Low Grade Trimmed...Less Stigma on GA Books? 5 5

[Patriot6]

On 10/7/2023 at 3:51 PM, Point Five said:

Back on Dr. B’s book for a moment — since thousands (not hundreds) of dollars are potentially changing hands, and you may need to sell the book someday, this makes the equation a bit tougher IMO. The book should be fairly rare and pretty crazy desirable, and/or I’d want to see strong/consistent sales data, such that the floor to own *any* copy is at least in the ballpark of what you’re paying for the trimmed one.   

 

Very good observation. In your opinion though, can a trimmed book be desirable? Assuming a book's value increases, the trimmed equivalent must, in theory, ride the blue label's coat tails up. What would be the margin of increase of a purple trimmed against a blue? I suspect it would differ on a case by case basis, but as a whole, the trimmed will increase too, no?

[Patriot6]

On 10/7/2023 at 3:43 PM, Professor K said:

Yes, yes it would. I would put her in the car, drive her to her parents Dirty Dancing recreation, and put her in the corner. Then go home and put the book for sale right here on the board with full disclosure of course. It's just me personally, I could not own a trimmed book no matter who did the trimming or what book it is. It's just something I feel should never be done to a comic. 

I like that you have a hard line. No wishy-washy regrets down the road!

[fifties]

On 10/7/2023 at 1:01 PM, Ryan. said:

I can't deal with having certain defects in my keeper books, such as being incomplete, having brittle pages or trimming. 

 

For me as a collector who reads & keeps his books and has no use for slabs or whatever rides the market values take, trimming and brittle are two NO-NO's.  Incomplete by one or two pages I can deal with to a point, as I have made reproduction pages, but they are my books, and they ain't goin' nowhere.  Same with small chunks out of the FC.

We each have our own proclivities as to what's acceptable, ergo there's no right or wrong method.

Any defect can be looked at as a buying opportunity at a lower cost.

[jimbo_7071]

The only thing that bothers me more than trimming is brittleness. I would not buy a brittle book, and I would not buy a trimmed book—full stop.

Edited October 8, 2023 by jimbo_7071

[ttecwaf]

Batman #49.  From Heritage.  As soon as I took it out of the bag it was obviously trimmed.  Still waiting a week later to get authorization to return the book.  Top to bottom does not even measure 10 inches (see ruler).  The trimming was not mentioned in the description.  Need to be careful with raw books even from the big auction houses.  Placed it next to an untrimmed Batman #44 for comparison.  

[jimbo_7071]

On 10/7/2023 at 8:29 PM, ttecwaf said:

Batman #49.  From Heritage.  As soon as I took it out of the bag it was obviously trimmed.  Still waiting a week later to get authorization to return the book.  Top to bottom does not even measure 10 inches (see ruler).  The trimming was not mentioned in the description.  Need to be careful with raw books even from the big auction houses.  Placed it next to an untrimmed Batman #44 for comparison.  

I need to educate myself a bit more. I returned a book from eBay a couple of years ago because the right edge looked trimmed: it was cut square like a square-bound book instead of having the slight V that I'm used to seeing on saddle-stitched books. But would books from all publishers have that V, or did some publishers trim their saddle-stitched books with a square edge at the bindery? The copy was wider than average, not narrower, which is what made me wonder whether it was definitely trimmed. However, the right edge was perfectly square. I returned it because I wasn't willing to take a chance.

Edited October 8, 2023 by jimbo_7071

[Dr. Love]

Yeh, choice. Someone marries the ugly person with a good personality, someone buys the house overlooking the freeway with 24/7 noise. 

Standards cant be argued with. But flexible standards that depend on what's in your wallet, today, that I dont get so much.

[fifties]

On 10/7/2023 at 5:29 PM, ttecwaf said:

Batman #49.  From Heritage.  As soon as I took it out of the bag it was obviously trimmed.  Still waiting a week later to get authorization to return the book.  Top to bottom does not even measure 10 inches (see ruler).  The trimming was not mentioned in the description.  Need to be careful with raw books even from the big auction houses.  Placed it next to an untrimmed Batman #44 for comparison.  

