ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[RockMyAmadeus]

[paqart]

On 4/27/2024 at 11:37 PM, RockMyAmadeus said:

Andrew. Allow me to break my "vow of silence", as it were, for a second, because you're taking some very aggressive shots at me, none of which are justified. When I first responded to your drawing, I had no idea that you had no idea how the mechanics of Gen 2 cases (which is what you have) worked, so I was reminding you...yes, with my "crude" drawing...that what you had drawn was physically impossible without A. popping another corner post, or B. (and infinitely less likely) warping and damaging the inner well and comic inside. Most people I know who spend $$$ on slabs have seen one or two cracked out, or have done it themselves, or at least watched a crackout video on the internet, to familiarize themselves with how the product they're putting so much trust in works. You don't need to crack a 4 or 5 figure slab to do that.

And now, you're angry...again...because you didn't understand what you were dealing with, and when someone gently corrected you, reminding you of the properties of the inner well (and not knowing you didn't know those properties)...with a picture, no less, which is about as non-confrontational as it gets...you immediately assumed bad faith, immediately assumed someone was "making a joke at your expense." But nothing could be further from the truth. I don't need to be "right" at the expense of others. No, I want everyone to be correct, so that everyone works from a position of knowledge.

I am a buyer AND seller of slabs. It is not only in my nature to be factually correct about the things that interest me, but it is in my business interests to make sure that misinformation about slabs doesn't proliferate. While everyone was praising your admittedly excellent drawing, they had missed the fact that there was a glaring error in it: the idea that a comic is not sealed into the inner well, and can simply be "tilted" and "pulled out" if one corner post is broken. That is not correct, for ANY generation of slab.

My goal wasn't to make you feel stupid. My goal was not to anger you. My goal was not to belittle you. My goal was not to "tweak" you. My goal isn't...and I cannot emphasize this enough...to "shoo anyone away", but to make sure everyone goes into comics with KNOWLEDGE, because knowledge is power. People who know what they're doing are much, much less likely to be scammed, taken advantage of, or, as in your case, assume they're being taken advantage of when they're not.

My goal was to bring you to understanding, and prevent MISunderstanding in others who, like you, don't know the mechanics of these cases, how they're designed, and how they function, and might look at your drawing and internalize it, thinking what you drew is possible. It is not. It never has been. And it's important that that idea was corrected.

So, just so you know: for Gen 2 (which is what your slab was) slabs, the inner well is nearly the entire length and width of the case, and it is divided into two parts: the bottom part where the comic is is completely sealed by a sonic weld on all four sides and cannot, outside of QC issues, be opened without cutting on the inside of that weld. The top part contains the label, and is lightly welded into the label on both sides, while the top is unsealed and open. 

I get it. You're a very educated and talented man. You spent a lot of time and energy getting to where you are. And no one likes to be corrected, especially in public. But there are a lot of people who know a lot more than you AND me about many subjects here. And there's nothing wrong with that. Instead of assuming bad faith, perhaps just asking "what do you mean by that?" would smooth out the rough spots that may not actually even exist. Everyone has something they know that others don't, and learning is a lifelong process.

I hope my explanation brings clarity, if not reconciliation.

Excellent answer, thanks. The pictures weren't working for me. Now that we're both talking, let me ask something you may think you've already answered, but isn't clear to me: I'm thinking of these cases now as a box wedged between two halves of the outer shell, secured by the four corner posts. I didn't examine the partially open CMA closely enough to see if the inner box was sealed on all six sides. It didn't occur to me that it might be, or I would have put on my higher powered pair of glasses to see it better. I also may have used something to prop the corner open while I photographed it (something I didn't want to do for fear that doing so might make it worse). One of my photos did catch the label slipping slightly over the "wall" between the label's and comic's portion of the inner box, but from what you're saying, it could do that and the comic still couldn't be removed because both are essentially in the same box together, even if there is a wall between them. The reason is that the wall doesn't extend and join with a "ceiling" which would have to be transparent, because I didn't see anything like that. Another shot, a close up of the yellowed edge of the comic, makes it look like the label could, if so motivated, move completely over the comic, or vice versa. I don't see a layer of plastic over them, apart from the hard case which easily lifted from the corner. To me, it looked like, when viewed through the open cover, I was looking at paper, not a plastic cover over the comic. Are you saying that isn't possible?

