ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Lightning55]

On 1/16/2024 at 1:30 PM, thehumantorch said:

Inspecting the interior of the book is the only way to check for the MVS

Maybe, for the suspected greens to blue on the list, they are just presuming it has been swapped, and immediately compensate the owner. They then keep it untouched, open it later in view of authorities to see what is actually in there.

[ThothAmon]

On 1/16/2024 at 1:20 PM, MAR1979 said:

CGC having the slab back in the first place would poison the chain

This wouldn’t be a problem and in any criminal trial the books could come into evidence through a CGC witness who would be able to provide the requisite testimony to enter into evidence. Would need some of the buyers of the fraudulent books to testify. My guess though, depending on prior criminal conduct, this guy would be allowed a felony plea with probation in state court. Sadly the dollar amount is probably not high enough to interest the Feds. 
 

On 1/16/2024 at 12:37 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

I knew we were going to get careful answers

 

Great video and I’m very grateful to Matt Nelson for participating. Funny but what stands out to me in the video is Matt referring to comic collecting three separate times as a hobby. lol, expensive hobby. Congratulations to the fellows who broke this case and I think the award from CGC was a nice touch. What’s done in the dark will sooner or later be brought to the light especially in the world of comic book collecting. 

[J Bill]

On 1/16/2024 at 1:10 PM, ThothAmon said:

Congratulations to the fellows who broke this case and I think the award from CGC was a nice touch.

I'd be shocked if @comicwiz doesn't get the Hobby Hero plaque also!

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 1/16/2024 at 1:14 PM, J Bill said:

On 1/16/2024 at 1:10 PM, ThothAmon said:

Congratulations to the fellows who broke this case and I think the award from CGC was a nice touch.

I'd be shocked if @comicwiz doesn't get the Hobby Hero plaque also!

I honestly thought the same  

[GDN]

I guess if they do have scans of all graded books going back for years then they could just compare covers of the questionable books to the scans without opening to see if the MVS or tattoos are there.

The MJI you should be able to see from the side without opening.  I know the 99newstand mentioned there is another way to tell if a book is MJ without opening it.

[comicjel]

On 1/16/2024 at 1:30 PM, thehumantorch said:

Inspecting the interior of the book is the only way to check for the MVS

I suspect they are only determining that the book currently in the slab is not the book that was originally graded - you do not need to open the case / book to determine that it is a different book if you have scans of the originally graded book.

I very much doubt they are seeing a different book, but thinking it looks in similar grade, so all good!

Basically, any book that was not the originally graded book, but otherwise looks to be in the same grade is likely assumed to be restored; missing a page; missing a MVS; etc.

[WNY]

On 1/16/2024 at 2:14 PM, J Bill said:

I'd be shocked if @comicwiz doesn't get the Hobby Hero plaque also!

Agree fully. @comicwiz needs that recognition and then some. Others on the boards as well that have been doing the digging. 

[Microchip]

He raises some great points on Dave's video, and additional points around any price impacts on the books involved in the scam.    He give full kudos to Dave and co for putting the interview with Matt together. 

 

 

 

[agamoto]

On 1/16/2024 at 9:24 AM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

Well, I tried!

Certain people have said it wasn't punchy enough, well I'm not a journalist, nor do I invite people onto my channel to "gotcha" them. 

You did nothing wrong. You're correct, you're not a journalist. Which is why they agreed to talk to you when they should be talking to the media outlets who are covering this story. That said, there's nothing "gotcha" about trying to get to the truth of a matter. 99 did a great job near the end with his followup regarding how they'll handle qualified swapped 181's. Cable news level followup question there!

On 1/16/2024 at 10:20 AM, MAR1979 said:

CGC having the slab back in the first place would poison the chain. Especially as they have the requisite equipment and ability to do anything they like with the slabs

I think the only way the slabs would be admissible in court is if an entity like the FBI had collected the suspect slabs.