There are several ways that trimming can be detected. 

If you have possession of the book, lay it flat on it's back, opened to the centerfold.  If the pages on the left (FC side) of the book fan, then they likely have not been trimmed.  OTOH, if they fall straight down evenly, that's a sign of trimming. 

Also as you noted, comparing with maybe two others from the same publishing house AFA size would be a good indicator with one caveat; around 1951 or so, with heavy inflation at the time, many titles not only dropped their page count from 52 (including the covers) to 36, but also their width.  This was ESP prevalent with EC.  The takeaway here then is to compare with books from the same close time period, for example an Aug-Sept and Dec-Jan against the Oct-Nov Batman above.

If the book is shown on the net at HA, eBay, a dealers site, ETC., go to one of the sites that displays the same issue to make a comparison.  Remember that in publishing FC registration was not exact from one book to the next, so the cover illustration might be slightly higher or lower or more left or right than the next copy.   In the Batman 49 above, when compared to another 49, the bottom of the second 49 should be longer, since the top of the first 49 is shorter.  The same with side to side, although usually that's not as loose.

[Professor K]

On 10/7/2023 at 8:28 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

The only thing that bothers me as more than trimming is brittleness. I would not buy a brittle book, and I would not buy a trimmed book—full stop.

Hey Jimbo, I don't blame you of course about brittleness but at least it's a naturally occurring consequence that can happen to old paper. I kind of think people are a little too harsh on cgc graded books with slightly brittle pages. We see books sometimes that look great for the grade but have SB pages and boy that puts a hurting on the final hammer. And to try to sell one here on the board, forgetaboutit. I avoid them also but mostly because I know how much it will affect the value and appreciation and can be a pain in the neck to sell. 

This is off topic but I'll ask everyone anyway because we're all friends ( I think ). Obviously White, Off White, Cream, and the elusive Tans and Pinks are page color, or at least that's what I've always thought.. But when you get into Slighltly Brittle and Brittle does the cgc criteria at that point change from page color to page texture? Or maybe they are all regarding page texture. 

[jimbo_7071]

On 10/8/2023 at 1:33 AM, Professor K said:

Hey Jimbo, I don't blame you of course about brittleness but at least it's a naturally occurring consequence that can happen to old paper. I kind of think people are a little too harsh on cgc graded books with slightly brittle pages. We see books sometimes that look great for the grade but have SB pages and boy that puts a hurting on the final hammer. And to try to sell one here on the board, forgetaboutit. I avoid them also but mostly because I know how much it will affect the value and appreciation and can be a pain in the neck to sell. 

This is off topic but I'll ask everyone anyway because we're all friends ( I think ). Obviously White, Off White, Cream, and the elusive Tans and Pinks are page color, or at least that's what I've always thought.. But when you get into Slighltly Brittle and Brittle does the cgc criteria at that point change from page color to page texture? Or maybe they are all regarding page texture. 

All of CGC's designations refer to suppleness rather than color, but there's a strong correlation.

[Dr. Balls]

On 10/7/2023 at 2:01 PM, Ryan. said:

Collecting is often an irrational pursuit. I agree with your logic however I can't deal with having certain defects in my keeper books, such as being incomplete, having brittle pages or trimming. 

I have one book in my collection that has brittle pages, and I thought - at the time - that I’d be okay with it since it had a really nice cover(It’s a Thrilling Crime Cases 49, btw). But I keep getting hung up on the PQ, so I probably won’t pick up another Brittle book.

[jimbo_7071]

On 10/7/2023 at 9:03 PM, Dr. Love said:

Yeh, choice. Someone marries the ugly person with a good personality, someone buys the house overlooking the freeway with 24/7 noise. 

Standards cant be argued with. But flexible standards that depend on what's in your wallet, today, that I dont get so much.