[grendel013]

On 4/27/2024 at 11:37 PM, RockMyAmadeus said:

Andrew. Allow me to break my "vow of silence", as it were, for a second, because you're taking some very aggressive shots at me, none of which are justified. When I first responded to your drawing, I had no idea that you had no idea how the mechanics of Gen 2 cases (which is what you have) worked, so I was reminding you...yes, with my "crude" drawing...that what you had drawn was physically impossible without A. popping another corner post, or B. (and infinitely less likely) warping and damaging the inner well and comic inside. Most people I know who spend $$$ on slabs have seen one or two cracked out, or have done it themselves, or at least watched a crackout video on the internet, to familiarize themselves with how the product they're putting so much trust in works. You don't need to crack a 4 or 5 figure slab to do that.

And now, you're angry...again...because you didn't understand what you were dealing with, and when someone gently corrected you, reminding you of the properties of the inner well (and not knowing you didn't know those properties)...with a picture, no less, which is about as non-confrontational as it gets...you immediately assumed bad faith, immediately assumed someone was "making a joke at your expense." But nothing could be further from the truth. I don't need to be "right" at the expense of others. No, I want everyone to be correct, so that everyone works from a position of knowledge.

I am a buyer AND seller of slabs. It is not only in my nature to want to be factually correct about the things that interest me, as a matter of personal pride, but it is in my business interests to make sure that misinformation about slabs doesn't proliferate. While everyone was praising your admittedly excellent drawing, they had missed the fact that there was a glaring error in it: the idea that a comic is not sealed into the inner well, and can simply be "tilted" and "pulled out" if one corner post is broken. That is not correct, for ANY generation of slab.

My goal wasn't to make you feel stupid. My goal was not to anger you. My goal was not to belittle you. My goal was not to "tweak" you. My meme about geometry was a very gentle poke about the physical impossibility of your drawing. My goal isn't...and I cannot emphasize this enough...to "shoo anyone away", but to make sure everyone goes into comics with KNOWLEDGE, because knowledge is power. People who know what they're doing are much, much less likely to be scammed, taken advantage of, or, as in your case, assume they're being taken advantage of when they're not.

My goal was to bring you to understanding, and prevent MISunderstanding in others who, like you, don't know the mechanics of these cases, how they're designed, and how they function, and might look at your drawing and internalize it, thinking what you drew is possible. It is not. It never has been. And it's important that that idea was corrected.

So, just so you know: for Gen 2 (which is what your slab was) slabs, the inner well is nearly the entire length and width of the case, and it is divided into two parts: the bottom part where the comic sits is completely sealed by a sonic weld on all four sides and cannot, outside of QC issues, be opened without cutting on the inside of that weld. The top part contains the label, and is lightly welded into the label on both sides, while the top is unsealed and open. 

I get it. You're a very educated and talented man. You spent a lot of time and energy getting to where you are. And no one likes to be corrected, especially in public. But there are a lot of people who know a lot more than you AND me about many subjects here. And there's nothing wrong with that. Instead of assuming bad faith, perhaps just asking "what do you mean by that?" would smooth out the rough spots that may not actually even exist. Everyone has something they know that others don't, and learning is a lifelong process.

I hope my explanation brings clarity, if not reconciliation.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 4/27/2024 at 8:55 PM, paqart said:

Are you saying that isn't possible?

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

[newshane]

On 4/27/2024 at 9:45 PM, paqart said:

No I haven't. Should I?

I mean, if you're arguing about the construction of a slab, then yes...you should enter the conversation with some basic knowledge. 

[newshane]

On 4/27/2024 at 10:57 PM, grendel013 said:

 

The new movies were great...but NOTHING in them topped this scene. 

[paqart]

On 4/28/2024 at 12:17 AM, newshane said:

I mean, if you're arguing about the construction of a slab, then yes...you should enter the conversation with some basic knowledge. 

So I have to know the answer to the question before asking? Is that right? Or do I have to know the answer to this question also before asking?

[newshane]

On 4/27/2024 at 11:23 PM, paqart said:

So I have to know the answer to the question before asking? Is that right? Or do I have to know the answer to this question also before asking?

