Beware…Fake high value CGC books in Pacific Northwest 14 14

[Topnotchman]

Superior Preservation and Security

The holder’s sturdy outer plastic better resists impacts. The holder design uses precise pressure to lock the comic in place for enhanced protection, and the hologram affirming authenticity is now hot-­stamped and embedded into the plastic for improved protection and increased security.

 

This is all I could find from CGC's web site on slab security.  Everything else is just second hand information on how to tell if a slab has been compromised, shouldn’t CGC be taking a lead on educating collectors and dealers?

What is the tipping point between a cosmetic flaw and a compromised holder? 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Topnotchman
Spelling

[Buzzetta]

On 2/23/2023 at 11:16 AM, jsilverjanet said:

I think people accept that most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference

the hard part is why a "dealer" would not be able to tell the difference or try and educate himself before making a purchase of this size

I am being good this year.  Aside from a monthly ASM to continue the run, I have not purchased a single piece of art or any other comic book this year.   This type of stuff further dissuades me from doing so.   It's a bad look and I do believe that it damages the market and shakes faith across the playing field in the CGC product.   Remember when I had mentioned that there were guys that were able to get their hands on original cardbacks and original bubbles in a factory find and decided to recard loose SW figures?  They even passed them through the grading companies.  That shook the market for a little bit but the market bounced back after there were some tell tale signs as to what to look for.  Since there were only a limited number of factory found original Kenner Star Wars materials, that was a debacle that had a determinable and limited reach.  The problem is that CGC case manufacturing, resealing, altering and forgery have a broader scope in the future. 

Who is to blame?  I have to be honest.  I would have noticed something was wrong with the case alignment in the way that the bottom bubbling appears.  However, I would not have noticed the font until this thread.  It's just something that I would have overlooked as I would not have been looking for it to begin with.   As @Dr. Balls stated, he can easily recreate the labels if he wants using the same font since it is readily available.  I don't really know if fingers can really be pointed at either dealers or buyers to be honest prior to this discovery. 

These are also the books that have been discovered.  Much like the Star Wars incident there are more out there than were discovered.   How many went through auction houses.  Does the top guy at every auction house carefully look at the label even in a high profile auction or is there a small crew that are merely cataloguing everything to get it ready for auction?  Once those books pass through the auction site you have a second tier of "trust" that the customer believes when they purchase their item.  They trust that the CGC slab is authentic and they trust that the auction house, like Heritage or Metro or Clink provides that second confidence in authenticity. 

I am sure there are dealers that have such volume that they may not even realize that they got taken on this.    Good on Conan and the team at @mycomicshop for noticing something was amiss.  However, I have a hard time believing that this was an isolated incident and am more aligned to believe that there are more out there and that others missed it as they passed through their hands.

 

[jsilverjanet]

On 2/23/2023 at 10:35 AM, Buzzetta said:

I am being good this year

we were all so worried, thanks for the update

[Buzzetta]

On 2/23/2023 at 11:43 AM, jsilverjanet said:

we were all so worried, thanks for the update

   I gotta come in and give an update from time to time. 

For instance, 2,684 days to go.

[lizards2]

On 2/23/2023 at 8:25 AM, jsilverjanet said:

On 2/22/2023 at 8:24 AM, Dr. Balls said:

A boardie was selling them awhile back. They turn up here from time to time. I think dealers use them to display books, too.

@lizards2 aren't you the one who's supplying the open slabs?

you may want to get a lawyer

Yes - I have more, as I am constantly freeing enslaved books.

All you need to do is pay postage. PM me your zip code and how many you need.

P.S. - they don't come with labels, or the inner wells with two sides missing.

[jsilverjanet]

On 2/23/2023 at 11:26 AM, lizards2 said:

Yes - I have more, as I am constantly freeing enslaved books.

All you need to do is pay postage. PM me your zip code and how many you need.

P.S. - they don't come with labels, or the inner wells with two sides missing.

@Dr. Balls I'm going to need some labels

[Comic-Fan]

Troubling to say the least, I had to look closely before really seeing the discrepancy.  Scammers will only get better, as someone pointed out.  Collectors such as myself are atleast now in the loop and will be mindful going forward, thanks @JTD.  

Edited February 23, 2023 by Comic-Fan

[10centcomics]

It's easy for us to sit back here and say we all would have 100% caught these things. Keep in mind it's easier to notice these things when you have already been alerted to it. I agree people should practice due diligence but there needs to be more empathy for victims of scams (we can't expect everyone to be expert authenticators and graders... which is why services like CGC exist in the first place). As a community we should hold grading companies accountable for better safeguards against counterfeits. I look forward to seeing CGC's response to this. 