A person may be amenable to changing his or her standards over time, however. There was a time when I would not bid on any book graded below VF—now I really don't care about grade. I care about freshness, including page quality, and eye appeal, but the number in the corner doesn't mean anything to me. I'll take a 5.0 with good eye appeal over a 9.0 with obtrusive foxing and a weak color strike.

The grading of the Promise Collection really opened my eyes. I see grading as a gimmick at this point.

Edited October 8, 2023 by jimbo_7071

[Robot Man]

On 10/7/2023 at 12:53 PM, Point Five said:

I always strongly disliked trimming on SA comics. But to my surprise, I’ve become a big fan of formerly-bound GA comics, which usually had some degree of trimming as part of the process. Like the ones Robot Man shows here, these books can (tho don’t always) have an amazing degree of freshness, which far outweighs the other flaws in my book.

But in broader strokes, yeah, GA books are tougher and trimming doesn’t bug me that much, as long as it’s not so severe that it’s a distraction from the cover.

 

Bound volumes can be a mixed bag. Some are bound at the time of publication by publishers and adult researchers. These are usually uncirculated and beautiful copies protected by the hard covers. As in the case with the Crime & Punishments.

Others such as the MIS and Space Detective volume, were bound by fans who read them before bound resulting in faults due to handling. Often, maybe due to storage, paper quality is low.

Either way, they are a handy way to enjoy a whole run of a title in book form.

The second volume was a flea market find. The guy had 7 different volumes. One was all PCH, one was Sci-Fi, a FH one. They were all from 1951-1953 books. The covers just said “Comics 1” thru 7 on the spines. I almost missed them. I guarantee no comic collector would have left them due to defects! 

[Robot Man]

On 10/8/2023 at 7:32 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

A person may be amenable to changing his or her standards over time, however. There was a time when I would not bid on any book graded below VF—now I really don't care about grade. I care about freshness, including page quality, and eye appeal, but the number in the corner doesn't mean anything to me. I'll take a 5.0 with good eye appeal over a 9.0 with obtrusive foxing and a weak color strike.

The grading of the Promise Collection really opened my eyes. I see grading as a gimmick at this point.

I once went through a period that I didn’t want anything below fine. I stupidly sold off a bunch of vg and lower books. Some real killer ones. Luckily, I came to my senses.

The only books I just won’t buy or keep are brittle, heavily taped, mold or rat chews. Everything else is fair game at this point. 

[badback83]

I usually try to stay away from trimmed copies.  However, lately a few books have come my way that I would never be able to afford if there was no trimming or restoration, including the issue that was number 1 on my all time want list.  So, I feel super fortunate to be able to get it regardless of trimming or restoration.

[Yorick]

On 10/7/2023 at 5:29 PM, ttecwaf said:

With the spine edge of 49 looking so frayed, might it have been removed from a bound volume?  Any perforation of the spine?

[thecollectron]

It does look like it could be a bound volume copy with that notch in the spine.

[ttecwaf]

There is glue on the spine.  Does not look like a book that was removed from a bound volume. 

[Telegan]

On 10/8/2023 at 9:56 AM, Robot Man said:

I once went through a period that I didn’t want anything below fine. I stupidly sold off a bunch of vg and lower books. Some real killer ones. Luckily, I came to my senses.

The only books I just won’t buy or keep are brittle, heavily taped, mold or rat chews. Everything else is fair game at this point. 

I finally broke my "never" rule of buying a rat-chewed book only a few months ago.  I've also said "no brittle books - ever!" and may break that one eventually, too.  I bought a trimmed book for giggles once since it was only about $10-$15, but generally stay away from those. I don't mind some tape on a book, but if "heavily-taped" means it's basically a mummified book, then - no.  Mold scares the hell out of me.

[southern cross]

Amateur restoration the price has to go down.

I won't pay anymore of 50% of fair market value for restored books.

Some collectors pay more and that's up to them.