dr. Balls said:

I bought a bunch of empty slabs and did my own labels (Old style to match the slab design, I changed them to not be exact duplicates, like no serial number) so I could put them on the shelves with my real slabs. Anyone handy with Adobe Illustrator and common typeface knowledge could generate exact replicas (CGC uses two long-time, very identifiable typefaces in their labels). This is my layout that I print through my laser printer onto pre-printed backgrounds (with the blue gradient).

Ideally, if this becomes an issue, CGC should hire a typographer (easy to find, there are tons of people doing typefaces) to develop a sans-serif typeface with some details that differentiate it from the well-known established ones - which would make it much harder to create exact forgeries. The CGC labels (and anyone else's for that matter) are pretty easy to forge.

 

where do you buy empty slabs at?

[Dr. Balls]

On 2/22/2023 at 9:22 AM, WolverineX said:

where do you buy empty slabs at?

A boardie was selling them awhile back. They turn up here from time to time. I think dealers use them to display books, too.

[WolverineX]

On 2/22/2023 at 11:24 AM, Dr. Balls said:

A boardie was selling them awhile back. They turn up here from time to time. I think dealers use them to display books, too.

are they old CGC slabs or new ones?  How did you seal them up?  

[Roger66]

My #1 Rule of Thumb for the past decade is I don't buy "expensive" comics raw or graded from 3rd parties I cannot verify or have verified. Throughout the years I have passed up on what were solid deals wherein for example a Seller was offering me a Hulk #1 CGC 2.0 or AF15 raw, early Actions etc. - because my intuition was something is not right here and that was often after exchanging phone #s, talking on the phone and seeking references etc. - I even looked up one Seller and saw he had been arrested and there was an article on him online. I believe many a victimized buyer is too eager to make a deal because he is concerned that the book(s) will be gone in the morning and those alarm bells in his head are muted. I didn't read most of the posts here but all I can say is this - know your prospective sellers on expensive books, feel comfortable without undue pressure when making deals and don't mute your intuition.  

Edited February 22, 2023 by Roger66

[Dr. Balls]

On 2/22/2023 at 9:25 AM, WolverineX said:

are they old CGC slabs or new ones?  How did you seal them up?  

They were the older, thinner ones. I just close them up on the bottom with a little tape, that way I can remove the book easy if I need to. I imagine if you're doing the whole counterfeiting thing, they are super glueing the corners? I've deslabbed a couple of the newer cases and I think they break and become damaged more easily than the old style slabs. Admittedly, I am not real good at trying to open those cases without trying to damage them - so maybe there is a method to opening them without ruining it.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Dr. Balls

[Telegan]

On 2/22/2023 at 9:44 AM, Dr. Balls said:

I bought a bunch of empty slabs and did my own labels (Old style to match the slab design, I changed them to not be exact duplicates, like no serial number) so I could put them on the shelves with my real slabs. Anyone handy with Adobe Illustrator and common typeface knowledge could generate exact replicas (CGC uses two long-time, very identifiable typefaces in their labels). This is my layout that I print through my laser printer onto pre-printed backgrounds (with the blue gradient).

Ideally, if this becomes an issue, CGC should hire a typographer (easy to find, there are tons of people doing typefaces) to develop a sans-serif typeface with some details that differentiate it from the well-known established ones - which would make it much harder to create exact forgeries. The CGC labels (and anyone else's for that matter) are pretty easy to forge.

 

 

If those were mine, I'd be giving them grades of 13.1, 19.7, 3.14, 2.7182, 6.02214076 x 10^23, etc. just to make people do a double-take.

[Dr. Balls]

On 2/22/2023 at 4:11 PM, Telegan said:

 

If those were mine, I'd be giving them grades of 13.1, 19.7, 3.14, 2.7182, 6.02214076 x 10^23, etc. just to make people do a double-take.

13.1

[Cat]

On 2/23/2023 at 9:56 AM, Dr. Balls said:

13.1

I didn't realise he owned a book from The Promise Collection. 

[Terry JSA]

On 2/20/2023 at 4:52 AM, VintageComics said:

Not everyone has the same eye for small details.

Well yeah, I understand that. But wouldn’t you thoroughly examine and look over a book of that significance? Graded or raw? 

I mean.. it’s a Hulk #1 in a CGC 6.5 and that’s a lot of money to be dropping on a fake copy.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Terry JSA

[Terry JSA]

On 2/20/2023 at 9:10 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Even though the differences seem minor, my brain picked up that something was off with the 6.5 immediately upon seeing the Hulk 1 pic.   Look at a specific font long enough, and you’re definitely going to notice any variation. 

Exactly! At first glance, I immediately took notice of the grade. The font and spacing was very off.

[VintageComics]

On 2/22/2023 at 9:39 PM, Terry JSA said:

But wouldn’t thoroughly examine and look over a book of that significance? Graded or raw? 

I mean.. it’s a Hulk #1 in a CGC 6.5 and that’s a lot of money to be dropping on a fake copy.

 

On 2/22/2023 at 9:40 PM, Terry JSA said:

Exactly! At first glance, I immediately took notice of the grade. The font and spacing was very off.

I don't understand why it's so difficult to understand that not everyone has an eye for this sort of thing. 

