ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[JC25427N]

On 12/21/2023 at 8:21 PM, Sigur Ros said:

Sounds like you've never owned a slab from the other guys.

If the other guys were the leader in the industry and not seen as lesser by the market in valuation there would be people figuring out similar exploits for them. The only reason they don't is because its not as lucrative as exploiting CGC slabs.

And for this specific exploit its easier when theres a lot more CGC slabs out in the wild to play with than other guy slabs

Edited December 22, 2023 by JC25427N

[Stefan_W]

On 12/21/2023 at 8:30 PM, JC25427N said:

If the other guys were the leader in the industry and not seen as lesser by the market in valuation there would be people figuring out similar exploits for them. The only reason they don't is because its not as lucrative as exploiting CGC slabs.

I am sure it happens with them too. When I do crack and resubs I use a can opener to open up slabs from the other guys, and a lot of times their cases open up without damaging them much (unlike CGC cases). I suspect it would be easier although as you point out it is likely to be less lucrative. Having to wait a year or more for the swapped out slab to come back is probably the biggest deterrent from that end of the market. 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Stefan_W

[comicginger1789]

Why not just do away with reholders? You want your book in the newest slab or updated with a special label now? Sorry pay the full price to grade and have that done. Might be a deek move but at least it rids this problem 

[Lightning55]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:48 PM, Axelrod said:

If it was a re-sub wouldn't it keep the same number?

It depends on the type of re-sub.

If a re-sub for just a new holder, same cert #, unless CGC sees a reason to regrade (possible damage, scs, etc.). If regraded, new cert#.

If a re-sub from CPR, to try for a better grade, it's treated as a raw and gets a new cert#.

[Mikey C]

I think the most important things so far….

There has been 4 confirmed books swapped out:

ASM 252 9.8 MJ custom label - The book that was swapped in hasn’t been uncovered so we’re not sure of the original grade. The book that was the 9.8 newsstand was submitted back to CGC raw in September, got another 9.8 and sold 10/3 on eBay. 
 

New Mutants 98 9.8 MJ blue label - The book that was swapped in hasn’t been uncovered. The book that was originally the 9.8 newsstand (old case) was purchased in July and no trail if or when it was sent back to CGC raw. 
 

Hulk 181 9.0 blue label - Replaced with a Hulk 181 8.5 GREEN label missing MVS

Hulk 181 8.5 blue label - Replaced with Hulk 181 8.5 GREEN label missing page 10. 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Mikey C

[LDarkseid1]

Soo many people want CGC to fail/fold because of this. Just from what I’ve read between YouTube, social media and here. Pretty sad if you ask me. Ultimately, CGC will be fine. This isn’t the first time someone’s defrauded a company, and won’t be last. CGC will figure out what’s going on and handle accordingly. Just like PSA and other prominent collecting companies they’re too imbedded in the industry. There’s also soo many dealers, comic shops and collectors who have millions and millions into graded books. So it’s not in our industry’s interest for CGC to lose their credibility. The only thing that would change my mind is if it became obvious that they were in on it, and I don’t mean one rogue employee but the company as a whole. I’m 100% positive that’s not the case though, just don’t think they would ever do that. I think people need to relax some, wait to get more details and go from there.

And whoever this gutter trash is that scammed CGC and the community, there’s a special place in hell for them. I hope they’re publicly shamed, sued and prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Edited December 22, 2023 by LDarkseid1

[Buzzetta]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:32 PM, DoctorWyoming1 said:

Every time I see an FF 252 evil thoughts rise up. 

 

A certain Long Island Comic Book shop used to do it all the time.  In fact it was more rare to find an FF 252 at his store than a ASM 238.  FF 252's were tucked away as "donor" books. 

 

Store is no longer in business nor has it been for almost fifteen years. 

[Buzzetta]

On 12/21/2023 at 5:52 PM, jsilverjanet said:

just hung up with CGC, and they said they are going to honor the time board tradition of waiting till Friday for a response so this thread can really kick off

 

@jaybuck43

 

[Buzzetta]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:04 PM, jsilverjanet said:

folks what we have here is a perfect storm of biblical proportions

wake up people! I know, I've seen it before many times

friday looming, heading into a long holiday weekend

they probably have their laptops shut down and getting ready for their holiday party

if there was a way to alert the media maybe we could get some traction on this problem

I'm sure they will come in here and play the victim "we had no clue"

what do you think @Buzzetta

fyi - this is my last post

What do I think?

I think I have an urge to play, "Bingo".

[Lightning55]

On 12/21/2023 at 8:25 PM, AbsoluteCarnage said:

Going to go watch the football game here. By the time I get back it'll probably take me 3 hours to catch up to speed.....

