ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Mgc015]

Quick question that has probably already been asked and answered (I read the first 100 pages but couldn’t keep up with every single page here)…when you look up a book with the Cert # and it gives you all of the info about the book, could they also add in if the book has ever been reholdered and what the date was of that reholdering? I don’t know if that would help every circumstance, but if I were buying a book and saw it had been reholdered, I would be much more careful with my evaluation of the book before buying it. (If this is helpful, I will give my address so you can send me my plaque.😁)

[Lightning55]

On 1/16/2024 at 11:47 PM, Mgc015 said:

Quick question that has probably already been asked and answered (I read the first 100 pages but couldn’t keep up with every single page here)…when you look up a book with the Cert # and it gives you all of the info about the book, could they also add in if the book has ever been reholdered and what the date was of that reholdering? I don’t know if that would help every circumstance, but if I were buying a book and saw it had been reholdered, I would be much more careful with my evaluation of the book before buying it. (If this is helpful, I will give my address so you can send me my plaque.😁)

Yes, it was previously suggested, a couple of times during this long journey. 

They could  add a few things to the lookup page - maybe a History tab with all known movement (sales history, reholder history, photos of each time it was processed in any way, etc. Sort of like a vehicle title history. 

Maybe someday we will be saying "Show me the SlabFax".

[Lightning55]

On 1/16/2024 at 6:51 PM, agamoto said:

CGC can't "prosecute" anyone. 

They will certainly sue the fellow they think is responsible for injunctive relief and a restraining order preventing him from attempting to sell any books with CGC's good name on them for fear they've been tampered with. And CGC will only need to prove with a preponderance of evidence that this is what's been happening. That's the info their internal investigation is digging up right now. They may even successfully convince a judge in civil court to force the perp to hand over every single CGC slab they still have in their possession, although, by now, anyone with half a brain would have liquidated every CGC book they've got or transferred them to another arm's length entity. I think Sledgehammer might be able to let them know about recent corporations formed in a certain US state. 

What CGC cannot do is prosecute anyone. With federal crimes, only a US DA's office can do that and that decision is normally based upon the quality of the evidence gathered by federal/state/local investigators and usually not by a private investigator. While some evidence gathered through a private investigation can lead to a criminal probe by feds, and some evidence they've gathered can even be admissble provided it's handled right, I highly doubt any DA is going to choose to prosecute  soley relying on evidence privately collected to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in federal criminal court. So, if you're someone who'd love to see this scammer behind bars, it's not happening unless there's a federal law enforcement agency investigating alongside Kroll, the PI's CGC hired.

Just as Mr. Nelson has let us know they're working with Kroll, he could have also let us know if they are coordinating with any law enforcement agency investigation. One has to wonder why that is when it's so incredibly easy to do with absolutely zero downside or risk to any ongoing investigation. What he does NOT want to say is that they are cooperating with law enforcement, if they actually are not. 

Come on back to this message a year from now after CGC puts out a press release declaring victory against the Mark's Jeweler Fooler in their lawsuit for injunctive relief and a permanent restraining order, in seizing all the perps's CGC books and settling the case out of court for an undisclosed amount, all of it wrapped tightly around an ironclad NDA with zero criminal charges against anyone. 

 

Unless he can be brought up on racketeering charges, I don't see the FBI ever getting involved. Probably never even know of its existence, as in "What comic scandal?"

[sledgehammer]

On 1/16/2024 at 9:24 PM, wiparker824 said:

On 1/16/2024 at 5:03 PM, tmac100 said:

As to why they didn't cross the AF 15 SS off the list, maybe they know that it is legitimate from comparing pictures - but know it is also still part of the scammer's personal collection because there is no recorded sale of it.  What better way to screw him than preventing him from ever selling it unless he contacts CGC to get it off the list...If it was sold off-market, then the new owners can still contact CGC to get it removed.

My point wasn’t whether it’s legitimate or not, it very much looks legitimate. My point was he said he hasn’t seen it yet. Why was the graded date updated to 1/5/24 if it wasn’t re-graded on 1/5/24? None of the other books that I’m aware of had their graded date updated and also still retained their cert. Consistency matters right now. 

