If slab says 9.8, does it matter what grade the actual comic actually is? What are we buying, anyway? The comic or the grade? 5 5

[Gambold Vintage]

I mean, think about it. Some scam artist gets a 9.8 IH181. They then crack the case and put a 9.4 in there, and sell it as a 9.8. 

That means until the case is cracked again and the comic regraded, it's a 9.8 as far as anyone knows. So does it matter? What do we buy, when we buy a slabbed comic?  We buy the grade, and the belief that the comic in the slab is accurately graded.  What do we sell, when we sell a slabbed comic? The same thing. 

And grading is not exactly a hard science. I'm sure many of us have been happily surprised or bitterly disappointed at grades we've received from our CGC submissions. I know I have.  Yet we still use the service and we still buy and sell slabs based on grades.

So if I get a 9.8 comic, I'm not going to worry if the comic inside REALLY IS a 9.8, whatever that means. I bought the grade.  And when the time comes, I'll sell the grade. If someone else wants to crack open a 9.8 and have it re-graded or verified that it really is a 9.8...go for it. 

The comparison would be purchasing an art forgery.  You bought a Picasso only to find out years later that it's a clever fake...if you or anyone else bothered finding out. But the comparison only goes so far.  A Picasso IS a Picasso. A 9.8 comic could well be a 9.6 in someone else's eyes. 

 

 

Edited January 1 by Gambold Vintage

[Chip Cataldo]

I only have raw books. To hell with numbers on paper encased in acrylic.

I love comics, not plastic...unless she's cute.

[godzilla43]

never mind

Edited January 1 by godzilla43

[Dr. Balls]

On 1/1/2024 at 10:13 AM, Gambold Vintage said:

I mean, think about it. Some scam artist gets a 9.8 IH181. They then crack the case and put a 9.4 in there, and sell it as a 9.8. 

That means until the case is cracked again and the comic regraded, it's a 9.8 as far as anyone knows. So does it matter? What do we buy, when we buy a slabbed comic?  We buy the grade, and the belief that the comic in the slab is accurately graded.  What do we sell, when we sell a slabbed comic? The same thing. 

And grading is not exactly a hard science. I'm sure many of us have been happily surprised or bitterly disappointed at grades we've received from our CGC submissions. I know I have.  Yet we still use the service and we still buy and sell slabs based on grades.

So if I get a 9.8 comic, I'm not going to worry if the comic inside REALLY IS a 9.8, whatever that means. I bought the grade.  And when the time comes, I'll sell the grade. If someone else wants to crack open a 9.8 and have it re-graded or verified that it really is a 9.8...go for it. 

The comparison would be purchasing an art forgery.  You bought a Picasso only to find out years later that it's a clever fake...if you or anyone else bothered finding out. But the comparison only goes so far.  A Picasso IS a Picasso. A 9.8 comic could well be a 9.6 in someone else's eyes. Or even a 9.4, if while getting it verified or re-graded one managed to bend the spine or cause color break. 

I can't say with certainty - but I think this all started out because someone was saying that the book in the 9.8 holder didn't look anywhere close to a 9.8.

You make good points, and this debacle undoubtedly hurt CGC as it has become a reality check where a lot of people are saying what you are saying: "is this graded book that I'm buying that big of a deal?" CGC doesn't have to worry that their business will end with a bang overnight, they have to worry if it just slowly eeks away with a whimper over the next few years.

[Gambold Vintage]

Yeah, I'm not trying to minimize this controversy, but it has got me thinking.  I personally buy pre-code horror, only in slabs.  Almost all of these are mid-grade so I'm not that concerned that I have a scammed slab. But what does it matter, really? I have a Haunt of Fear #14 that's graded a 6.5...if the seller had slipped a 5.5 or even a 5.0 in there could I tell the difference? Not really, and I doubt anyone who bought it from me could either. It says 6.5. Who is going to argue it?

