ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[comicjel]

On 2/11/2024 at 1:31 PM, HighGrade said:

I'm not seeing any color touches at all, did you get the high res scan off heritage? I DL the 8.5, 9.0 and the 9.4 and compared all 3, I know the 8.5 wasn't touched, not even cleaned, and there is no differences, no color touches at all.

It's great to be on the lookout for swaps, but this is not any part of a swap and has nothing to do with the scam, those 3 sales are all legit, the book was cleaned and pressed twice and got the pedigree label after being recognized as the Windy City copy, I think it was talked about in another thread.

So I don't know what your seeing but just have a look at the "high resolution" images on heritage of the 8.5 that was not even cleaned, then the 9.4, no color touches, I mean if you were going to color touch, you would do it to that tiny bottom staple tear with a touch of blue, but nothing is colored touched? you can never be 100% from scans, but there is no color touches on that book, you know how many serious collectors have touched that book? 

Anyway this is not a swap, it's all known. Now is it a 9.4 after all the cleaning pressing? that could be up for debate, but not restoration. I would be more concerned with the heavy cleaning myself, but it's nice book, I personally like the pay copy better, I don't mind the writing though.

Agree - the Pay Copy with the provenance of the writing / signatures is a nicer copy to me!

[comicwiz]

On 2/11/2024 at 10:39 AM, comicjel said:

Is it definitely a tear seal on the back, and not just a successful press of a rough area?

Looks like it could just be a heavy clean and press.

You be the judge

[Chaos_in_Canada]

On 2/11/2024 at 11:11 AM, HighGrade said:

The Marvel Comics #1 Windy City Copy actually started out as an 8.5 in 2003, they were all sold without pedigree status, it was then bumped to 9.0, then it finally got a proper pedigree a few years ago (I don't think CGC even recognized it as a pedigree until later)

So yeah... They are both the windy city copies, and was boosted to a 9.4 after some obvious and serious major cleaning and pressing.

The tear on the back I think is a wrinkle pressed the life out of.

This kind of stuff has been happening for ever, in all collectibles, it is the very sad state of MONEY rules, but it's not technically a scam, and has nothing to do with swapping thank God.

[comicwiz]

OCT 14, 2005

NOV 21, 2019

[comicwiz]

Kept the 8.5 seperate, because they cranked the contrast on this way too high, which you can see from the yellowing on the edges and middle area. I can't say I've seen HA do this sort of thing before, very unusual. Nonetheless, you can see the same area, but harder to notice because the overclocked contrast subsumes the detail:

Edited February 11 by comicwiz

[AbsoluteCarnage]

The plastic comic embracing pieces added in on the newer slab could be blurring out what we're seeing in the newer slab as well making it harder to visualize the actual area of book as it's behind the extra plastic.

[MasterChief]

On 2/10/2024 at 11:29 PM, comicguy123 said:

These are the same book. 9.0 Universal became 9.4 Universal Windy City pedigree copy. Book has been color touched and half inch tear repaired on back cover. How can a book go from 9.0 Universal, get color touched and tear restored, and become 9.4 Universal  Pedigree?

The Windy City copy of Marvel Comics #1 was originally certified in 2002 as an 8.5 with Cream to Off-White pages and WITHOUT its pedigree designation. Thus far it has been graded as an 8.5, 9.0, and 9.4. It is currently authenticated with Off-White Pages.

The book was identified as being from the Windy City collection during a discussion in the Gold Forum in 2019 when I was able to piece together its provenance through historical research.

It was recalled from the pending Heritage auction by CGC, with the help of a boardie with connections to Jim Halperin and the collection’s founder Gary Colabuono, relabeled and assigned with its pedigree designation, then sent back to Heritage. It made the rounds for advertising purposes at a convention or two before auction commencement.

As far as restoration goes, it’s a stretch not to consider the book has been manipulated during its certification life. However, through visual analysis of all available imagery, and IMHO, the book does not appear to be color touched nor have tear seals applied. Possible, but not likely. It does appear to have been pressed (multiple times?) and cleaned.

Below is the visual graphic of the book’s provenance that I created and presented during the thread. It helped validate the copy’s chain of custody and ultimate designation as being from the collection.

Also below is a link to the original thread, the provenance time-line with references, and another link to the analysis of the impacted top staple and perceptive staple tears on the back cover.

 

Edited February 11 by MasterChief
typo

[AbsoluteCarnage]

One thing's for sure. If someone tries to press that book again, it might end up a smear on the press. Time to shut that down at 9.4.

[comicwiz]

On 2/11/2024 at 10:11 AM, comeaux said:

@comicwiz how do you think something like this happens? Surely with a book of this value, CGC would have to be pulling the strings? 

The problem we run into with exposé's of this nature is it begins to raise suspicion and questions about everything. There's a long, long history of unexplained activities, impressive bumps, and preferential grading. If we had to start going through it all now, it might start out as a history lesson that would quickly turn into retelling of horror stories forming around a massive bonfire, where we'd see the boards being used as as kindle, logs and firestarter by the time everything was said and done. 

@MasterChief would probably have a better handle on this book, contextually and from a historical point of view. If there's any boardie that would know, it's him. I know even if I did a deep dive, there's a long history of excusing this sort of thing with GA books. 

Edited February 11 by comicwiz

[AbsoluteCarnage]

Nice timeline of an awesome book's history @MasterChief  Good info!

