Giant Size X-Men #1 Just Graded 9.9. It Begins..... 7 7

[drotto]

Here is my 9.4, no grading notes availible.  I think a really nice copy.  When I bought it, the well known dealer that owned it was debating pressing and resubmitting it thinking it may be a 9.6. The two flaws I see are color loss/rub at the two staple locations. Without grader notes, I always thought this was a fair 9.4, because of those defects.  So if that is not a defect, this should be an easy 9.6 or higher after a press (it was graded 10 years ago, and has not been pressed).

Edited March 29 by drotto

[EastEnd1]

On 3/29/2024 at 1:27 PM, drotto said:

Here is my 9.4, no grading notes availible.  I think a really nice copy.  When I bought it, the well known dealer that owned it was debating pressing and resubmitting it thinking it may be a 9.6. The two flaws I see are color loss/rub at the two staple locations. Without grader notes, I always thought this was a fair 9.4, because of those defects.  So it that is not a defect, this should be an easy 9.6 or higher after a press (it was graded 10 years ago, and has not been pressed).

 

Nice book!  And yours has the added benefit of not having a spine mis-wrap (unlike the newly christened sole "9.9"!)...

 

 

 

[drotto]

On 3/29/2024 at 1:37 PM, EastEnd1 said:

 

Nice book!  And yours has the added benefit of not having a spine mis-wrap (unlike the newly christened sole "9.9"!)...

 

 

 

To me square bound spines always look kinda crappy.  They are never "square". But thanks, I also think me wrap is nicer then the 9.9.

[EastEnd1]

On 3/29/2024 at 2:46 PM, szav said:

I agree with most of the negativity, suspicion, conspiratorial comments etc. that people have posed so far.  I'll even take it a step further and say that allowing 9.9 pre-screens would be hugely detrimental to CGC.  Whatever short term money they might generate with such an opaque money grab, they would lose multiple times over from all the people they chase out of the hobby.  Charging for pre-screening for 9.9s is an implicit promise to award more 9.9s than they do now, and doing so would not just devalue current 9.9s, but it could heavily devalue the 9.8 market as well depending on how much more frequent they become.  It'd be a middle finger to everyone who spent money putting together 9.8 runs, or just 9.8s in general.  Very short sighted and stupid imo.

Well said... I agree entirely.  There's no point to a 9.9 pre-screen... based on the rarity of getting 9.9s with the countless 9.8 pre-screens that have already been submitted, the cost/benefit simply shouldn't be there, UNLESS you're moving the goal posts. 

[wombat]

Right. With the scarcity of 9.9s you should expect a failure rate of what? 99.9%? Unless................

[grendel013]

On 3/29/2024 at 1:27 PM, drotto said:

Here is my 9.4, no grading notes availible.  I think a really nice copy.  When I bought it, the well known dealer that owned it was debating pressing and resubmitting it thinking it may be a 9.6. The two flaws I see are color loss/rub at the two staple locations. Without grader notes, I always thought this was a fair 9.4, because of those defects.  So if that is not a defect, this should be an easy 9.6 or higher after a press (it was graded 10 years ago, and has not been pressed).

9.9

[Iconic1s]

My problem is not with any grade, it’s CGC’s public relations.  I wish they would just grade books and let nature take its course from there.

When they publicize something like this then in my mind, everything becomes suspect… I mean, when it comes right down to it shouldn't this book have simply went from QC to shipping and no one inside CGC would have even known to make a big deal out of it?

Just be the best at grading and shut up, then no one will have a reason to wonder what motivations are for this grade, this grade now, etc.  Also makes me sick whenever I see CGC ranting and raving about some record sale (especially when it’s at Heritage)… just so shady.  It’s almost as if they want to suck every penny possible out of people that enjoy this hobby  

[jjonahjameson11]

On 3/29/2024 at 3:01 PM, EastEnd1 said:

Well said... I agree entirely.  There's no point to a 9.9 pre-screen... based on the rarity of getting 9.9s with the countless 9.8 pre-screens that have already been submitted, the cost/benefit simply shouldn't be there, UNLESS you're moving the goal posts. 