Also have never bought the idea CGC put books on this list to “punish” the scammer. The punishment should be in the form of criminal charges first of all, second of all they have no idea if this person sold the book privately or not. And even if this book was put on the list for this reason it still doesn’t address my main point which is why was the graded date updated if it’s not in their possession and they’ve not regraded it?

I agree completely with tmac. I would be amazed if there are books on the list that weren't put on there to punish scamboy. I brought this up 11 days ago.

If he still owns the AF 15, he's now  ed. Not just because the value may have plummeted 20% in the market. If they don't like whoever currently owns that book, it is permanently marked, and they will certainly be watching for it to ever show up raw, with that silver Stan Lee "scarlet letter" on the back. It seems like a no-brainer to me.

I don't know how exhaustive your search of grade date changes was.

The second book I checked was the ASM 121 yellow, and it's not crossed off, with a grade date of January 12, 2024.

Here is the ASM  16 yellow, also. Same thing. 

https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/1146675001/

What part of their internal process this signifies, I have no clue, and it's not a top priority right now to figure it out.

Edited January 17 by sledgehammer

[grendel013]

On 1/17/2024 at 6:48 AM, sledgehammer said:

Here is the ASM  16 yellow, also. Same thing. 

https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/1146675001/

 

ASM 18

[GDN]

Prices were certainly down on most 181 and 194s yesterday at HA.  Although a 194 had sold a bit lower in November.  Hard to separate out the continued general decline in prices from any effect the scandal may be having on them.

[sledgehammer]

On 1/17/2024 at 7:12 AM, GDN said:

Prices were certainly down on most 181 and 194s yesterday at HA.  Although a 194 had sold a bit lower in November.  Hard to separate out the continued general decline in prices from any effect the scandal may be having on them.

The number of reported sales of 9.8 ASM 238s and 300s on GPA in the last 30 days are microscopic. Not literally, but close.

Edited January 17 by sledgehammer
number of

[namisgr]

On 1/15/2024 at 9:04 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

Hey all, so I needed to keep this under wraps until it happened, but this interview took place today, hopefully it helps answer some of the questions we've all had. Matt did a good job answering what he could

 

 

Thanks for getting the CGC President to answer questions and posting your interview.  Did Matt ever address whether CGC can detect cases that have been opened (so that inner wells may be switched in and out) and resealed?  If so, did CGC agree to share their detection method with the collecting and dealer communities, so that tampered comics that were not reholdered can be identified?  And if not, then how can CGC or anyone else, for that matter, be confident that the fraud is confined just to the fewer than 350 suspects on CGCs current list?

 

Edited January 17 by namisgr

[GDN]

On 1/17/2024 at 5:20 AM, sledgehammer said:

The number of reported sales of 9.8 ASM 238s and 300s on GPA in the last 30 days are microscopic. Not literally, but close.

ASM 300 in 9.6 sold for the lowest it has since ~July 2020.  $750.

[wiparker824]

On 1/17/2024 at 4:48 AM, sledgehammer said:

I agree completely with tmac. I would be amazed if there are books on the list that weren't put on there to punish scamboy. I brought this up 11 days ago.

If he still owns the AF 15, he's now  ed. Not just because the value may have plummeted 20% in the market. If they don't like whoever currently owns that book, it is permanently marked, and they will certainly be watching for it to ever show up raw, with that silver Stan Lee "scarlet letter" on the back. It seems like a no-brainer to me.

I don't know how exhaustive your search of grade date changes was.

The second book I checked was the ASM 121 yellow, and it's not crossed off, with a grade date of January 12, 2024.

Here is the ASM  16 yellow, also. Same thing. 

https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/1146675001/

What part of their internal process this signifies, I have no clue, and it's not a top priority right now to figure it out.

