DC Greytone Cover thread 3 3

[Aman619]

 

I think that the HOM 70, HOS 1 and 6, and MGA 18 all have some components that maintain a greytone effect. And some might even fit under the "partial" realm, but that just forces me to reassess my earlier definition of "partial." I think, to accommodate those 4 that Bill posted, I need to change what I said. So here goes:

 

I'm including ASW 109 and Secret Hearts 59 on the larger greytone/washtone list. If anybody disagrees, I'll wrassle them unti. . .

ahem, er. . .

I would like to recommend that we define greytone/washtone as follows:

"a comic with greytone/washtone elements that comprise a significant enough segment of the cover to catch your eye during a quick perusal." Not to be confused with "watercolor" (i.e. Flash 117) or "greytone effect" (i.e. WW 108), or partial greytone/partial washtone (i.e. HOM 70).

 

I don't want to rain on anybody's, least of all my buddy Bill's greytone parade; but this definition- honing and reassessment process is actually leading up to the opportunity for us to vote in the survey I was suggesting. But I don't mind being shot down on either the definitions or the survey model. I don't want to make this "Mick's Rules for Greytones" so I welcome your critiques, disagreements, or modifications.

 

It's my personal view that HOM 70 deserves a nod as having greytone elements, but those elements don't jump out at you the way they do on the Secret Hearts 59 or ASW 109 and I'd willingly submit the three of them among others to the survey I was recommending. So I hesitate to put HOM 70, HOS 1 and 6, and MGA 18 on the "unquestionable" greytone list, but would certainly recommend placement of them on the "survey" list along with WW 101, 108, and Flash 117.

I could also be persuaded to remove the Secret Hearts and ASW 109 from the "unquestionable" list for placement on the "survey" list.

Thoughts?

 

No worries about my graytone parade! I guess the question comes down to how you classify a graytone -- is it defined by the pastel/wash effect of the cover, or is it defined by the actual process the artist used to achieve the effect.

 

I would say that its how the cover is precieved by the beholder. A glance at the cover should answer the question. I would futher go on to say that a comic cover is either a wash-tone or not a washtone -- kind of like a woman being a little bit pregnant -- it either is or isnt!

thanks,

Bill

 

 

 

Mick is on the right track in spitting up these greytone effects. There are greytone covers that started out as "paintings" in various media. And also other covers that were colored using painterly techniques. IMO, greytone covers refer 90% of the time in the former category where the artist chose a media that would be reproduced as greys to have colors applied on top in the printing process.

 

But the rest were efforts SOLELY by the colorists and stripping departments (the folks who prepare printing plates from the supplied cover art and coloring guides. Usually the guides are watercolors right on top of stats or later xeroxes of the b/w cover art to illustrate what color goes where. My guess is that some of these tweeners were covers where the colorists did a pretty good job on the stats. So good that DC opted to USE the coloring on the final cover. (This could be done on an overlay as well so as not to break up the linework into dots along with the colors

 

anyway, these coloring techniques were widely used. Most of the early Marvels thru the 60s were extensivelty and creatively colored with blending and watercolor effects. heres on example. Just paint in some grey inside the lines and print colors on top. Neal Adams also used similar grey techniques to expand the DC pallete in the 70s after they had regressed into cheaper repeatably low effort coloring techniques.

 

 

And another one...Amazing Adventures 5:

 

 

 

[Inaflash]

A beautiful partial or full greytone?

 

Ken

 

[comick1]

It's a bit of an anomaly, Dan (re: HOM 70). Not least because the color palate is a combination of primaries and pastels, and it's that use of color that enhances the washtone effect. I'd give high points for this one's "washtone effect value" as well as the "watercolor" value on the proposed survey.