[HighGrade]

On 2/11/2024 at 2:10 PM, MasterChief said:

The Windy City copy of Marvel Comics #1 was originally certified in 2002 as an 8.5 with Cream to Off-White pages and WITHOUT its pedigree designation. Thus far it has been graded as an 8.5, 9.0, and 9.4. It is currently authenticated with Off-White Pages.

The book was identified as being from the Windy City collection during a discussion in the Gold Forum in 2019 when I was able to piece together it’s provenance through historical research.

It was recalled from the pending Heritage auction by CGC, with the help of a boardie with connections to Jim Halperin and the collection’s founder Gary Colabuono, relabeled and assigned with its pedigree designation, then sent back to Heritage. It made the rounds for advertising purposes at a convention or two before auction commencement.

As far as restoration goes, it’s a stretch not to consider the book has been manipulated during its certification life. However, through visual analysis of all available imagery, and IMHO, the book does not appear to be color touched nor have tear seals applied. Possible, but not likely. It does appear to have been pressed (multiple times?) and cleaned.

Below is the visual graphic of the book’s provenance that I created and presented during the thread. It helped validate the copy’s chain of custody and ultimate designation as being from the collection.

Also below is a link to the original thread, the provenance time-line with references, and another link to the analysis of the impacted top staple and perceptive staple tears on the back cover.

 

Thanks for this!! I said some of this earlier but this fantastic! All books should have such recording of provenance, I love the pay copy, but this one is growing on me.

[comicwiz]

On 2/11/2024 at 2:10 PM, MasterChief said:

The Windy City copy of Marvel Comics #1 was originally certified in 2002 as an 8.5 with Cream to Off-White pages and WITHOUT its pedigree designation. Thus far it has been graded as an 8.5, 9.0, and 9.4. It is currently authenticated with Off-White Pages.

The book was identified as being from the Windy City collection during a discussion in the Gold Forum in 2019 when I was able to piece together it’s provenance through historical research.

It was recalled from the pending Heritage auction by CGC, with the help of a boardie with connections to Jim Halperin and the collection’s founder Gary Colabuono, relabeled and assigned with its pedigree designation, then sent back to Heritage. It made the rounds for advertising purposes at a convention or two before auction commencement.

As far as restoration goes, it’s a stretch not to consider the book has been manipulated during its certification life. However, through visual analysis of all available imagery, and IMHO, the book does not appear to be color touched nor have tear seals applied. Possible, but not likely. It does appear to have been pressed (multiple times?) and cleaned.

Below is the visual graphic of the book’s provenance that I created and presented during the thread. It helped validate the copy’s chain of custody and ultimate designation as being from the collection.

Also below is a link to the original thread, the provenance time-line with references, and another link to the analysis of the impacted top staple and perceptive staple tears on the back cover.

 

There you go, @MasterChief is your huckleberry 

[HighGrade]

Only thing is, now I kinda want a Marvel Comics #1... who wants to lend me a million to buy the 9.2 pay copy? or 100 of us could all pool our money and each get to have it for a month then in 9 years when we all had our month of ownership we sell it for 2 million!

Sounds good, no?

 

[Yorick]

On 2/11/2024 at 7:15 AM, Nick Furious said:

Even in the case of the most expensive book, I can't see how the owner would be better of financially by going through the courts rather than taking the compensation from CGC.  Lot's of expenses with no guarantees.  Might just end up losing twice.  

...if CGC compensates the collector.  It appears that CGC is holding the books and compensation until something else happens (trial?).

[jas1vans]

On 2/11/2024 at 9:15 AM, Nick Furious said:

Even in the case of the most expensive book, I can't see how the owner would be better of financially by going through the courts rather than taking the compensation from CGC.  Lot's of expenses with no guarantees.  Might just end up losing twice.  

Maybe they would want some transparency into how a grading company certifying valuable collectibles can be manipulated in such an efficient manner, hoping the exposure would provide some incentive to prevent future manipulation. A short term monetary setback to protect the value of a large collection of CGC graded books might be worth it to some.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've read, the trimming fiasco ended in a "Now don't you ever do this again."

[grendel013]

On 2/11/2024 at 2:13 PM, AbsoluteCarnage said:

One thing's for sure. If someone tries to press that book again, it might end up a smear on the press. Time to shut that down at 9.4.

Maybe one more press? But only if 9.9 pre-screen is available.

[justafan]

On 2/11/2024 at 1:57 PM, comicwiz said:

You be the judge

Those are either 2 different books or they did a tear seal/amazing press if it was just a wrinkle.

[justafan]

On 2/11/2024 at 1:59 PM, Chaos_in_Canada said:

The 8.5 and 9.0 appear to be the same copy, but that 9.4 appears to be a completely different book unless it was also micro trimmed at the top cover. Look at how the top cover edge is cutting off the MARVEL title.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 2/12/2024 at 12:38 PM, justafan said:

The 8.5 and 9.0 appear to be the same copy, but that 9.4 appears to be a completely different book unless it was also micro trimmed at the top cover. Look at how the top cover edge is cutting off the MARVEL title.

[MAR1979]

On 2/12/2024 at 12:38 PM, justafan said:

that 9.4 appears to be a completely different book unless it was also micro trimmed at the top cover.

'Twould not be the First, Hundredth or even Thousandth time.

Edited February 12 by MAR1979