ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Chip Cataldo]

On 1/6/2024 at 7:03 PM, agamoto said:

Nothing changes if their problems are, once again, handled in-house like they were with previous scandals and no fraud investigation by the feds takes place. 

Why are you so hard for the feds getting involved? This is nothing they'll EVER be concerned with. They barely have enough manpower to go after the legit horrible stuff that happens in this country, let alone these small potatoes.

[Chip Cataldo]

On 1/6/2024 at 7:02 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Lol. The truth hurts. 

[THE_BEYONDER]

300 pages!!!

[atomised]

On 1/6/2024 at 3:30 PM, GDN said:

The plot thickens???

 

 

7mins into this video and this youtuber still hasn't said a damn thing about anything, but glad to hear all the shout outs to people I don't know or care about

[BlancoBros]

On 1/6/2024 at 6:48 PM, GDN said:

I haven't watched it all.  They talk about a shop possibly involved in NYC.  They talk about a FF2 that a guy bought in person from our scammer which appears micro-trimmed and isn't on the CGC list.  Lots of talking around the subject without naming names.

 

Edit: after watching a bit more one thing is that the guy who bought the FF2 (not on CGC list) was also offered a lot more books for sale via text...one of which is the ASM 13 that is on CGC list.  But more importantly all the other books excepting the ASM 13 are NOT on the CGC list.  

 

He mentioned the books have the same background.

Ff#2 - 1175918001 (not on the list, they said it appears to be trimmed)

Asm #13 - 1296364022 (on the list)

Edited January 7 by BlancoBros
Typo

[Number 6]

On 1/6/2024 at 3:49 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

If you're talking about me, who said I didn't buy slabs?

You did. 
 

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/6/2024 at 7:18 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

Lol. The truth hurts. 

I’m not hurt.  CGC could collapse tomorrow and I wouldn’t be impacted 

[Chip Cataldo]

On 1/6/2024 at 7:23 PM, Number 6 said:

You did. 

Gotcha. I wasn't clear. My apologies.

For my personal collection, I only have raw books.

[Chip Cataldo]

On 1/6/2024 at 7:27 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I’m not hurt.  CGC could collapse tomorrow and I wouldn’t be impacted 

As Lionel Ritchie sang, "That's the way it should be..." 

[agamoto]

On 1/6/2024 at 4:12 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

What actually changes if the feds get involved this time?

People go to jail for the fraud. They can access eBay Facebook, IG info to find conspirators. Funds and assets get seized to pay restitution. Accounts get frozen. CGC itself gets scrutinized and they can help identify patterns to reveal other scammers. It can also help to ensure there is no one helping them on the inside. Perps get a taste of prison, which is a great incentive not to try scamming again.

lots of good reasons

[agamoto]

On 1/6/2024 at 4:18 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

Why are you so hard for the feds getting involved? This is nothing they'll EVER be concerned with. They barely have enough manpower to go after the legit horrible stuff that happens in this country, let alone these small potatoes.

Nonsense. 

[Yorick]

On 1/6/2024 at 4:32 PM, agamoto said:

People go to jail for the fraud. They can access eBay Facebook, IG info to find conspirators. Funds and assets get seized to pay restitution. Accounts get frozen. CGC itself gets scrutinized and they can help identify patterns to reveal other scammers. It can also help to ensure there is no one helping them on the inside. Perps get a taste of prison, which is a great incentive not to try scamming again.

lots of good reasons

Deterrence for other potential scammers. 

[GDN]

On 1/6/2024 at 4:22 PM, atomised said:

7mins into this video and this youtuber still hasn't said a damn thing about anything, but glad to hear all the shout outs to people I don't know or care about

Main takeaways:  The guy Mike D. bought FF2 direct from the scammer and was offered a long list of other books.  One of which is the ASM 13 on CGC's list.  However, all the other books aren't on CGC's list.  Other talking point was that the scammer was associated to some extent with a shop in NYC.