I was caught up last night, but it took me almost 4 hours this afternoon to catch up again. I may have to bail, too much life consumed on this.

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/21/2023 at 8:30 PM, JC25427N said:

If the other guys were the leader in the industry and not seen as lesser by the market in valuation there would be people figuring out similar exploits for them. The only reason they don't is because its not as lucrative as exploiting CGC slabs.

Exploit? Probably.

But likely not this one.

There's a big difference between cases. Sturdier, harder to crack, especially without damage, etc.

Short of the inside man I think they'd have to find another option than resealing cracked slabs...  Which looks to be pretty simple with these slabs.

[comicginger1789]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:00 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Cracking out a 9.8 to swap in a 9.6 seems risky.  What if the actual 9.8 doesn’t get a 9.8 on resub?

That’s assuming he resubs the 9.8 to do the scam over again…maybe it works until it doesn’t and then he just moves to another book 🤷‍♂️ 

[Mr. Spider-Woman]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:27 PM, JC25427N said:

I think pages like 10-30 have a drawn out discussion about that including some boardies who are lawyers giving their thoughts

 

On 12/21/2023 at 7:27 PM, sledgehammer said:

That was talked about on all 50 pages from this morning.

 

On 12/21/2023 at 7:57 PM, Lightning55 said:

If you had read a few pages back, a lawyer chimed in with a laundry list of potential offenses, mostly Federal.

 

On 12/21/2023 at 8:03 PM, Lightning55 said:

Yes, I just got there. The posts are coming in faster than I can read and refresh. 4 posts just came while I was typing this one.

But I do know enough to not jump in on page 48 with a comment or a question without reading the thread.

I've read the entire topic, give or take a few posts, and paqart's posts about fraud and counterfeiting and forgery, and I keep circling back to the earlier talk about the seller exploiting a loophole in the CGC reholdering process and vague terms like manipulation and trickery on the part of the seller.

Can the seller pass the buck and blame everything on CGC for sending the lower graded comic back in a new holder with a new label and the old 9.8 grade? That's the grade CGC gave the comic the seller sent them, whether or not it deserves the grade and whether or not it was even looked at rather than slapped in a new holder, sealed, and shipped out the door. 

Is it illegal to crack open a CGC case? Is it illegal to swap out the comic in the inner well? We all know this is shady and paqart talks about forgeries and counterfeiting and whether or not CGC is liable. Plenty of people in this topic have chimed in saying CGC dropped the ball and let this happen. The seller isn't printing fake labels or creating fake comic books (as far as anyone knows). CGC has given their official seal of authenticity to the comics involved. They're real comics with real labels and real grades on the labels, just not the right ones for the comic in the holder. So it's all very confusing to this not-a-lawyer.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Mr. Spider-Woman

[Lightning55]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:00 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Cracking out a 9.8 to swap in a 9.6 seems risky.  What if the actual 9.8 doesn’t get a 9.8 on resub?

It doesn't matter.

The 9.6 (or 9.4, or 9.2) is typically a MJ Newsstand variant, which will now show as a 9.8. That combination sends the value into the stratosphere, like 5x to 10x. He could toss the original 9.8 and still be miles ahead.

[Bo1983]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:53 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

So you're saying you'd still buy those books?

He doesn’t care about the book most only see green it’s a shame really raw is the only way!

[Lightning55]

On 12/21/2023 at 8:56 PM, Mr. Spider-Woman said:

Can the seller pass the buck and blame everything on CGC for sending the lower graded comic back in a new holder with a new label and the old 9.8 grade? That's the grade CGC gave the comic the seller sent them, whether or not it deserves the grade and whether or not it was even looked at rather than slapped in a new holder, sealed, and shipped out the door. 

As a one-off situation, you could claim you got lucky, had no knowledge. 

As a repeated pattern, it's intentional. It's fraud.

[brute_nm]

On 12/20/2023 at 3:10 PM, AbsoluteCarnage said:

I posted the feedback which as someone else mentioned unfortunately was left about "This buyer" and in such a manner the seller could likely have it removed but I'll save ya the time of going back 6 pages or so. 

Bottom line was getting whoever was bidding high on it to be on alert and it seems that the outcome of that was a success whether or not the feedback would stick.

@AbsoluteCarnage, this is a long shot, but do you happen to still have a box with seller's return address? That could be really helpful to investigators.