Very interesting they seem to have updated many of these in the last 24 hours, and all of the books that are crossed off and weren’t searchable are now all searchable thru the verify tool again with new grade dates, most with grade dates of 1/16/24 (yesterday) or 1/12/24. Of the 18 books crossed off only these 3 I’ve found have been crossed off and retain their graded old date: 0233579-004, 0800641-009, 1152116-001. But all of the books are searchable again. Not sure if this is temporary or if they’ve decided now to leave these books in the verify tool now with the new grade dates after they’ve reviewed them rather than removing them. But it does seem like they might have changed their plan which was:

“As impacted books are returned, the certification number will be struck through, indicating it is no longer valid and the book has been given a new certification number. Certification numbers that are no longer valid will not be searchable in the Verify CGC Certification database”

Everything is currently searchable in verify CGC at the moment. If this is the case I’d expect the ones that have updated graded dates like the AF 15 but aren’t crossed off will be shortly.

[EastEnd1]

On 1/17/2024 at 8:41 AM, namisgr said:

Thanks for getting the CGC President to answer questions and posting your interview.  Did Matt ever address whether CGC can detect cases that have been opened (so that inner wells may be switched in and out) and resealed?  If so, did CGC agree to share their detection method with the collecting and dealer communities, so that tampered comics that were not reholdered can be identified?  And if not, then how can CGC or anyone else, for that matter, be confident that the fraud is confined just to the fewer than 350 suspects on CGCs current list?

 

The only thing he says on that topic is that to date they haven't found any evidence of a straight open and reseal.  He seemed to imply that all the examples they've seen have involved a reholder situation.  There was no mention of whether the subject holders had identifiable defects or not.  

[DC#]

On 1/17/2024 at 5:12 AM, GDN said:

Prices were certainly down on most 181 and 194s yesterday at HA.  Although a 194 had sold a bit lower in November.  Hard to separate out the continued general decline in prices from any effect the scandal may be having on them.

I don’t think one could say that the scandal has definitively impacted anything. The 194 9.8 sold for 2650 which is right at the 90 day average and where the book has been bouncing around since mid-2023.   Depending on the book and platform - it has moved between 2500 and 3000 for six months.   
 

 

the 181  9.4 was 7% off the last sale which was in Oct so that too feels like a general marketplace decline.    The 7.5 was soft but the 6.0 was exactly flat to 90 day and 12 month average - it was also the 2nd highest sale across the last nine sold.

Given volume that books like ASM 300 and IH 181 trade at - and how likely it is that only a small subset of buyers even know about this topic - I personally don’t think is going to directly affect values that much    This board is probably not representative of the knowledge and expertise of the average collector/hobbyist 

 

Edited January 17 by DC#

[EastEnd1]

Here's a Dept of Justice press release from just last year involving a prosecution into a somewhat similar situation in the sports card industry.  This scam, which the DOJ decided to pursue, involved only $800,000 in sold fraudulent merchandise.  Also noteworthy is that the prosecution comes out of the Eastern District of NY which I believe includes Queens (ie, Forest Hills and Kew Gardens), Brooklyn and Long Island.  For those that have been victimized by the current comic scammer, the press release ends with the names of the District prosecutors that are handling this case and their contact information.  If you've been wondering how to get the authorities involved, contacting these two might be a good start.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/colorado-man-charged-sports-cards-fraud-scheme

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/82-year-old-colorado-man-charged-in-800000-sports-card-fraud-scheme/

Edited January 17 by EastEnd1

[BrashL]

On 1/17/2024 at 8:39 AM, EastEnd1 said:

The only thing he says on that topic is that to date they haven't found any evidence of a straight open and reseal.  He seemed to imply that all the examples they've seen have involved a reholder situation.  There was no mention of whether the subject holders had identifiable defects or not.  

First, It's not like the guy was sending already opened cases (I hope!) so opening and resealing has been confirmed by CGC. Secondly, we know these books were reholdered and there was no inside man (according to Matt) so it's also confirmed by CGC that they were opened and resealed in a way that CGC employees couldn't (or simply didn't) detect. So the only possible ambiguity is whether this guy also passed resealed slabs to buyers directly. I guess you have to decide that for yourself but why he would have any qualms about that lower-risk avenue I can't imagine. 

[WNY]

On 1/17/2024 at 9:51 AM, DC# said:

I don’t think one could say that the scandal has definitively impacted anything. The 194 9.8 sold for 2650 which is right at the 90 day average and where the book has been bouncing around since mid-2023.   Depending on the book and platform - it has moved between 2500 and 3000 for six months.   
 