[MarvelsKryptonite]

There is something odd and amiss with this whole story, and it's about as obvious as the small discrepancies with label.

What I'd like to know is what the guy paid (got ripped off) for a Hulk #1. If it's anywhere under $12-15k, then how could that not be a red flag in itself?

Among the Facebook threads there was some insinuation toward what was paid. Anybody with 40 years of comic industry experience is going to know what a book like that is worth. In fact, had it been anything under that amount, the question then comes up of who was ripping off who, especially in lieu of the latter points to be described in this comment.

I'd like to know some numbers in these stories. But even if he got it for $1, this is extremely damaging to the industry as a whole. I find it hard to believe that one single lone "scammer" is at the root of this.

All aside, here's the real kicker that may throw the whole thing through a loop: back about 7-8 months ago there was a Hibid auction up in that Spokane corridor that had nearly every single one of those books this guy has pictured in a single lot (along with various miscellaneous things like furniture and even a fur coat). When I happened upon it, I can't say my eyes didn't get big and wide with what-ifs and dreams of the jackpot. But I learned at a very young age if it's too good to be true it is.

The photographs for the auction we're not clear enough to read the labels, in any request for more information is ignored in that type of auction. So I rationally assumed most of those were just facsimile graded books - mainly the Hulk(s), GSXM 1, Spidey, etc. There was a box of raw comics that they carelessly photographed enough to show what may have been considered a somewhat lucrative raw collection. Enough that I bid $150 mainly for the few ASM's that caught my eye. In the end, I'm sure overzealous hopes were what won that auction. If I recall, I think it closed at about $400 to $500.

Nobody's going to be that lucky or stupid enough to believe they should be so fortunate to win an auction for that many key comic books at $4 to $500. And that's even to say if the focus of their purchase wasnt directed at some of the other ticket items in the lot, which I think included some kind of signed letter from Audrey Hepburn and an ivory walking cane.

Point being that The whole thing borderlined absurdity, as does this guys story. You can't crack a slab without there being some evidence, period. That's what they're designed foremost with the intention of providing.

So then, if there is any validity to these poor saps claimed misfortunes, they may be in pursuit of this lone "scammer" (unlikely) to the avail of finding he was the winner of that auction. However, maybe he was the seller?

Either way, when I offered up this information, the guy promptly went so far as to name me as the scammer. Well hell, I need that bs like I need a kick in the groin. I don't particularly need a kick in the groin, and when I do, my wife has a long standing tab on that tally😆.

[VintageComics]

On 2/23/2023 at 8:32 AM, Jeffro. said:

Oh please. You've been in the game long enough to know this is nonsense. Any collector dropping a significant amount of cash on any collectible damn well better educate themselves, or have someone close at hand who can assist with this kind of stuff. Not "having an eye for it" is nothing more than an excuse and an invitation to getting ripped off.

Frankly, I'm shocked that you would try to rationalize not educating yourself. 

Yes I have.

I also have a good eye.

In fact, I've been told by many that I have the best in the biz. 

If CGC who are the "indisputable experts" make quality control errors like putting the wrong comic in a holder with the wrong label (please reference the "Where was 'Quality Control' thread if you need more examples ) I think it's OK to accept that NOT EVERYONE is going to catch subtle differences like this. 

Not everyone that is a "dealer" is an expert.

They should be, but dealers aren't trained professionals with some controlled standard of greatness. They're all taught by the school of Hard Knocks.

---------------------

Tangent: I often turn to my past career in the automotive industry for parallels. In Canada you need to go through a formal training and certification program to become an auto tech. You MUST pass the course to receive a certification with a MINIMUM standard. You can't operate as a tech without this certification. You stay an apprentice for life without it and always need someone else to sign off on your work. 

You would be SHOCKED at how many techs are completely clueless, even after passing certification. Many should not even be working on your car in my opinion. But they are. And they spend a lifetime doing so. 

And this is a job where the lives of people are involved with potentially fatal consequences. 

---------------------------------------

Many 'dealers' can't even catch resto on a comic book. It's why they use CGC. 

So how much expectation do you have for them to catch resto on a SLAB which is supposed to be guaranteed and designed to absolve them of any need to have skill? 

That's what CGC is for. That's their claim. That's their guarantee. That's why they are legally going after these people. 

The entire point for CGC's existence was to guarantee trust in the product. 

And once you do that, until something like this happens only the people with sharper eyes catch this stuff. 

 

To be clear, I am not saying they SHOULDN'T have an eye for these sorts of things. We all should.

But we all don't, and I wouldn't be too hard on the people who don't. That's all I'm saying. 

Oh please yourself. 