What is obvious to you may not be obvious to everyone. 

In much the same way that an 'obvious' CGC Quality Control error can slip under the radar, you can miss a lot unless you're attentive and looking for it. 

The entire point of the slab is TRUST in the slab. 

Up until this incident, most dealers didn't look for fraudulent slabs. 

 

[Terry JSA]

On 2/22/2023 at 9:46 PM, VintageComics said:

 

I don't understand why it's so difficult to understand that not everyone has an eye for this sort of thing. 

What is obvious to you may not be obvious to everyone. 

In much the same way that an 'obvious' CGC Quality Control error can slip under the radar, you can miss a lot unless you're attentive and looking for it. 

The entire point of the slab is TRUST in the slab. 

Up until this incident, most dealers didn't look for fraudulent slabs. 

 

I’ve already acknowledged the fact that not everyone has an eye for this sort of thing. I know mistakes can happen and things can slip through the cracks.

[aszumilo]

If he paid the seller with a check, he'll get the cashed check back (or can request a copy) and can see where the check was deposited and into what account.  I doubt the seller would take the check to one of those check cashing places, so, he probably put into his bank.

Also possible, if he cashed it at the bank the check was drawn on, they would have verified ID and have surveillance of the transaction..

[Bookery]

On 2/22/2023 at 9:46 PM, VintageComics said:

 

I don't understand why it's so difficult to understand that not everyone has an eye for this sort of thing. 

What is obvious to you may not be obvious to everyone. 

In much the same way that an 'obvious' CGC Quality Control error can slip under the radar, you can miss a lot unless you're attentive and looking for it. 

The entire point of the slab is TRUST in the slab. 

Up until this incident, most dealers didn't look for fraudulent slabs. 

 

Exactly.  And everyone is concentrating on the Hulk #1, which is where the scammer's ego perhaps crossed a bridge too far.  I'm more interested in hearing more details about the GS X-Men and Hulk 181... I think it's probably easier to forge bronze-era books than key early silver-age with their various paper-quality issues.  This scammer has taken things to a higher level than we've previously seen, but still flawed.  The problems lying ahead we need to watch for are when the slabs themselves are re-created, as has been done in coins and baseball cards.  Forgeries are never perfect, but they will become increasingly harder to detect.

[Jeffro.]

On 2/22/2023 at 9:46 PM, VintageComics said:

 

I don't understand why it's so difficult to understand that not everyone has an eye for this sort of thing. 

What is obvious to you may not be obvious to everyone. 

In much the same way that an 'obvious' CGC Quality Control error can slip under the radar, you can miss a lot unless you're attentive and looking for it. 

The entire point of the slab is TRUST in the slab. 

Up until this incident, most dealers didn't look for fraudulent slabs. 

 

Oh please. You've been in the game long enough to know this is nonsense. Any collector dropping a significant amount of cash on any collectible damn well better educate themselves, or have someone close at hand who can assist with this kind of stuff. Not "having an eye for it" is nothing more than an excuse and an invitation to getting ripped off.

Frankly, I'm shocked that you would try to rationalize not educating yourself. 

[WolverineX]

On 2/23/2023 at 8:23 AM, Bookery said:

Exactly.  And everyone is concentrating on the Hulk #1, which is where the scammer's ego perhaps crossed a bridge too far.  I'm more interested in hearing more details about the GS X-Men and Hulk 181... I think it's probably easier to forge bronze-era books than key early silver-age with their various paper-quality issues.  This scammer has taken things to a higher level than we've previously seen, but still flawed.  The problems lying ahead we need to watch for are when the slabs themselves are re-created, as has been done in coins and baseball cards.  Forgeries are never perfect, but they will become increasingly harder to detect.

Yes, eventually they will be really difficult for the regular collector.

[jsilverjanet]

On 2/22/2023 at 8:46 PM, VintageComics said:

I don't understand why it's so difficult to understand that not everyone has an eye for this sort of thing. 

What is obvious to you may not be obvious to everyone. 

In much the same way that an 'obvious' CGC Quality Control error can slip under the radar, you can miss a lot unless you're attentive and looking for it. 

The entire point of the slab is TRUST in the slab. 

Up until this incident, most dealers didn't look for fraudulent slabs. 

At what point does the buyer have the responsibility to do some due diligence on a purchase of this size?

at 100k, 250k, 1,000,0000?

regardless of "the CGC case", shouldn't the buyer do some research?

whether they have an eye or not, shouldn't people educate themselves if they are going to buy and sell books let alone books of this value

most dealers may not be looking for "fradulent slabs" but they are looking out for ways not to get ripped off. 

[jsilverjanet]

I think people accept that most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference

the hard part is why a "dealer" would not be able to tell the difference or try and educate himself before making a purchase of this size

[jsilverjanet]

what's ironic is that for someone who questions how people can blindly accept "authorities seal of approval" on things, you seemed to have a more lenient view on peoples ignorance when it comes to CGC slabs

 

[jsilverjanet]

On 2/22/2023 at 10:24 AM, Dr. Balls said:

A boardie was selling them awhile back. They turn up here from time to time. I think dealers use them to display books, too.

@lizards2 aren't you the one who's supplying the open slabs?

you may want to get a lawyer