ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Matt1982]

On 1/4/2024 at 1:52 PM, agamoto said:

Seems like quite a different situation to me. There can be no dispute about who the driver was, the work done to not confuse similarly named people in their investigation seems perfectly normal. In this instance, the name of the person(s) involved can be masked, forged, stolen as their crimes are faceless. 

OP is correct that people get named publicly, and this guy will too, eventually. If a criminal case against him is officially filed, or settled, he will be named. If reporters pick it up and investigate, they'll likely use the name and write "allegedly" or other qualifying language everywhere. CGC likely won't name him publicly because if he ends up successfully defending himself they'll get sued for defamation.

[agamoto]

“NGC is not afraid to forcefully pursue those who wish to take advantage of the brand we have built over the past three decades,” said Max Spiegel, the president of the Certified Collectibles Group, NGC’s parent company. “We are not afraid to hire private investigators and outside law firms in order to bring justice to those who wish to steal from members of the numismatic community.”
 

well, there you have it then. Not afraid at all!
 

Seems like dealing with matters in civil court is the way things are done at CCG. No need for any Imperial entanglements that come with federal investigations. 

[Lightning55]

I am surprised that some books are already being crossed off the list, presumably because some "authority" called CGC and explained why it shouldn't be on the list, because no one could have mailed their slab to CGC so quickly to get a determination. 

I would like to see that the number comes off the list because CGC only has in fact removed the book from the holder, authenticated it, and then reholdered, new certification.  And the new certification # should be posted on that line item for a clear paper trail, as well as the old cert # added to the lookup information.

This is a bad situation and needs a clear resolution.  Anyone "fixing" specific books other than CGC only muddies the waters.

[agamoto]

On 1/4/2024 at 12:58 PM, Matt1982 said:

OP is correct that people get named publicly, and this guy will too, eventually. If a criminal case against him is officially filed, or settled, he will be named. If reporters pick it up and investigate, they'll likely use the name and write "allegedly" or other qualifying language everywhere. CGC likely won't name him publicly because if he ends up successfully defending himself they'll get sued for defamation.

I am now convinced No criminal charges will ever be filed, they won’t be calling the FBI. They will tackle this case very much as they did with Mr Dickie Albright and just sue for injunction and restraining order. Whoever the perp is, they will be free to assume new identities and free to try ripping people off again in the future since there will be no criminal repercussions. 

[MasterChief]

Seems to be a lot of talk about CGC taking legal action against the alleged perpetrator tampering with CGC holders. Perhaps in the future it will become known whether or not criminal proceedings were initiated by CGC or the Federal government.

By way of comparison, nothing of any legal consequence was taken by CGC against Jason Ewert as a result of his alleged fraudulent scheme. The only aftereffect that is publicly known is that Ewert was banned from submitting comic books to CGC and that then CGC President, Steve Borock, told Ewert to “get out of the hobby and do not look back.”

The lone litigation initiated against Ewert was driven by a collective of CGC board members and comic book collectors, as announced in The Collector eNewsletter by GPAnalysis in February of 2006. Here’s the announcement as published...

[Lightning55]

On 1/4/2024 at 4:09 PM, agamoto said:

I am now convinced No criminal charges will ever be filed, they won’t be calling the FBI. They will tackle this case very much as they did with Mr Dickie Albright and just sue for injunction and restraining order. Whoever the perp is, they will be free to assume new identities and free to try ripping people off again in the future since there will be no criminal repercussions. 

I suspect there are people doing time currently for fraud or embezzlement, however it was perpetrated.

For this particular situation, if the perpetrator is found to be guilty of fraud, imprisonment would seem appropriate. But we won't know for a while how that goes.

If the only remedy is civil suit, that isn't much of a deterrent.  Even if you are successful and get a judgement, you may find it difficult to collect any damages.  Winning and collecting are 2 different things.

 

[wiparker824]

On 1/4/2024 at 2:06 PM, Lightning55 said:

I am surprised that some books are already being crossed off the list, presumably because some "authority" called CGC and explained why it shouldn't be on the list, because no one could have mailed their slab to CGC so quickly to get a determination. 

I would like to see that the number comes off the list because CGC only has in fact removed the book from the holder, authenticated it, and then reholdered, new certification.  And the new certification # should be posted on that line item for a clear paper trail, as well as the old cert # added to the lookup information.

This is a bad situation and needs a clear resolution.  Anyone "fixing" specific books other than CGC only muddies the waters.

ComicLink posted that they were doing just that. Not sure which books they had crossed off but they did say their proof was they have a record the person bought it from them, then reholdered it, then resold it thru them and the book is identical in images they have from the before and after reholder. 
 

But it is a really weird look to put out a list asking for people to send the books in and the next day start crossing them off.

[MB1952]

On 1/4/2024 at 12:39 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

I hear you, and idk if there is any real answer. Just looking at the time period it was  hundreds of books, with small notations, and....

They were mostly reholder? with no actual "real straight submissions?" I mean where did cgc think that he was getting these books for reholder "from?'

Unless he also had regular submissions? 

Idk if there is any "real answer that isn't speculation" but those are hundreds of comics for small notations.... idk 

same reason why whoever is in control of CGC QC has Fail for some time. "Where in the world was the QC at CGC " With so many Red Flags. 

[LordRahl]

On 1/4/2024 at 1:13 PM, MasterChief said:

Seems to be a lot of talk about CGC taking legal action against the alleged perpetrator tampering with CGC holders. Perhaps in the future it will become known whether or not criminal proceedings were initiated by CGC or the Federal government.

By way of comparison, nothing of any legal consequence was taken by CGC against Jason Ewert as a result of his alleged fraudulent scheme. The only aftereffect that is publicly known is that Ewert was banned from submitting comic books to CGC and that then CGC President, Steve Borock, told Ewert to “get out of the hobby and do not look back.”