No. But if you tell someone they are wrong, you better be sure that you are right. 

[Domo Arigato]

On 4/27/2024 at 10:37 PM, RockMyAmadeus said:

Andrew. Allow me to break my "vow of silence", as it were, for a second, because you're taking some very aggressive shots at me, none of which are justified. When I first responded to your drawing, I had no idea that you had no idea how the mechanics of Gen 2 cases (which is what you have) worked, so I was reminding you...yes, with my "crude" drawing...that what you had drawn was physically impossible without A. popping another corner post, or B. (and infinitely less likely) warping and damaging the inner well and comic inside. Most people I know who spend $$$ on slabs have seen one or two cracked out, or have done it themselves, or at least watched a crackout video on the internet, to familiarize themselves with how the product they're putting so much trust in works. You don't need to crack a 4 or 5 figure slab to do that.

And now, you're angry...again...because you didn't understand what you were dealing with, and when someone gently corrected you, reminding you of the properties of the inner well (and not knowing you didn't know those properties)...with a picture, no less, which is about as non-confrontational as it gets...you immediately assumed bad faith, immediately assumed someone was "making a joke at your expense." But nothing could be further from the truth. I don't need to be "right" at the expense of others. No, I want everyone to be correct, so that everyone works from a position of knowledge.

I am a buyer AND seller of slabs. It is not only in my nature to want to be factually correct about the things that interest me, as a matter of personal pride, but it is in my business interests to make sure that misinformation about slabs doesn't proliferate. While everyone was praising your admittedly excellent drawing, they had missed the fact that there was a glaring error in it: the idea that a comic is not sealed into the inner well, and can simply be "tilted" and "pulled out" if one corner post is broken. That is not correct, for ANY generation of slab.

My goal wasn't to make you feel stupid. My goal was not to anger you. My goal was not to belittle you. My goal was not to "tweak" you. My meme about geometry was a very gentle poke about the physical impossibility of your drawing. My goal isn't...and I cannot emphasize this enough...to "shoo anyone away", but to make sure everyone goes into comics with KNOWLEDGE, because knowledge is power. People who know what they're doing are much, much less likely to be scammed, taken advantage of, or, as in your case, assume they're being taken advantage of when they're not.

My goal was to bring you to understanding, and prevent MISunderstanding in others who, like you, don't know the mechanics of these cases, how they're designed, and how they function, and might look at your drawing and internalize it, thinking what you drew is possible. It is not. It never has been. And it's important that that idea was corrected.

So, just so you know: for Gen 2 (which is what your slab was) slabs, the inner well is nearly the entire length and width of the case, and it is divided into two parts: the bottom part where the comic sits is completely sealed by a sonic weld on all four sides and cannot, outside of QC issues, be opened without cutting on the inside of that weld. The top part contains the label, and is lightly welded into the label on both sides, while the top is unsealed and open. 

I get it. You're a very educated and talented man. You spent a lot of time and energy getting to where you are. And no one likes to be corrected, especially in public. But there are a lot of people who know a lot more than you AND me about many subjects here. And there's nothing wrong with that. Instead of assuming bad faith, perhaps just asking "what do you mean by that?" would smooth out the rough spots that may not actually even exist. Everyone has something they know that others don't, and learning is a lifelong process.

I hope my explanation brings clarity, if not reconciliation.

STFU! 

 

[paqart]

On 4/28/2024 at 12:26 AM, newshane said:

No. But if you tell someone they are wrong, you better be sure that you are right. 

So if someone tells me I don't know geometry because of a misunderstanding about the shape of a slab, he has to know geometry better? Look, RMA ruffled my feathers, but I'm cool now. maybe you don't need to take this any further. I wanted some info and got it, though it was difficult because of the way I described the problem. As a teacher, my position is that the reward for ignorance is education, not a demand to be less ignorant.

Edited April 28 by paqart

[newshane]

I can see CGC Mike wagging his finger at me, so I will stop. 

It's not my argument anyway. Just an objective take. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 4/27/2024 at 9:39 PM, Domo Arigato said:

STFU! 