  @ThothAmon , curious on your interpretation.

Of course 0 chance this gets to a courtroom, Blackstone will do anything in their fiscal power to avoid being subject to a discovery process.

Bingo! Kroll could be dotting every i and crossing every t, it doesn't matter. A decent defense attorney can have everything Kroll touches thrown out of court in a criminal trial, and I think you hit the nail right on the head about discovery. Pursuing any criminal charges means the accussed's defense gets to depose people, they get to see emails, records, dig into every dirty little corner of CGC's history. That ain't happening. Matt saying they intend to prosecute does not mean what people think it means... And hey Matt, if you're reading this, it's REALLY easy to clear all that up with a statement saying law enforcement agents are investigating and you do hope an indictment is made. You can totally say those things, unless your counsel is screaming at you not to of course, which I'm certain is the case.

On 1/16/2024 at 10:35 AM, J Bill said:

I would think so but Matt seems to indicate they have other methods, unless I'm misinterpreting?

Think of it this way... If your watch is able to figure out how much oxygen is in your blood, and we have telescopes which use the light spectrum to detect the ratio of molecular compounds in the atmosphere of a planet light years away, then they have the technology to blast a light through a comic where an MVS would be, even if still inside a case, and tell you if a page or a coupon is clipped out based on the ever so slight difference in brightness on the other end.

On 1/16/2024 at 11:14 AM, J Bill said:

I'd be shocked if @comicwiz doesn't get the Hobby Hero plaque also!

Cringe factor went past 11 on that one.

[spideyfan68]

I know there has been speculation if criminal charges are coming, I was glad to hear Matt say that for the individual that perpetrated this scheme they intend to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law. 

[tmac100]

On 1/16/2024 at 11:04 AM, wiparker824 said:

Well done. Of course you know this forum and thread (myself included) are going to be filled with the people who Manu mentioned at the end that are going to be saying “why didn’t you ask this!” But before I get to that just wanted to say thank you to both of you and @mnelsonCGC for doing this and do hope you guys come together for a part 2.

Quick thoughts: 

1. The final note about them not opening holders sent back to them on this list to verify is very interesting. This tells me they have some tool or process already in place to determine a book was swapped by this individual. What that may be I understand they can’t divulge but it is very interesting. I think a lot of us thought that the books were all being cracked, regraded and checked for things like MJI, MVS, if they are the grade they say, coupon cut, resto, live ink on signatures, etc. How they are doing that without cracking the books is certainly fascinating.

2. The lone individual responsible I’d have liked to know if they’ve narrowed it to one individual who submitted the reholders or one CGC account that might have been used by one or multiple individuals. Furthermore was the party that submitted the reholders the same party that then sold the fraudulent books immediately after (thru eBay, CL or anywhere else) or was the person that submitted for reholders using a dealer account to handle their submissions and then reselling later.

3. Since the AF 15 SS was brought up Matt said he’s not seen that book personally yet. Which I know Matt isn’t the only one that works at CGC but that book seems like one he’d have seen if it came thru? Yet the grade date was updated to 1/5/24 on that book. This implies the book was regraded 2 days after the list was provided on 1/3/24. If it’s not in their possession why was the graded date updated? How was it graded? And if it’s a clean bill of health why wasn’t it crossed out after being graded?

 

Regarding the AF 15 SS - My guess is they don't need the book back to tell if it's legit or not.  They likely have pictures of the before and after for all their books already (as others have mentioned), so they can tell that the book wasn't swapped out.  Same for other books that have been crossed off the list which is why they don't need to crack it open to see the MVS is missing - maybe they can link it back to a previously graded 181 with a missing MVS by comparing the pictures.  For the scam to work, he would need a previously graded 181 with a missing MVS still in the holder.