Well, it’s been how many years since an ASM 300 has received a 9.9, yet tens of thousands of copies were submitted for grading during that period? 🤔

Edited March 29 by jjonahjameson11

[Axelrod]

The other thing that would address concerns would be if they would just SAY WHY THE BOOK GOT THE GRADE IT DID.  Like, notes for everything!  Why is this a 9.6 instead of a 9.8?  There's a reason, yes?  TELL US.  

How many thousands of submissions have people made where they scrutinized the books beforehand as closely as they could and found no flaws, only to receive a 9.6?  CGC has trained their audience to expect that if a book is perfect it gets a 9.8, so that's what people are happy with, but it seems likely to me that many of these 9.8 books ought to be higher if there was truly an objective standard being used.  

Instead we get the whole "grading is subjective" and "graders notes don't cover everything" that they do leaving it all cloaked in a veil of mystery.  Which seems entirely so no one can argue with them about the grade. 

I do not buy that it would be any more work at all for then to clearly document and notate the books - assuming they are strictly grading the books in the first place - as opposed to just giving quick once overs.  

[mattn792]

Forget the 9.9, the Quietly Exploiting Suckers sticker is what really sells it.

[lou_fine]

On 3/28/2024 at 10:48 AM, Sigur Ros said:

On 3/28/2024 at 12:07 AM, lou_fine said:

as Matt says there surely must be some hidden 9.9's in amongst all of those 9.8's.  

He didn't say that, did he?

That would mean either:

a)  He's admitting they didn't grade them correctly and/or held off giving deserved 9.9's

b)  They've lowered their standards now.

 

An except from a post in another thread here on the GA boards which I had just made since I am too lazy to rewrite my post from scratch:  

On 3/29/2024 at 11:02 PM, lou_fine said:

Too lazy to dig through the now nearly 500 pages of posts in the ASM 252 thread to find that interview, but the part I didn't quite understand was Matt leaving the impression that there must be some 9.9's hidden there in amongst the 9.8's due to the sheer volumes.  Kind of left me with the impression that 9.9's were not part of their standard normal grading process even though it has always been listed as one of the grades in their grading standard.  Especially when he mentions that a 9.9 pre-screen will require much more time and more work on the part of the grader, and I assume hence a much more costlier service which the submittor will now be paying for.  So, puzzled as I am not sure why we have to pay for a second much more costlier service for them to determine if your book actually qualifies for a 9.9 grade when I thought they were supposed to have been be doing this all along in the first place?  

 

[mattn792]

On 3/30/2024 at 2:38 AM, lou_fine said:

 

An except from a post in another thread here on the GA boards which I had just made since I am too lazy to rewrite my post from scratch:  

 

Imagine how long the 9.9 screening process will take when they get another batch of invisible comics in…

[SpineTic]

https://www.comicbookdaily.com/collecting-community/collecting-and-investing-tips/the-developing-cgc-9-9-market/

Article from 2018.

The Developing CGC 9.9 Market

I’ll get back to my regular Undervalued Spotlight posts next week. This weekend I spent a lot of time thinking about and discussing a relatively new and exciting segment of the market so I thought I’d put some thoughts down into words and share them.

It used to be CGC 9.9s were anomalies, random lottery winnings that brought the lucky submitter a nice influx of cash. I used to quickly rush any books that came back 9.9 to auctions wanting to cash in as quickly as possible, hopefully before the next CGC 9.9 made it onto the CGC Census.

Today I’m seeing the beginnings of what I predict will be a thriving CGC 9.9 marketplace.

It’s all about supply as in you need a certain amount before an actual market in the stuff can exist. A supply will lead to transactions and in turn these transaction results will rise or fall and be influenced by many of the same market factors that affect all other grades with an obvious extra weight being put on Scarcity of Grade.

