Beware…Fake high value CGC books in Pacific Northwest 14 14

[KCOComics]

On 2/20/2023 at 6:31 PM, universal soldier said:

Holy . I spent a good 10 minutes and could barely see the difference with the labels. Those pics of the doctored slab are pretty obvious and I would like to think that when dealing with any high end books like those, I would have things under a microscope. This is concerning for sure though...

Yeah I agree. 

Meeting a stranger at a Starbucks to buy a 5 figure book would have spidey senses tingling.  The labels alone appeared difficult to decipher, but looking at the slabs I feel like there would be enough question marks to make me pump the breaks. 

 

I'm glad MCS shared more details. 

[mycomicshop]

On 2/20/2023 at 1:14 PM, MrBedrock said:

I don't think Conan would be mad at me for copying this here. It is from a group email chain regarding this topic -

The owner of those two comics who posted the Facebook posts had submitted them to us for consignment and we were the ones who told him they were counterfeit.

 

Two comics--Hulk 1 CGC 6.5 serial 0304089001, and a coverless Captain America Comics #1.

 

The coverless Cap 1 was the wrong size, paper/printing was off, and the paper showed through white in places despite the pages being colored to look old.

 

On the Hulk 1, the top right and bottom right corners of the slab had a little bit of a curve/swelling to them. Not obviously cracked but kind of swelled/expanded a bit. I've attached two pictures of those corners. It was easier to see they were wonky in person than it is from those two images.

 

We also had doubts about the font/printing on the label, and when we cracked open the book the label was miscut and put together with glue.

 

Before cracking it open we found the same label number associated with a May 2017 sale in the Heritage archive and was clearly not the same book: https://comics.ha.com/itm/silver-age-1956-1969-/the-incredible-hulk-1-marvel-1962-cgc-fn-65-off-white-to-white-pages/a/7163-92174.s

 

The book inside was a counterfeit, just printer paper, not a substituted lower grade/restored copy.

 

Conan Saunders

MyComicShop

512-808-7099

Thanks, Richard--yes I'm fine with that being shared here.

As I think was mentioned somewhere in the thread a publicly accessible picture archive from CGC would be a welcome improvement if CGC could offer that. Lookup the cert, see the book as it looked at the time it was slabbed. Or at least for books over a given value threshold if you can't do it for every single new 9.8. If done, should be something CGC just does automatically, not something a submitter has to opt in to paying more to make happen.

Wouldn't eliminate counterfeit concerns but would help make it harder in many cases.

[VintageComics]

I'm going to add an email from Mark Zaid / Esquire Comics. 

I included Mark on the email string because he is a lawyer by trade and provides outside legal counsel to CGC.

Email response below but I'm going to remove his email address to reduce spam to his email account. 

If someone needs it feel free to reach out to me. 

-----------------------------------

As outside legal counsel to CGC, I have made sure they are aware of this situation and it is being investigated. The company takes fraud very seriously. 

 

If there is any additional evidentiary information to know, please forward to me at ********************

 

Thanks. 

 

Mark

 

 

[ADAMANTIUM]

It's just nice to see a thread occupy time and space so quickly and readily. Good times. The gist is overwhelming as well.

 

[JollyComics]

We caught the counterfeit copies and fake CGC labels with re-used CGC encapsulations.  It looks like that we gather important information and we could assist the local police and victims.  Mark Zaid may involve this.

Edited February 21, 2023 by JollyComics

[NewWorldOrder]

On 2/19/2023 at 8:23 PM, WolverineX said:

Knew this was going to happen.. wanted to buy bigger books before the fake slabs show up.  Comics have just gotten so expensive... the risk is worth it now

Did you just wake up from the 1980's?

Nothing has really changed in 25+ years from your stance on the hobby

Edited February 21, 2023 by NewWorldOrder

[NewWorldOrder]

On 2/20/2023 at 2:21 PM, milk_man said:

My first thought was someone got their hands on CGC's mistakes. I've had multiple books where the case wasn't glued together at all. To top things off, the holographic sticker is on holder and not the label. Nothing stopping me from printing my own label, shoving in any book I want and gluing it together. How many opened slabs do you think are out there just waiting to be used to make a six-figure payday?

[500Club]

On 2/20/2023 at 12:25 AM, godzilla43 said:

That fake Hulk slab looks good. Easy to say NOW that the label looks fake etc. 

For sure, if you were the first guy buying, and didn’t have a legit slab beside it, you might not have listened to that little voice in the back of your head.  Or if you were an inexperienced or infrequent slab buyer.

That’s why threads like this and the long-ago Ewert thread are so beneficial to the hobby.

 

[NewWorldOrder]

I think as suggested by @MrBedrock these counterfeits would have been way easier for most of us to decipher if we had the books in hand.

The GSX #1 clearly looked suspect and once Richard showed the pictures of the inner well warping at the bottom that was a dead giveaway.  I think the CAP #1 would be pretty easy to spot the fake paper right away with anyone with some basic background in resto checking knowledge.

Now the Hulk #1 CGC 6.5 label I think was pretty well done.  I see what @BlowUpTheMoon (great job btw) pointed out, but even with my lasik 20/10 vision I didn't really see a difference from just the FONT alone.  IMO that would get past most people (again maybe easier in hand), but it wasnt till he pointed out the words not aligning did I see the "yup something is off."  The only thing I kinda noticed right away with the Hulk #1 was maybe something with font being a little smaller and something felt a tad off the alignment of the PQ wording under the numeric grade.

What concerns me with the Hulk #1 label is by itself I think again it would get past most people.  However as stated before if others got to see the book in hand it might be easier to figure out it's an counterfeit.