As to why they didn't cross the AF 15 SS off the list, maybe they know that it is legitimate from comparing pictures - but know it is also still part of the scammer's personal collection because there is no recorded sale of it.  What better way to screw him than preventing him from ever selling it unless he contacts CGC to get it off the list...If it was sold off-market, then the new owners can still contact CGC to get it removed.

[Brock]

On 1/16/2024 at 1:30 PM, thehumantorch said:

Inspecting the interior of the book is the only way to check for the MVS

 

On 1/16/2024 at 1:44 PM, thehumantorch said:

I haven't watched the video but can't imagine how they could determine the MVS was inside without inspection.

 

On 1/16/2024 at 5:32 PM, agamoto said:

Think of it this way... If your watch is able to figure out how much oxygen is in your blood, and we have telescopes which use the light spectrum to detect the ratio of molecular compounds in the atmosphere of a planet light years away, then they have the technology to blast a light through a comic where an MVS would be, even if still inside a case, and tell you if a page or a coupon is clipped out based on the ever so slight difference in brightness on the other end.

The technology to see inside the book without opening either the case or the book is readily available already. See the following video from the University of Kentucky for a more complex example already in use:

https://youtu.be/Z_L1oN8y7Bs?si=1J25GYw3ZtBukkk1

 

[agamoto]

On 1/16/2024 at 2:56 PM, spideyfan68 said:

I know there has been speculation if criminal charges are coming, I was glad to hear Matt say that for the individual that perpetrated this scheme they intend to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law. 

CGC can't "prosecute" anyone. 

They will certainly sue the fellow they think is responsible for injunctive relief and a restraining order preventing him from attempting to sell any books with CGC's good name on them for fear they've been tampered with. And CGC will only need to prove with a preponderance of evidence that this is what's been happening. That's the info their internal investigation is digging up right now. They may even successfully convince a judge in civil court to force the perp to hand over every single CGC slab they still have in their possession, although, by now, anyone with half a brain would have liquidated every CGC book they've got or transferred them to another arm's length entity. I think Sledgehammer might be able to let them know about recent corporations formed in a certain US state. 

What CGC cannot do is prosecute anyone. With federal crimes, only a US DA's office can do that and that decision is normally based upon the quality of the evidence gathered by federal/state/local investigators and usually not by a private investigator. While some evidence gathered through a private investigation can lead to a criminal probe by feds, and some evidence they've gathered can even be admissble provided it's handled right, I highly doubt any DA is going to choose to prosecute  soley relying on evidence privately collected to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in federal criminal court. So, if you're someone who'd love to see this scammer behind bars, it's not happening unless there's a federal law enforcement agency investigating alongside Kroll, the PI's CGC hired.

Just as Mr. Nelson has let us know they're working with Kroll, he could have also let us know if they are coordinating with any law enforcement agency investigation. One has to wonder why that is when it's so incredibly easy to do with absolutely zero downside or risk to any ongoing investigation. What he does NOT want to say is that they are cooperating with law enforcement, if they actually are not. 

Come on back to this message a year from now after CGC puts out a press release declaring victory against the Mark's Jeweler Fooler in their lawsuit for injunctive relief and a permanent restraining order, in seizing all the perps's CGC books and settling the case out of court for an undisclosed amount, all of it wrapped tightly around an ironclad NDA with zero criminal charges against anyone. 

 

[Chip Cataldo]

On 1/16/2024 at 6:51 PM, agamoto said:

Come on back to this message a year from now after CGC puts out a press release declaring victory against the Mark's Jeweler Fooler in their lawsuit for injunctive relief and a permanent restraining order, in seizing all the perps's CGC books and settling the case out of court for an undisclosed amount, all of it wrapped tightly around an ironclad NDA with zero criminal charges against anyone. 

Finally, you're back to reality with this statement. 