The lone litigation initiated against Ewert was driven by a collective of CGC board members and comic book collectors, as announced in The Collector eNewsletter by GPAnalysis in February of 2006. Here’s the announcement as published...

Perfect illustration of what NWO @NewWorldOrder and I have said multiple times in this thread. 

[Sigur Ros]

On 1/4/2024 at 12:27 PM, agamoto said:

This is just one of the many reasons why those victimized should be submitting a report to the FBI to investigate this matter and not just reaching out to CGC. This is potentially a 7 figure interstate wire fraud case affecting HUNDREDS of consumers. One of the things the FBI instructs people NOT to do in these sorts of crimes is self-investigate. Why? Because it actually can lead to evidence getting tainted, hidden or destroyed. The suspect, who is certainly more than aware of what's going on, has been deleting ads, disabling accounts, privating feedback for old and new accounts, Comiclink has said they are removing archived listings. CGC has offered some level of transparency with this list, but the list doesn't include all the perp's submissions... Each one of those books on the list has 4 or 5 other books that got sent in with it that for whatever reason they didn't choose to list. Fine and dandy that CGC is investigating itself, however it's not their job to gather evidence against the perp, nor do they have the jurisdiction and power to gather evidence everywhere it needs to be gathered. While I don't want to believe there's an inside component to all this, the number of 9.8's this clown was getting handed out and his QUITE "statistically significant" cornering of the market on the ASM194 9.8's, etc. tells me that a proper law enforcement body should be investigating this matter both within and without and I want to hear this from CGC. A vague statement is not enough and telling victims to only contact them sure looks to me like a damage control measure and not an attempt to bring this dude (or dudes) to criminal justice. 

"Hello, United States FBI, How can I help you?"

"I'm sorry, you want help with what?"

"Did you say comic books?"

"okay" 

*click*

 

[sledgehammer]

maybe a time period of six months after this scandal was revealed is a better time to compare the two.

instead of the three weeks, that this scandal is currently sitting at.

[sledgehammer]

On 1/4/2024 at 2:16 PM, agamoto said:

Absolutely no one should be named until the matter is fully investigated and indictments filed. We have no idea who may actually be behind the curtain and it’s possible CGC doesn’t know for sure either. It could all be stolen identities in play, and announcing to the world who the perp they think it might be without sufficient proof and conviction on record is a recipe to have your bum handed to you in a defamation suit.

what if I call him, a person of interest?

[agamoto]

On 1/4/2024 at 1:31 PM, Sigur Ros said:

"Hello, United States FBI, How can I help you?"

"I'm sorry, you want help with what?"

"Did you say comic books?"

"okay" 

*click*

 

(calls back)

"Hello, United States FBI, How can I help you?"

"Sorry, we must have been disconnected. Did you say $5000 comic books?"

"Woah, potentially 350 books? Over a million dollars in value?"

"Wow-wee! I remember when comics only used to cost a dime!"

"And potentially hundreds of victims across the USA?"

"And most, if not all, the trade in these books was over the Internet?"

"Okay, please hold" 

"Hello, this is the Internet Crime Complaint Center, AKA IC3, how can we help?"

"Yeah, just file a complaint at ic3.gov"

 

[SpineTic]

 

[Silver Surfer]

On 1/4/2024 at 1:13 PM, MasterChief said:

Seems to be a lot of talk about CGC taking legal action against the alleged perpetrator tampering with CGC holders. Perhaps in the future it will become known whether or not criminal proceedings were initiated by CGC or the Federal government.

By way of comparison, nothing of any legal consequence was taken by CGC against Jason Ewert as a result of his alleged fraudulent scheme. The only aftereffect that is publicly known is that Ewert was banned from submitting comic books to CGC and that then CGC President, Steve Borock, told Ewert to “get out of the hobby and do not look back.”

The lone litigation initiated against Ewert was driven by a collective of CGC board members and comic book collectors, as announced in The Collector eNewsletter by GPAnalysis in February of 2006. Here’s the announcement as published...

What ever happened with that, I’m guessing an out of court settlement and no omission of any guilt?

[agamoto]

On 1/4/2024 at 1:56 PM, sledgehammer said:

what if I call him, a person of interest?

I have a degree in journalism, one of our classes dealt with journalistic ethics and avoiding defamation lawsuits. We were taught never to write "John Doe from Buttphuk, AZ, was arrested for armed robbery today..."

You had to split it up... "A Buttphuk, AZ man has been arrested and charged with armed robbery." and then followed separately with "John Doe is currently being held by Butphuk PD without bond at this hour." 

[Sigur Ros]

On 1/4/2024 at 3:31 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

If this guy was sending in so much for reholder, then why wouldn't cgc notice that?

*coughinsidemancough*

[agamoto]

On 1/4/2024 at 2:16 PM, Sigur Ros said:

*coughinsidemancough*

*coughHowTheHellDoesAnyoneGetFiftySevenSpidey194's@9.8scough*

[sledgehammer]

On 1/4/2024 at 4:16 PM, agamoto said:

I have a degree in journalism, one of our classes dealt with journalistic ethics and avoiding defamation lawsuits. We were taught never to write "John Doe from Buttphuk, AZ, was arrested for armed robbery today..."

You had to split it up... "A Buttphuk, AZ man has been arrested and charged with armed robbery." and then followed separately with "John Doe is currently being held by Butphuk PD without bond at this hour." 

[LordRahl]

On 1/4/2024 at 2:19 PM, agamoto said:

*coughHowTheHellDoesAnyoneGetFiftySevenSpidey194's@9.8scough*

Right! I mean the ASM 300's I get but 194's? Random!