I feel bad for the dealer or store owner who got ripped off, but I think most seasoned dealers/collectors would have sniffed this out fairly easy right away with just their eyes.

Now some of you that think this is the worst display of mistrust now in the hobby I think need to stop being so naive.  Of course this was going happen and it will happen again.  The few bad headlines don't outweigh the vast calmness of safety buying certified comics has brought to the hobby.  So relax     Educate yourself and don't be a sucker. 

Also for some of you newbies.....this thread barely has 7 pages.  Boring alert

Cira 2006 or whatever had Jason Ewert and FF #4 had 100+ by lunch!  Heck even the common "Is pressing restoration" had 50 pages within 12 hours.

[500Club]

On 2/20/2023 at 10:12 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

What concerns me with the Hulk #1 label is by itself I think again it would get past most people.  However as stated before if others got to see the book in hand it might be easier to figure out it's an counterfeit.

That’s the book I was referring to in my above post, yeah.  It looks pretty reasonable as a stand-alone.  You’d need to twig to the odd corners.

[Cat-Man_America]

I'm not normally drawn to posting in General, but having followed a thread on this topic over in Gold from an excited, then disappointed buyer, decided to post here.  The thing which stands out most to me are the grade boxes ...differences in size and design stand out like a sore thumb to my eye. The fonts take a bit more scrutiny to detect differences, but the design difference in those grade boxes are pretty distinct.  

This looks like a warning shot over the bow of buying books except from well trusted dealers and high profile auctions. These may look like isolated examples ...and not very good ones given the tells... but I hope grading companies are being proactive.  It wouldn't be a bad idea for CGC to make a public statement on how they view these violations of their trademark and what efforts are being made at their end to address it since counterfeiting can seriously degrade trust.  

[Sauce Dog]

While I am able to catch the typographical discrepancies on the label, I know even if I got that Hulk #1 in hand it is very easy to potentially slip into the assumption of safety just because the thing is in a legit CGC holder - that physicality alone (with the hologram and a nice tight seal) can be enough to make our primitive lizard brains at peace and potentially get lax about really scrutinizing something (especially if we are excited about the books we are trying to buy).

Hope they are able resolve this and perhaps get some money back to the buyers.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Sauce Dog

[Motor City Rob]

On 2/20/2023 at 9:01 AM, MR. Pontoon said:

Every aspect of this story sounds wonky to me. Like Terry said, you'd think somebody with 40 years experience would notice the difference. Some folks here have said they'd have trouble spotting the typographical mistakes Blowie pointed out, but I think they would be even more obvious with the books in hand. And is this guy really a dealer? His FB post says he's been "doing comics for 40 years." Doesn't "doing" mean he's basically a collector? I can't imagine any of the full-time dealers I know buying books of this caliber via a Facebook posting. And who on earth would post books like this on Facebook? It stinks this poor soul got ripped off, but the selling of the most expensive and coveted books in the hobby at bargain basement prices is as old a scam as the Nigerian prince email.

I couldn't agree more. I feel terrible for the victim, but how does a 40+ year comic dealer avoid doing any kind of due diligence...especially now hearing some of the obvious flaws MCS saw with the slabs in hand???? Seems like this should have been easily avoided from someone so experienced. Glad to hear the scammer is getting exposed, but geez.

[Yorick]

On 2/21/2023 at 5:05 AM, Sauce Dog said:

a nice tight seal

But the case wasn't nice and tight (in this instance).  The scammer heated the pegs of the outside case and warped the whole thing.  It's that picture of a completely unsealed Spider Gwen book that has me worried...

[Sauce Dog]

On 2/21/2023 at 12:37 PM, Yorick said:

But the case wasn't nice and tight (in this instance).  The scammer heated the pegs of the outside case and warped the whole thing.  It's that picture of a completely unsealed Spider Gwen book that has me worried...

Which can be missed when one is quickly glancing around the slab and not comparing to others (especially if you are slightly disillusioned with CGC quality control already and have seen worse ), as well as if the level of warping was different between all the fakes (which I imagine they were).

Those unsealed slabs are more common than many might think - I've seen more than a dozen people on Facebook groups post about receiving them and offering them for sale.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Sauce Dog

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 2/21/2023 at 12:50 PM, Sauce Dog said:

Which can be missed when one is quickly glancing around the slab and not comparing to others (especially if you are slightly disillusioned with CGC quality control already and have seen worse ), as well as if the level of warping was different between all the fakes (which I imagine they were).

Those unsealed slabs are more common than many might think - I've seen more than a dozen people on Facebook groups post about receiving them and offering them for sale.

There’s a post in the QC thread somewhere where a member got a half dozen or so unsealed cases back. 

[WolverineX]

Final chapter. Photos of the fake  Hulk 1. Man they look pretty good other than the pink tint.

 

https://www.facebook.com/Themanbehindthecomics

[BlowUpTheMoon]

[davidpg]

On 2/22/2023 at 10:07 AM, BlowUpTheMoon said:

Absence of Marvel chipping could almost have been a good indicator.

[Dr. Balls]

I bought a bunch of empty slabs and did my own labels (Old style to match the slab design, I changed them to not be exact duplicates, like no serial number) so I could put them on the shelves with my real slabs. Anyone handy with Adobe Illustrator and common typeface knowledge could generate exact replicas (CGC uses two long-time, very identifiable typefaces in their labels). This is my layout that I print through my laser printer onto pre-printed backgrounds (with the blue gradient).

Ideally, if this becomes an issue, CGC should hire a typographer (easy to find, there are tons of people doing typefaces) to develop a sans-serif typeface with some details that differentiate it from the well-known established ones - which would make it much harder to create exact forgeries. The CGC labels (and anyone else's for that matter) are pretty easy to forge.

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Dr. Balls