Just more evidence that the 350 books is not even close to the real number.  I mean we already knew that from all the missing cert numbers that were in submissions with the other 350 books.  But just some more evidence.

[comicwiz]

UPDATED - see below where it's tagged Updated 1/11/2024

Something about the resale pattern on this book made me stop to look at it more closely. The characteristics on the wrap appear to change noticeably between 2/9/2020 and when it reappears 11/10/2020. The listing from 3/11/20 is one of the records where I can't find it on worthpoint so I've greyed it out. I've run into this issue with this seller on a number of their listings. Regardless, the worthpoint listings are there, and are visible on the ones with a link.

The white on the spine appears to expand on 11/10/2020, there is soiling behind Rockwell's back, and a horizontal crimp on the spine across from the word step that did not exist in the two earlier listings. There's other characteristics, but those are the ones easier to ascertain when comparing between the 2/9/2020 listing, and the 11/10/2020 given the quality of the photos each listing provides.

If CGC gets this book, they should check the ink is live on that sig. Unfortunately, without holding this in hand, I can't go any further than the visual assessment provided by the photos in the original listing, but between the patterns and changes I've described, this is a candidate which I'd urge be sent in for review as it is one of the books on the impacted list. I've drawn an arrowed red line between the events I describe. The two listings above that red line are where I began noticing the characteristic differences.

1478893002 - Avengers #57

254538011138 Cert: 1478893002 [3/11/2020] - $9,999
Avengers, The (1963) #57 CGC 9.6 (no WP listing)

114552992518 Cert: 1478893002 [4/19/2021 | $18,600
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/avengers-57-cgc-6-1st-vision-stan-lee-3833745603

114510968331 Cert: 1478893002 [11/10/2020 | $25,500
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/avengers-57-oct-1968-marvel-cgc-6-ss-3759092306

<------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

254498507786 Cert: 1478893002 | [2/9/2020 | $6,900
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/avengers-57-cgc-6-1st-app-vision-stan-2063802910

283133511712 Cert: 1478893002 | [9/12/2018 | $6,800
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/avengers-57-cgc-6-1st-vision-stan-lee-1945235157

==================================================================================================

UPDATED (1/11/2024) Begins here:

This is one of the books I was going to hold back on, but there's some developments which have caused me to reconsider. Namely, that I'm unsure why CGC is removing certs from the verification look-up, as well as modifiying grade origin dates. I posted about it this past Saturday, and had decided it went over most everyone's head, and to leave it for a later time.

This is going to be a little different from previous shares, in that I'm going to post the information, and I'm going to refrain from sharing my analysis. I kind of give a clue on it in the previous post (see above), but I feel it's important at this point to update it for posterity. It can pottentially be nothing, or a watershed discovery. 

As I indicated previously, the resale pattern is what struck me about this the most, and that caused me to look into it further. But since that time, I've also noticed a similar pattern on other SS books. It's got 5 past sales data points, but the way the book moves through sellers alleged to be connected to this "holder tampering" is a repeat pattern I've noticed on other books. It's complicated by several factors, one being that there is no before occurrence on a unique signed book. Except if we consider that these unique books also have no reason to experience any changes in a sealed inner well - more specifically, a seal breach on a SS means invalidating a witnessed signature. I've given a clue in my previous post on what I think is happening here, but I'll post photos for now and leave it to the forumites to form their own opinions on what could explain these observed characteristic changes, and how they may have occurred.

The chronological order that follows will be from the earliest date to the last sale. Unfortunately that last sale has no WP listing, but we can track it well enough through the listings we can see.