 

I edited in a couple of Shep's posts to the unquestionable list:

 

Adventures of Rex the Wonderdog 31, 38, 39, 42

All American Men of War 35, 81, 100, 110, 111

All Star Western 96, 102, 103, 109

Big Town 46

Brave and the Bold 18, 21, 22, 23, 44

Captain Storm 8

Challengers of the Unknown 11

Dark Mansion of Forbidden Love 3

Detective 239

GI Combat 44, 51, 69, 75-104, (!!!!!!!!!!!!!) 109, 113, 119

Green Lantern 8

Hopalong Cassidy 124

House of Mystery 92, 93, 198

House of Secrets 97, 112

Metal Men 37

My Greatest Adventure 17

Mystery in Space 36, 40, 45, 46, 55

Our Army at War 49, 57, 60, 124, 126

Our Fighting Forces 20, 71, 94

Peter Panda 20, 28, 31

Sea Devils 1-16 22, 24, 28-35

Secret Hearts 59

Showcase 3, 25, 27, 28, 29, 80

Star Spangled War Stories 45, 122,130

Strange Adventures 1, 80, 93, 110, 143, 150

Tales of the Unexpected 15, 17, 43

Tomahawk 66

Three Mouseketeers 6

Weird War 28

Weird Western 22

Western Comics 64, 69, 71, 81, 82

 

I haven't heard any objections to a more democratic survey, but I'll wait another day so we can fine-tune that with some more discussion. However, I'd like to start assembling the "survey list" (as opposed to the "unquestionable" list) and will include a few of Shep's posts in that one too.

 

Survey List:

 

Dale Evans 3

Flash 117

House of Mystery 70, 85

House of Secrets 1, 6

My Greatest Adventure 18, 20, 30

Mystery in Space 39

Our Army at War 56

Our Fighting Forces 26

Star Spangled War Stories 80

Wonder Woman 101, 108

 

Edited January 4, 2009 by Comick1

[AtlasFan]

Here are 2 more books that I would throw on the Survey List:

 

MGA #20

 

MGA #30

[JohnT]

Mick is on the right track in spitting up these greytone effects. There are greytone covers that started out as "paintings" in various media. And also other covers that were colored using painterly techniques. IMO, greytone covers refer 90% of the time in the former category where the artist chose a media that would be reproduced as greys to have colors applied on top in the printing process.

 

But the rest were efforts SOLELY by the colorists and stripping departments (the folks who prepare printing plates from the supplied cover art and coloring guides. Usually the guides are watercolors right on top of stats or later xeroxes of the b/w cover art to illustrate what color goes where. My guess is that some of these tweeners were covers where the colorists did a pretty good job on the stats. So good that DC opted to USE the coloring on the final cover. (This could be done on an overlay as well so as not to break up the linework into dots along with the colors

 

 

I went back through this thread an looked at a bunch of books, and I'm convinced that the "classic" greytones--the ones that we all clearly recognize as greytones--are unique in that the lines of the drawings are either absent altogether, or painted or chalked in. In other words, there are no crisp, sharp black lines present. It appears that there was a rough layout of the figures but the image is mostly done using paint, with the darks either brushed in with paint or maybe chalked in. The paint itself looks like thick watercolor (gouache, or opaque watercolor).

 

Many of the "partials" that are being brought up seem to be the result of someone using gouache or regular watercolor to creat effects in various parts of the drawing. But in these cases there is still a drawing with inked in black lines present in part or all of the image.

 

Here's a site that talks about gouache:

 

http://members.tripod.com/krobbins4art/id7.htm

[comick1]

Bill,

I went back and revised the "survey" list to include MGA 20 & 30.

 

John,

Thanks for that clarification. I think that helps bring some definition to the notion of "greytone effect" vs. "classic" (or unquestionable) greytone.

[Aman619]

Mick is on the right track in spitting up these greytone effects. There are greytone covers that started out as "paintings" in various media. And also other covers that were colored using painterly techniques. IMO, greytone covers refer 90% of the time in the former category where the artist chose a media that would be reproduced as greys to have colors applied on top in the printing process.