This lead to my own sullen realization that I'm not really buying a comic...I'm buying a grade certificate. The comic itself could be in just about any condition, short of an obvious mess or a pristine treasure.  It made me think that maybe the good old days had it right: five conditions, G, VG, F, VF and NM.  It is pretty easy to tell the difference between those...then we got crazy in the hobby and now we have 25 or whatever grades and microscopic levels in the NM category. 

 

 

[D2]

Grading has existed for decades. 

As long as collectibles exist, concern on condition will exist. 

This applies to comics, coins, toys, signs, t-shirts, cars, shoes…

Although this is a temporary issue for CGC, it will be dealt with, remedied, and largely forgotten. 

The collectible market will continue and people will be concerned by condition.

So in conclusion, yes it does matter what the actual grade is, generally speaking. It might not matter to you. 

[Dr. Love]

Why take possession of the slab?  You can see an image of it elsewhere.  For that matter, why even need to see the image of the specific book?  You know what the book looks like in general.

Let's day trade the grade instead.  And as long as we're doing that, options are reasonable as well -  puts and calls -  the right to buy or sell a particular grade of a particular book at a particular price.

Just like acorns embody the possibility of the oak tree, once slabs were created all of the above became possible outcomes as well.

[Chip Cataldo]

On 1/1/2024 at 2:03 PM, Dr. Balls said:

I can't say with certainty - but I think this all started out because someone was saying that the book in the 9.8 holder didn't look anywhere close to a 9.8.

You make good points, and this debacle undoubtedly hurt CGC as it has become a reality check where a lot of people are saying what you are saying: "is this graded book that I'm buying that big of a deal?" CGC doesn't have to worry that their business will end with a bang overnight, they have to worry if it just slowly eeks away with a whimper over the next few years.

CGC isn't hurt by this at all. Their business is fine. This forum uproar and the YouTube "influencer" related outrage is but a blip as far as income that CGC would lose, as far as reach into the hobby. When it was last figured out, wasn't CGC getting something like 40,000 submissions a week? I doubt they'll even go down to 39,500 submissions a week because of this "debacle."

They'll continue to make huge amounts of money because the majority of submitters won't ever even find out about this issue, just like they never found out about micro-trimming, pay-for-grades, or whatever other "scam-du-jour" is happening at the moment.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/1/2024 at 12:13 PM, Gambold Vintage said:

I mean, think about it. Some scam artist gets a 9.8 IH181. They then crack the case and put a 9.4 in there, and sell it as a 9.8. 

That means until the case is cracked again and the comic regraded, it's a 9.8 as far as anyone knows. So does it matter? What do we buy, when we buy a slabbed comic?  We buy the grade, and the belief that the comic in the slab is accurately graded.  What do we sell, when we sell a slabbed comic? The same thing. 

And grading is not exactly a hard science. I'm sure many of us have been happily surprised or bitterly disappointed at grades we've received from our CGC submissions. I know I have.  Yet we still use the service and we still buy and sell slabs based on grades.

So if I get a 9.8 comic, I'm not going to worry if the comic inside REALLY IS a 9.8, whatever that means. I bought the grade.  And when the time comes, I'll sell the grade. If someone else wants to crack open a 9.8 and have it re-graded or verified that it really is a 9.8...go for it. 

The comparison would be purchasing an art forgery.  You bought a Picasso only to find out years later that it's a clever fake...if you or anyone else bothered finding out. But the comparison only goes so far.  A Picasso IS a Picasso. A 9.8 comic could well be a 9.6 in someone else's eyes. 

 

 

Edited January 1 by THE_BEYONDER

[JollyComics]

[bc]

"If slab says 9.8, does it matter what grade the actual comic actually is? What are we buying, anyway? The comic or the grade?"

Is this some kind of Schrodinger's Slab exercise?

-bc

[Gambold Vintage]

On 1/1/2024 at 11:55 AM, Chip Cataldo said:

I only have raw books. To hell with numbers on paper encased in acrylic.