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 4/27/2024 at 9:41 PM, paqart said:

So if someone tells me I don't know geometry because of a misunderstanding about the shape of a slab, he has to know geometry better? Look, RMA ruffled my feathers,

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

[paqart]

On 4/28/2024 at 12:48 AM, RockMyAmadeus said:

 

And succeeded brilliantly. Not sure why you use this video, because it makes it seem like you don't think you succeeded. What about my other question though? I'm  curious whether the inner portion of the slab is sealed on all six sides or not, meaning two layers of plastic between the comic and the outside of the slab.

[Domo Arigato]

On 4/27/2024 at 11:52 PM, paqart said:

I'm curious whether the inner portion of the slab is sealed on all six sides or not, meaning two layers of plastic between the comic and the outside of the slab.

Not trying to pile on, but just out of curiousity as well.  Since you've been a board member in here for almost 10 years, I would assume you have collected slabs for at least that long.  How have you previously never managed to see the older slabs with the wavy labels and the Title/Grade sticker on top?  

 

[paqart]

On 4/28/2024 at 1:02 AM, Domo Arigato said:

Not trying to pile on, but just out of curiousity as well.  Since you've been a board member in here for almost 10 years, I would assume you have collected slabs for at least that long.  How have you previously never managed to see the older slabs with the wavy labels and the Title/Grade sticker on top?  

 

Not that I think it matters, but I have not collected slabs for that long, and I joined CGC during a period when I wasn't collecting comics at all. I was trying to find information on a store I used to grade comics for called Recycle Books, and that led to a post by someone here. To see it, I had to become a member. To my surprise, the guy remembered me, though I was doing that work back in 1978. I had almost no interactions after that until I moved back to the US after finishing my PhD in 2018. At that time, someone at the town dump gave me a stack of comics as I was tossing out all the boxes from the move. The stack included a Giant-Size Man-Thing #4, with one of my all-time favorite Brunner covers. At that time, I may not have ever seen a slab, though I'm not sure about that, because I had been to a couple of Strip Beurs (comic book conventions) in the Netherlands. However, my interest in those shows was to let my daughter have a good time while I talked to some artists I knew, and largely ignored the comics, which were almost all European. The GSMT4 got me interested in comics again, so I started looking for SA/GA comics, mostly GA Barks. 

I bought my first slab, a New Teen Titans 2, in 2020 or so, after reading about newsstand editions. I felt like an insufficiently_thoughtful_person for buying it, but since then have accumulated over 100, though 75 of those were sent in by me. The ones I sent in were all moderns and were put into whatever slab was current in 2022. The remaining slabs are mostly for current newsstand editions of modern comics that almost certainly wouldn't have been worth putting in a slab until at least 2010. None of my GA comics are in slabs. The CMA 51 would have been the first if I had kept it. The reason is that I don't like to have slabbed comics that I actually want to read. Since I don't read the modern comics, I don't mind they are in a slab and it seems to help their value for trading later, though I haven't sold or traded any yet. I do like reading the Binder/Beck stories, so I wasn't that happy about getting the 51 in a slab, but all the other copies were in such bad shape I didn't want them anyway.

I'd be willing to buy certain GA comics in a slab, but not many. For instance low grade comics that have great covers but are in such awful shape that they can't be read anyway (like early issues of Action)

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 4/27/2024 at 8:46 PM, RockMyAmadeus said:

 

 

Well I didn't mean literally or current. Was more a poke at "lifetime accumulation.  "  which makes me wonder who the top 10 most cumulative point leaders would be. 

[Stefan_W]

On 4/28/2024 at 1:22 AM, paqart said:

I'd be willing to buy certain GA comics in a slab, but not many. For instance low grade comics that have great covers but are in such awful shape that they can't be read anyway (like early issues of Action)

Sorry to pull such a small part of your post out in isolation, but this really caught my attention since I am the opposite. I would consider buying GA as raw depending on the situation, but I much prefer to buy slabbed copies due to the amount of restoration you find in books like that. In the past I have bought GA raw locally that ended up being restored, and others through Heritage that ended up grading out 2 full points below the HA grading. Over time those expensive lessons led me to the conclusion that you really have to know exactly what you are getting, and with GA books the best way to do that is to buy graded copies. 

If it was a PC copy that I really wanted to read I would still prefer to buy a GA book slabbed and just crack it out if needed.