Which books emerge as the foundation to this new market will be dependent on a numbers game, I’ve come up with a rough vision of this initial market that can obviously be totally wrong but it makes sense to me so I’ll present it.

CGC 9.9s are where the big boys will want to play, collectors and investors at the highest levels always target the best of the best so this will be their domain.

Scarcity models I see for Gold, Silver and Bronze Age comics seem to follow a formulaic pattern that has books becoming scarcer as the grades get higher, this happens at rates our brains can process and accept. Examples;

Batman #1 (Golden Age) has 1 CGC 9.2, 2 CGC 9.0s, 3 CGC 8.5s and 5 CGC 8.0s.

Tales of Suspense #39 (Silver Age) has 1 CGC 9.8, 4 CGC 9.6s and 20 CGC 9.4s.

Incredible Hulk #181 (Bronze Age) has 1 CGC 9.9, 114 CGC 9.8s and 272 9.6s.

Now to me these numbers make sense, the Golden Age top grade doesn’t have that many books below it because the 2^nd best and 3^rd best grades are scarce too.

With the Silver Age we see things open up a bit below the top grade so while the CGC 9.8 Tales of Suspense #39 may be off the market the 24 9.6/9.4s act as the top of the market. A market with only 24 copies floating around is a tight market and prices realized for CGC 9.4 Tales of Suspense #39s are impressive.

Jumping over to the Bronze Age we see things open up even more. Yes the lone CGC 9.9 Hulk #181 is off the market (as is the lone PGX 9.9) which leaves the 114 CGC 9.8s the absolute top of the market for Hulk #181. So for the big boys a CGC 9.8 White Page Hulk #181 is the best possible book they can own and demand still outstrips supply by a massive margin.

This above pattern/model basically falls apart once we his the Copper Age/Modern Age.

Let me show you the CGC numbers for New Mutants #98 as of this post;

New Mutants #98, there is 1 at CGC 10.0, 11 at CGC 9.9, 2,556 at CGC 9.8. For this book the current high end market is CGC 9.9, there are simply too many CGC 9.8s to make them an effective high end item meaning supply is controlling the price to below $1,000 – heck even I can afford one. So for deep pocketed fans of Deadpool and for high end investors in the comic market CGC 9.9 is the new high end standard for this book and that is something we could not have said a decade ago.

Worried about CGC 9.9s eventually not being scarce? Take heart, as of this post there have been 12,329 CGC Blue Labels graded meaning for every 1,120 books sent down 1 gets a CGC 9.9. There would have to be 25,000 graded copies out there for the CGC Census to reach 24 for New Mutants #98 at this rate.

Why did I pick 24 ? So I can compare New Mutants #98 to Tales of Suspense #39.

Quick, which is the bigger character/worldwide phenomenon? Deadpool or Iron Man? The answer might depend on the age of the person you ask but the point is that both characters are huge global franchises.

So why does one of the 24 best copies of the 1^st Iron Man get over $100,000 while one of the 11 best copies of Deadpool get only $11,000?

That was a question I asked a friend of mine when I was explaining all this back last fall. I think I explained a little too hard because he went out and bought a CGC 9.9 New Mutants #98 for $11,000 and change. He was one happy camper when that recent copy went for $23,000 plus.

Still, why the huge gulf in price? The characters might have the same level of popularity, Deadpool is twice as scarce yet only gets a fifth of the market price? Is it because New Mutant #98s are so plentiful? I think that is why but in the end it shouldn’t matter because for the very top of the market Scarcity of Grade should be the ultimate barometer. Does the CGC 3.5 price for Tales of Suspense #39 affect the market for the CGC 9.4s? Does the CGC 8.5 price for New Mutant #98 affect the market for the CGC 9.8s?

Maybe this is something the market needs time to grasp?