Edit: obviously don't share it here - share it with law enforcement. I was just wondering

Edited December 22, 2023 by brute_nm

[Bo1983]

On 12/21/2023 at 8:40 PM, LDarkseid1 said:

Soo many people want CGC to fail/fold because of this. Just from what I’ve read between YouTube, social media and here. Pretty sad if you ask me. Ultimately, CGC will be fine. This isn’t the first time someone’s defrauded a company, and won’t be last. CGC will figure out what’s going on and handle accordingly. Just like PSA and other prominent collecting companies they’re too imbedded in the industry. There’s also soo many dealers, comic shops and collectors who have millions and millions into graded books. So it’s not in our industry’s interest for CGC to lose their credibility. The only thing that would change my mind is if it became obvious that they were in on it, and I don’t mean one rogue employee but the company as a whole. I’m 100% positive that’s not the case though, just don’t think they would ever do that. I think people need to relax some, wait to get more details and go from there.

And whoever this gutter trash is that scammed CGC and the community, there’s a special place in hell for them. I hope they’re publicly shamed, sued and prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

People will always find a way that is why slabs are flawed!

[Iconic1s]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:56 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Also getting that info now before theyre sold again will give you pics to compare them in the future. I saved those screenshots, but eBay listings will only show them for so long. Then it is woulda woulda shoulda when they sell next and someone is left holding the bag @GDN @Iconic1s and since you liked his post, I'm sure those who can afford those books would do it. Ha I'm busy as well though so 😂

No Sir, I wouldn’t buy the book… I was just “liking” the post/train of thought.

This does remind me of when I first got to these forums though.  I asked what I thought was an honest question about a book I was interested in.  It was a CGC 9.8 but did not look like a 9.8 at all from the scans.  I was instructed by a highly respected member of this community, to look at the number in the upper left corner of the slab as if I were stupid. Irony 

In that case, I did buy the book and my concerns ended up being caused by the seller’s scanner.

That definitely isn’t the case here though!  This is just another example of CGC cutting corners… pretty obvious that reholders aren’t seen/looked at closely by the graders… they go straight to the same people slabbing shards of plastic, hair, etc with our books, and shipping cracked holders back to us.  When it comes to reholders, this MJ annotation is probably just looked at as a clerical issue that is delegated to these same people… or graders are just too swamped to take a real serious look.  Plus, we already know QC is non-existent… based only on luck and ROI… it’s cheaper to push ‘em through and deal with the small % of books that get sent back, than to fix any ID’ed problem before they leave CGC.

This seller, and maybe others, have probably been doing this awhile because CGC has been more concerned with volume, than quality for a while now.  This just got attention because it was pulled on a very specific type of book that caught the attention of someone that was a true expert on that type of book. 

This incident is a super bummer but not really a surprise based on the way that company is being ran.  BTW - where is CGC on this?

[JC25427N]

On 12/21/2023 at 8:49 PM, Sigur Ros said:

Exploit? Probably.

But likely not this one.

There's a big difference between cases. Sturdier, harder to crack, especially without damage, etc.

Short of the inside man I think they'd have to find another option than resealing cracked slabs...  Which looks to be pretty simple with these slabs.

This really comes off as you looking at the other guys with rose tinted glasses. I've cracked some other guy slabs and CGC slabs, I didn't feel much difference (and I do still own one other guy slab, albeit all the other guy slabs I've ever owned are/were a couple years old, so I don't know if they've gone through another iteration since I've had any). The guy who replied below me says he has an easier time cracking other guy slabs with no damage, so it seems mileage may vary on that aspect. But regardless, even if given the other guys truly did have a sturdier and harder to crack slab, if there was enough financial reason to do so I don't think it would stop a motivated scammer (and given the hoops that this scammer is going through to do this exploit, I don't think it would stop him either. Even in the 20 pages of discussion early on where people were trying to figure out exactly how hes doing this, whether he owns his own sonic weld or not, how he's closing them well enough to fool CGC, there was no definitive conclusion, even we're not sure what hes doing now). I truly don't think the other guys are so above it all that if they were in CGC's position in terms of volume/scale/reputation that they wouldn't fall under the same level of attack from malicious actors, and same level of scrutiny from the community (Which is why when they do have their own incidents, it mostly goes unnoticed, because no one really cares. Like how that issue from last year when the other guys lost about 300 books from Clan McDonalds because they let a grader take the books home to work on them there. That issue was hot for about a week, discussed here for a little bit, and then faded away). But as long as we agree that the other guys would get hit with some exploits even if not this exact one, then that's fine. 

And just to be straight, I don't even collect comic books in any form anymore (I've held on to a few that have special meaning for me), I don't submit to anyone, so I have no dog in the race either way. 

Edited December 22, 2023 by JC25427N