 

But the rest were efforts SOLELY by the colorists and stripping departments (the folks who prepare printing plates from the supplied cover art and coloring guides. Usually the guides are watercolors right on top of stats or later xeroxes of the b/w cover art to illustrate what color goes where. My guess is that some of these tweeners were covers where the colorists did a pretty good job on the stats. So good that DC opted to USE the coloring on the final cover. (This could be done on an overlay as well so as not to break up the linework into dots along with the colors

 

 

I went back through this thread an looked at a bunch of books, and I'm convinced that the "classic" greytones--the ones that we all clearly recognize as greytones--are unique in that the lines of the drawings are either absent altogether, or painted or chalked in. In other words, there are no crisp, sharp black lines present. It appears that there was a rough layout of the figures but the image is mostly done using paint, with the darks either brushed in with paint or maybe chalked in. The paint itself looks like thick watercolor (gouache, or opaque watercolor).

 

Many of the "partials" that are being brought up seem to be the result of someone using gouache or regular watercolor to creat effects in various parts of the drawing. But in these cases there is still a drawing with inked in black lines present in part or all of the image.

 

Here's a site that talks about gouache:

 

http://members.tripod.com/krobbins4art/id7.htm

 

yes. its the non-use of regulay pen + ink that separates greytones from normal comic production techniques. And after the choice of line work, are the many coloring technique choices used.

 

 

[BEAUMONTS]

OK, here's yet another updated list of "unquestionables."

 

Adventures of Rex the Wonderdog 31, 38, 39, 42

All American Men of War 35, 81, 100, 110, 111

All Star Western 96, 102, 103, 109

Big Town 46

Brave and the Bold 18, 21, 22, 23, 44

Captain Storm 8

Challengers of the Unknown 11

Dark Mansion of Forbidden Love 3

Detective 239

GI Combat 44, 51, 69, 75-104, (!!!!!!!!!!!!!) 109, 113, 119

Green Lantern 8

Hopalong Cassidy 124

House of Mystery 92, 93

House of Secrets 112

My Greatest Adventure 17

Mystery in Space 36, 40, 45, 46, 55

Our Army at War 49, 57, 60, 124, 126

Our Fighting Forces 20, 71, 94

Sea Devils 1-16 22, 24, 28-35

Secret Hearts 59

Showcase 3, 25, 27, 28, 29, 80

Star Spangled War Stories 45, 122,130

Strange Adventures 1, 80, 93, 110, 143, 150

Tales of the Unexpected 15, 17, 43

Tomahawk 65

Western Comics 64, 69, 71, 81, 82

 

I'm including partials on this list. I define partial as "greytone/washtone in a significant enough segment of the cover to catch your eye during a quick perusal." Not to be confused with "watercolor" (i.e. Flash 117) or "greytone effect" (i.e. WW 108)

 

More additions anybody?

-SECRETS OF SINISTER HOUSE #9

[thecollectron]

How about any of these?

[thecollectron]

[thecollectron]

[thecollectron]

[JohnT]

Those all look like greytones to me!

[adamstrange]

This cover appears to have been drawn as simple line art yet there is so much "painterly" work in the coloring that I think it is a classic example of a greytone.

[AtlasFan]

Intersting -- I have never seen any of these boys before. I am beginning to suspect that the greytone list presented here is only the tip of the iceberg!

[thecollectron]

This cover appears to have been drawn as simple line art yet there is so much "painterly" work in the coloring that I think it is a classic example of a greytone.

I think so too. It's hard to tell with the funny animal books because they used a lot of pastel colors, but I think the painterly work you mentioned sets these examples apart.

[JohnT]

This cover appears to have been drawn as simple line art yet there is so much "painterly" work in the coloring that I think it is a classic example of a greytone.

I think so too. It's hard to tell with the funny animal books because they used a lot of pastel colors, but I think the painterly work you mentioned sets these examples apart.

 

This one does have more black lines on it, but if you look closely many of the lines look "chalky", thick, and irregular, unlike most inked lines. Some lines looked inked, though, like on the chest at the bottom.

[AtlasFan]

I think this issue could be a contender for a wash-tone label!

 

[adamstrange]

I think this issue could be a contender for a wash-tone label!

 

If not, it would still be contender for one of the sexiest DC covers!

[RockMyAmadeus]

Pointy!