Beginning first with the cert lookup (for posterity in case this changes):

283133511712 Cert: 1478893002 | [9/12/2018 | $6,800

 

 

254498507786 Cert: 1478893002 | [2/9/2020 | $6,900

<---------------------------------- NOTED CHANGES ARE OBSERVED FROM LISTING BELOW ----------------------------------->

114510968331 Cert: 1478893002 [11/10/2020 | $25,500 (front photo only provided, blurry, no back cover pic)

 

114552992518 Cert: 1478893002 [4/19/2021 | $18,600

There is one other sale after this but no WP listing can be mined for it:

eBay item no: 254538011138 Cert: 1478893002 [3/11/2020] - $9,999
Avengers, The (1963) #57 CGC 9.6 (no WP listing)

Additional Close-Up Comparisons:

Pic 1:

Pic 2:

Pic 3:

 

Edited January 12 by comicwiz

[brute_nm]

On 1/6/2024 at 10:44 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I believe that poster updates that post as we go along 

 

@brute_nm

Correct, I've been updating as @comicwiz and @agamoto (and others) find more.

I'm trying to keep up with the thread - please let me know if I've missed anything!

[brute_nm]

On 1/6/2024 at 5:52 PM, comicwiz said:

Something about the resale pattern on this book made me stop to look at it more closely. The characteristics on the wrap appear to change noticeably between 2/9/2020 and when it reappears 11/10/2020. The listing from 3/11/20 is one of the records where I can't find it on worthpoint. I've run into this issue with this seller on a number of their listings. Regardless, the worthpoint listings are there, and are visible on the ones with a link.

The white on the spine appears to expand after 11/10/2020, there is soiling behind Rockwell's back, and a horizontal crimp on the spine across from the word step that did not exist in the two earlier listings. There's other characteristics, but those are the ones easier to ascertain when comparing between the 2/9/2020 listing, and the 11/10/2020 given the quality of the photos each listing provides.

If CGC gets this book, they should check the ink is live on that sig. Unfortunately, without holding this in hand, I can't go any further than the visual assessment provided by the photos in the original listing, but between the patterns and changes I've described, this is a candidate which I'd urge be sent in for review as it is one of the books on the impacted list. I've drawn an arrowed red line between the events I describe. The two listings above that red line are where I began noticing the characteristic differences.

1478893002 - Avengers #57

254538011138 Cert: 1478893002 [3/11/2020] - $9,999
Avengers, The (1963) #57 CGC 9.6 (no WP listing)

114552992518 Cert: 1478893002 [4/19/2021 | $18,600
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/avengers-57-cgc-6-1st-vision-stan-lee-3833745603

114510968331 Cert: 1478893002 [11/10/2020 | $25,500
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/avengers-57-cgc-6-1st-vision-stan-lee-3833745603

<------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

254498507786 Cert: 1478893002 | [2/9/2020 | $6,900
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/avengers-57-cgc-6-1st-app-vision-stan-2063802910

283133511712 Cert: 1478893002 | [9/12/2018 | $6,800
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/avengers-57-cgc-6-1st-vision-stan-lee-19452351

 

@CGC Mike, what is the protocol to have more cert #'s added to the list? Send an email? Does the email have to come from the owner or can we report fishy stuff we find?

[comicwiz]

On 1/6/2024 at 8:12 PM, brute_nm said:

@CGC Mike, what is the protocol to have more cert #'s added to the list? Send an email? Does the email have to come from the owner or can we report fishy stuff we find?

To be clear, this is on the impacted list, however I have provided a little more detail as to what they should check for on that submission should it be sent in for review.

[Chip Cataldo]

On 1/6/2024 at 7:35 PM, agamoto said:

Nonsense. 

To bring up an ancient Internet term...PPOR.

[CGC Mike]

On 1/6/2024 at 8:12 PM, brute_nm said:

@CGC Mike, what is the protocol to have more cert #'s added to the list? Send an email? Does the email have to come from the owner or can we report fishy stuff we find?

Any and all info regarding this can be sent in by anyone.  There is no such thing as too much info, and all is welcome.

[pdags]

On 1/6/2024 at 7:52 PM, comicwiz said:

283133511712 Cert: 1478893002 | [9/12/2018 | $6,800
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/avengers-57-cgc-6-1st-vision-stan-lee-19452351

This link isn't working for me.  Did you cut off a number or two?