 

the 181  9.4 was 7% off the last sale which was in Oct so that too feels like a general marketplace decline.    The 7.5 was soft but the 6.0 was exactly flat to 90 day and 12 month average - it was also the 2nd highest sale across the last nine sold.

Given volume that books like ASM 300 and IH 181 trade at - and how likely it is that only a small subset of buyers even know about this topic - I personally don’t think is going to directly affect values that much    This board is probably not representative of the knowledge and expertise of the average collector/hobbyist 

 

Love it. @DC# always coming in with fact-based responses. Bringing the receipts... 

[360flip]

On 1/17/2024 at 6:54 AM, BrashL said:

First, It's not like the guy was sending already opened cases (I hope!) so opening and resealing has been confirmed by CGC. Secondly, we know these books were reholdered and there was no inside man (according to Matt) so it's also confirmed by CGC that they were opened and resealed in a way that CGC employees couldn't (or simply didn't) detect. So the only possible ambiguity is whether this guy also passed resealed slabs to buyers directly. I guess you have to decide that for yourself but why he would have any qualms about that lower-risk avenue I can't imagine. 

I get the sense they are not being resealed after the swap. He's likely sending them back as damaged and because they are damaged, getting new slab and this happens via custom label avenue 

[BrashL]

On 1/17/2024 at 9:18 AM, 360flip said:

I get the sense they are not being resealed after the swap. He's likely sending them back as damaged and because they are damaged, getting new slab and this happens via custom label avenue 

It's been confirmed that anything they received for reholdering had to be still sealed or it would trigger a re-grade. If they were reholdering open cases that would be much, much worse. 

[wiparker824]

On 1/17/2024 at 8:26 AM, BrashL said:

It's been confirmed that anything they received for reholdering had to be still sealed or it would trigger a re-grade. If they were reholdering open cases that would be much, much worse. 

“Sealed” is not the word I’d use. I’ve personally sent books for reholder where a corner of the slab was chipped off and had them sent back without being regraded. This was the main reason people used to use this service before the custom labels came about. In the cases I’ve sent it wasn’t feasible to slide the book out given the minor corner damage wasn’t enough to pry out the book. So I believe reholdering without regrading was fair. But the question remains if the scammer was sending in books that appeared to have minor damage to the holder but actually had enough damage to slide the books out and CGC didn’t regrade them OR if the scammer was sending only fully sealed books (that they resealed themselves) back for reholders OR a combination of the two.

Edited January 17 by wiparker824

[Dr. Balls]

I was thinking this morning that CGC may be taking the approach that so many businesses do when someone is caught embezzling money: sweep it under, never report it, move on, take everything as a private loss. I think the fear of the public creating even further discussion than what we're having here might be a real factor in the public relations aspect CGC is going through.

To us, it may seem like they are not being transparent or dragging their feet - but to them, they may keeping this catastrophe from getting even bigger with widespread discussion - and to take it a step further, the more established news outlets might pick up on something like this, the more it becomes relevant in the search engines, resulting in scandal headlines overtaking basic search results for 'CGC Grading'.

[GDN]

On 1/17/2024 at 6:51 AM, DC# said:

I don’t think one could say that the scandal has definitively impacted anything. The 194 9.8 sold for 2650 which is right at the 90 day average and where the book has been bouncing around since mid-2023.   Depending on the book and platform - it has moved between 2500 and 3000 for six months.   
 

 

the 181  9.4 was 7% off the last sale which was in Oct so that too feels like a general marketplace decline.    The 7.5 was soft but the 6.0 was exactly flat to 90 day and 12 month average - it was also the 2nd highest sale across the last nine sold.

Given volume that books like ASM 300 and IH 181 trade at - and how likely it is that only a small subset of buyers even know about this topic - I personally don’t think is going to directly affect values that much    This board is probably not representative of the knowledge and expertise of the average collector/hobbyist 

 

Thanks for sharing that GPA data.  I don't subscribe to GPA anymore so was using GoCollect and most of those sales are strike-through best offers on GoCollect so I wasn't getting a fair picture of the recent sales.  It was interesting that a lot of the recent sales were on the 350 list.