[agamoto]

On 1/16/2024 at 3:49 PM, Brock said:

The technology to see inside the book without opening either the case or the book is readily available already. See the following video from the University of Kentucky for a more complex example already in use:

https://youtu.be/Z_L1oN8y7Bs?si=1J25GYw3ZtBukkk1

 

I've watched that story, amazing technology. With the missing page/MVS problem, shining a light through the book, then measuring the output to fine degree on the opposite side, I think you'd be be able to cheaply and reliably detect a missing page or a cut coupon based on expected and measured values... Hell, you could probably also use it to mechanically detect tape, tear-seal restoration, added pieces, spine reinforement, inpainting. etc. 

[grendel013]

If this turns into another AI thread I'm taking my slabs and going home.

[comeaux]

On 1/16/2024 at 10:13 AM, BrashL said:

The only reasonable conclusion is they know this is widespread and don't want to be inundated with returns and refunds. 

Be careful, you’ll distress the natives 

[thehumantorch]

On 1/16/2024 at 11:46 AM, pdags said:

I agree... but I know a guy that used to use a stud-finder to buy every pack-of-cards that had hologram or thicker card inside them.  CGC may be able to do something comparable...  Not saying a stud finder is the perfect solution, but CGC may have crafty ways to determine certain things.

For instance, a stud finder calibrated on a normal, slabbed book may alert on a slab with the same book but with a MJI (or a book with something else inside of it).  I'm Just saying, "there's a chance".   

And I know a guy who would weight each pack of cards to pull out the foils.  There's some sneaky guys out there.

There was a local dealer who had a Hulk 181 with the wrong MVS.  artboy99 pointed out to him that it had the wrong MVS, ie someone had married in the pages from Hulk 179 so it appeared complete.  He put it aside but continued to try to sell it without disclosing that it was tampered with and I've never purchased from him since.  There's no way to detect a married in MVS unless you open the book.

 

[Microchip]

On 1/17/2024 at 1:08 PM, thehumantorch said:

And I know a guy who would weight each pack of cards to pull out the foils.  There's some sneaky guys out there.

There was a local dealer who had a Hulk 181 with the wrong MVS.  artboy99 pointed out to him that it had the wrong MVS, ie someone had married in the pages from Hulk 179 so it appeared complete.  He put it aside but continued to try to sell it without disclosing that it was tampered with and I've never purchased from him since.  There's no way to detect a married in MVS unless you open the book.

 

This issue is as old as comic collecting itself, and has been in play before this scam was discovered.   CGC was the cure for this, give or take 350 pages, and a dozen podcasts looking at the loophole. 

[wiparker824]

On 1/16/2024 at 4:03 PM, tmac100 said:

Regarding the AF 15 SS - My guess is they don't need the book back to tell if it's legit or not.  They likely have pictures of the before and after for all their books already (as others have mentioned), so they can tell that the book wasn't swapped out.  Same for other books that have been crossed off the list which is why they don't need to crack it open to see the MVS is missing - maybe they can link it back to a previously graded 181 with a missing MVS by comparing the pictures.  For the scam to work, he would need a previously graded 181 with a missing MVS still in the holder.

As to why they didn't cross the AF 15 SS off the list, maybe they know that it is legitimate from comparing pictures - but know it is also still part of the scammer's personal collection because there is no recorded sale of it.  What better way to screw him than preventing him from ever selling it unless he contacts CGC to get it off the list...If it was sold off-market, then the new owners can still contact CGC to get it removed.

My point wasn’t whether it’s legitimate or not, it very much looks legitimate. My point was he said he hasn’t seen it yet. Why was the graded date updated to 1/5/24 if it wasn’t re-graded on 1/5/24? None of the other books that I’m aware of had their graded date updated and also still retained their cert. Consistency matters right now. 

Also have never bought the idea CGC put books on this list to “punish” the scammer. The punishment should be in the form of criminal charges first of all, second of all they have no idea if this person sold the book privately or not. And even if this book was put on the list for this reason it still doesn’t address my main point which is why was the graded date updated if it’s not in their possession and they’ve not regraded it?

Edited January 17 by wiparker824