Anyway, back to the budding new CGC 9.9 market. Currently there are 10 CGC 9.9 copies of Amazing Spider-Man #300, enough I hope to start seeing some consistent sales.

Imagine a collector hunting down all the Spider-Man Black Costume/Early Venom books in CGC 9.9. I bet there are a few on it as we speak. Amazing Spider-Man #252, 258, 298, 299, 300, 315, 316, 317, Spectacular #90, Team-Up #141, Web of #18, Secret Wars #8… talk about an untouchable registry set!!

So how is this market going to develop? Spawn #1 may be a good barometer – there have been a lot of CGC 9.9s (65 of them which is a lot relatively speaking) for a while and they trade heavily – the pattern is that the prices have been trending up and have doubled over the past 2 years and I think it could do even better as more Copper Age/Modern Age key issues join the “I wanna own 9.9s” party, issues like X-Men #266, etc.

Anybody out there starting up a 9.9 collection? Anybody selling them as soon as they get them?

 

[grapeape]

On 3/27/2024 at 2:39 PM, BrashL said:

Metropolis Comics just announced it will be up for auction. I wonder if it will come with Grader's Notes?

Edit: Nope, gonna be hard to press it up to a 10.0 I guess.

Press away, but what to about the color break over the staple by Nightcrawlers hip? Its a pretty book, but I can't help feeling that if it was me, or one of you submitting, there's no way we sniff a 9.9. That's it, other than the top right corner, where I've seen a few other copies with sharper corners and lower grades. No h8, just having trouble trusting the professional grading services.

[Mr. Spider-Woman]

On 3/29/2024 at 5:08 PM, Iconic1s said:

My problem is not with any grade, it’s CGC’s public relations.  I wish they would just grade books and let nature take its course from there.

When they publicize something like this then in my mind, everything becomes suspect… I mean, when it comes right down to it shouldn't this book have simply went from QC to shipping and no one inside CGC would have even known to make a big deal out of it?

Just be the best at grading and shut up, then no one will have a reason to wonder what motivations are for this grade, this grade now, etc.  Also makes me sick whenever I see CGC ranting and raving about some record sale (especially when it’s at Heritage)… just so shady.  It’s almost as if they want to suck every penny possible out of people that enjoy this hobby  

I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've written. 

[WolverineX]

let the suckers buy the 9.9s

[Stefan_W]

Call me a sucker if you want, but I am proud to have this 9.9 in my PC. The grading is right, but the art work.... anyone know why Spidey's right foot is backwards? 

[mephistopheles]

On 3/28/2024 at 4:02 PM, BrashL said:

You forgot option D: Bronze and Modern will be graded on a different scale going forward and this is just the start. If that's the case then yes, that's a sea change.

I would argue they always have.

[mephistopheles]

On 3/28/2024 at 4:10 PM, namisgr said:

It looks stunning to me, with the edges and corners really standing out, along with clean cover.  But I've only seen scans of 9.8s, and images don't always show everything there is to see, so I don't have much to compare it to.

Honestly, I have seen better looking 9.4-9.6's. 

[mephistopheles]

On 3/28/2024 at 4:55 PM, COI said:

I saw an interview Matt Nelson did sometime in the last few months where he said that the decision to give a book like this a 9.9 is made by multiple people. As in, when the grader decides this is a potential 9.9, more people are called to weigh in. Based on that alone, you could see how a number of circumstances (like introducing a 9.9 prescreen, recently making an official video about 9.9s and 10s, and so on) might impinge on that decision process. 

Again, we don't know, but if you're a fan of simple explanations, it doesn't seem far fetched to bump a high profile book to 9.9 because it dovetails nicely with a new marketing initiative. That doesn't mean this is what actually happened, but I think it's much more plausible than you're making it out to be.

Matt walks by the grading floor "Let me see that GSX!" (flips through it) "Looks like a 9.9 to me." 

Do you dare disagree with the big dog as a mere peon?