I love comics, not plastic...unless she's cute.

Is it a weird question to ask why are you posting on a CGC forum if you hate slabbing comics?

[D2]

On 1/1/2024 at 6:05 PM, Gambold Vintage said:

Is it a weird question to ask why are you posting on a CGC forum if you hate slabbing comics?

A question you would be asking many of the regular lurkers on here…

[Chip Cataldo]

On 1/1/2024 at 6:05 PM, Gambold Vintage said:

Is it a weird question to ask why are you posting on a CGC forum if you hate slabbing comics?

This is a comic book forum. More images are posted of raw books than slabbed books, by far. I've sold lots of slabbed books in the past, I don't hate them. I will just always prefer raw books to collect and appreciate. Plus, regardless of why the process was created, NOW slabbed comics are all about greed. 

[JMcLean]

On 1/1/2024 at 5:13 PM, Gambold Vintage said:

 I bought the grade. 

 

 

I think that's the point of the scam... If you're getting scammed YOU DID NOT buy the grade... 

 

[KCOComics]

 

A few thoughts. 

1) intentionally deceiving people by swapping out lesser books in the wrapping paper of better books is despicable. We shouldn't rationalize or minimize this point. The person who did this and anyone else who attempts it should be arrested and should be responsible for compensating the people they took advantage of.  

2)  Buyers should do their diligence. Before CGC was big,   many dealers and fly by night sellers would call lots of books NM.  Buyers had to review the book and determine if they agreed with the grade. CGC did alot to take the debate out of it,  but CGC isn't unflappable. We've all seen overgraded and undergraded books. So if you are spending 5 figures on a comic,  you have a responsibility to make sure its exactly what you think it is. And if your buying the grade without executing that diligence, sometimes you'll be fine. But sometimes you won't. 

3)  A book can get a grade of 9.8, but look a heck of a lot worse than a 9.4.  They can be misaligned or have manufacturing defects.  My advice to everyone would be,  to learn the hobby,  identify what is important to you and perform diligence with every purchase. The grade shouldn't be the criteria. The grade can be part of the criteria.  It's OK to only want 9.8s. But you should factor in other considerations... like page color,  cover alignment, manufacturing defects, any fade or funky staple placement.

 

 

[grendel013]

I want... perfection.

[BigLeagueCHEW]

So your saying don’t buy the Larson Cap #1 CGC 9.8, just buy any ole copy of Cap 1, maybe it is restored, maybe not? Take a gamble?

I buy the book at its grade ‘cause that’s what I am looking for. The back story, the grade, and knowing it’s not restored.

[Dr. Balls]

On 1/1/2024 at 12:49 PM, D2 said:

Although this is a temporary issue for CGC, it will be dealt with, remedied, and largely forgotten. 

Normally, I would say that assumption is correct for most roadbumps a large corporation experiences.

However, I do not see CGC learning from this oversight, making the necessary sacrifices in order to remedy it and it will likely continue to happen because everyone there thinks it will just blow over. And, I don't blame CGC exclusively for that mentality - once you get that big in any company, it's not about the singular quality of your product anymore, now it's whether you can send out 100 mediocre slabs and only get 10 back. It's purely numbers, and while a lot of people think this isn't a big deal and will be forgotten - I disagree. This is a glaring example of another chink in the armor of CGC. It's not just because they've mishandled one of their most important products, it's that they simply continue to do so not really caring about the product they put out.

Edited January 2 by Dr. Balls

[Chip Cataldo]

On 1/1/2024 at 8:04 PM, Dr. Balls said:

...t's that they simply continue to do so not really caring about the product they put out.

...and this is why nothing will happen. CGC makes money hand over fist. This "scandal" won't stop that, so there's no incentive to do anything at all. 

Many months ago they were "caught" SELLING GRADES (twice) and nothing happened. 

Why would this be any different?