On 2/23/2023 at 11:08 AM, jsilverjanet said:

At what point does the buyer have the responsibility to do some due diligence on a purchase of this size?

at 100k, 250k, 1,000,0000?

regardless of "the CGC case", shouldn't the buyer do some research?

whether they have an eye or not, shouldn't people educate themselves if they are going to buy and sell books let alone books of this value

most dealers may not be looking for "fradulent slabs" but they are looking out for ways not to get ripped off. 

I don't know. Everyone is different. 

I've seen people gamble with 7 figure deals and I've seen people who won't gamble a 2 figure deal. 

I guess that will depend on their risk tolerance. Everyone's is different...because everyone is different. 

[Mr. Zipper]

On 2/23/2023 at 1:48 PM, 10centcomics said:

 As a community we should hold grading companies accountable for better safeguards against counterfeits. I look forward to seeing CGC's response to this. 

If I were CGC my response would be that our safeguards worked. The case is obviously tampered with. 

I mean seriously... who thinks this looks ok? There is no criminal mastermind here peddling undetectable fakes. It's a cracked case that looks like it's been smoothed over with a butter knife and some sort of epoxy. The CGC blaming is a bit much. 

[500Club]

On 2/23/2023 at 12:20 PM, VintageComics said:

To be clear, I am not saying they SHOULDN'T have an eye for these sorts of things. We all should.

But we all don't, and I wouldn't be too hard on the people who don't. That's all I'm saying. 

Agree.

A given person may have caught this scam, but have been fooled by another.  Compassion is called for.

Take home message from this thread:  be wary, educate yourself.

[VintageComics]

On 2/23/2023 at 1:48 PM, 10centcomics said:

It's easy for us to sit back here and say we all would have 100% caught these things. Keep in mind it's easier to notice these things when you have already been alerted to it. I agree people should practice due diligence but there needs to be more empathy for victims of scams (we can't expect everyone to be expert authenticators and graders... which is why services like CGC exist in the first place). As a community we should hold grading companies accountable for better safeguards against counterfeits. I look forward to seeing CGC's response to this. 

I agree. 

That's the illusion of fraud. Much like magic, it preys on where you're NOT expected to be looking and strikes deep in the heart of it. 

I think if we had a 100 boardies in a room passing around books at a swap meet before this was exposed, many would miss these fakes.

And another reason to deal with established sellers with a good track record.

 

[500Club]

On 2/23/2023 at 12:24 PM, Mr. Zipper said:

I mean seriously... who thinks this looks ok?

No one… when they look at it side on, and close up.

[davidpg]

Again, scammers at this level will try to prey on the FOMO phenomenon.  All scammers in all fields do this.  You get offered a good deal on something and a lot of people will get excited and jump on it.  It's not a big deal with a $50 item that looks good though turns out to be fake...big deal.  Seems like this deal was for a good amount of money, though with just such a discount that the buyer probably figured that if he didn't pull the trigger that moment, he'd lose that more than decent deal.  

[VintageComics]

On 2/23/2023 at 11:19 AM, jsilverjanet said:

what's ironic is that for someone who questions how people can blindly accept "authorities seal of approval" on things, you seemed to have a more lenient view on peoples ignorance when it comes to CGC slabs

You're baiting me into a political commentary from a conversation elsewhere. Nice try. 

And you're misunderstand / mixing different ideological principles. 

When someone IS EMPLOYED IN YOUR SERVICE you should expect full transparency relating to the employment and nothing less. They work for you and owe you that. You can demand it and if they don't give it to you, they can't be trusted and need to get fired. Imagine you hire someone and they won't tell you what they do for you in an 8 hour work day?

But in CAPITALISM, when buying and selling, it's every man for himself. So buyer beware. Proceed with caution. Road may be out ahead. etc. 

The two are TOTALLY different things.  

Hopefully that helps. 

[VintageComics]

On 2/23/2023 at 2:35 PM, davidpg said:

You get offered a good deal on something and a lot of people will get excited and jump on it. 

You mean, it's like picking up someone at a bar? If you get too excited without doing your diligence it may come back to haunt you?

Like that?

[ThothAmon]

On 2/23/2023 at 2:28 PM, 500Club said:

Compassion is called for.

Take home message from this thread:  be wary, educate yourself.

Here here. Their is only one person who is guilty but that’s small comfort to the guy out the bucks. As the recipient of more than a few books with undisclosed restoration over the decades I can feel the OPs pain. 

[EastEnd1]

Have to say, this blaming the victim vibe by some has me scratching my head... .  Here's a more refreshing comment... is there anything I, or any of us, can do to help catch the loser fraudster(s)?

[VintageComics]

One thing is certain. 

@mycomicshop caught it and that's a strong endorsement toward what a quality organization they are. 

Edited February 23, 2023 by VintageComics