my last, last i tell you, attempted transaction with metropolis

[pennynike1]

i guess.

the question is, when they have a slabbed book NOT broken out that they think is OVERgraded, do they drop the price accordingly? no answers necessary--it is rhetorical.

 

I realize that your were asking a rhetorical, but here is a fine example. Check out the Fantastic Four 36 CGC 9.6 copy on their site. Was $2,000 last year. Pointed out to them at WizardWorld last year that the book did not appear to warrant such a high grade due to the pulled staple. Now the book is $2,100.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

i guess.

the question is, when they have a slabbed book NOT broken out that they think is OVERgraded, do they drop the price accordingly? no answers necessary--it is rhetorical.

 

I realize that your were asking a rhetorical, but here is a fine example. Check out the Fantastic Four 36 CGC 9.6 copy on their site. Was $2,000 last year. Pointed out to them at WizardWorld last year that the book did not appear to warrant such a high grade due to the pulled staple. Now the book is $2,100.

 

That actually used to be my book. Bought it from Blazingbob during the December 2003 sell-off of his FF collection. Think I sold it for a couple hundred more then what Metro has been asking for (gotta love selling at the market top ). I thought it was a 9.4 at best, and I really didn't take that top staple into account when I came to that conclusion.

 

This was one of the books that made me wonder how viable/sustainable the nutty prices SA Marvels were getting really were when considering the subjective nature of grading and the dangers of SCS.

[jkrk]

My response to this is simple. If there is a book out there that is worth thousands of dollars to begin with that I or anyone really is seriously interested in buying and it's a raw copy...

 

the #1 question on anyone's mind whether it's for sale from a major dealer or on consignment...... WHY IN GOD'S GREEN EARTH HAS THIS THING NOT BEEN SLABBED.

 

As was discussed many times before.........You are correct that .the overwhelmming probability is that the book doesn't grade as high (slabbed by CGC) as the seller wants/believes/etc.

Is CGC's grade correct or the sellers grade? The buyer pays their money and lives with the consequence.

 

Now on the flip side if I had millions of dollars and could play the guessing and hope games with these types of books maybe I would once in a while from reputable dealers, however I don't and most others do not either.

 

quote]

 

Our personalities as well as money plays a key role from who to buy from. I want to buy books with guarenteed CGC grades. Therefore, I only by CGC slabbed books. If I attempt to beat the sellers at their game and lose I feel like an *spoon* (for me it's a losers game). I know myself. Buying/selling is tough enough without feeling cheated after I receive a lower grade from CGC. For me it's about my personality and not spending the day calling myself stupid.

[pennynike1]

 

That actually used to be my book. Bought it from Blazingbob during the December 2003 sell-off of his FF collection. Think I sold it for a couple hundred more then what Metro has been asking for (gotta love selling at the market top ). I thought it was a 9.4 at best, and I really didn't take that top staple into account when I came to that conclusion.

 

This was one of the books that made me wonder how viable/sustainable the nutty prices SA Marvels were getting really were when considering the subjective nature of grading and the dangers of SCS.

 

The prices on SA books are really getting up there aren't they? I know sellers in general say that you can't argue with a grade of a book if it has been CGC'd, but the FF36 copy we are discussing seems to warrant an exception. I put the book at a VF/NM with that staple pull, perhaps a NM- at best. CGC was extremely generous with the grade on this copy. It is really too bad, because I would love to get my hands on a high grade copy of this issue. Perhaps it is the amount of money already invested that keeps this particular issue so high in price. The FF2 movie that just came out doesn't hurt either (although this is arguable in light of the fact that the film is getting hammered by critics).

[sacentaur]

Mistakenly overlooking resto is one thing; manipulating and intentionally misrepresenting books (in the name of unrelenting greed) is another.

 

STEVE

 

Steve;

 

Unfortunately, this now appears to be the business model for several of the larger comic dealers. When coupled with using CGC to laundered these books into the marketplace, an absolutely deadly combination for today's unsuspecting collector.

 

lou, I suppose we were lucky to pick up some of our nicer books in the old days before things really got out of control.

 

All we can do is convey the voice of experience - whether others choose to listen or not is up to them.

 

STEVE

[tth2]

Mistakenly overlooking resto is one thing; manipulating and intentionally misrepresenting books (in the name of unrelenting greed) is another.

 

STEVE

 

Steve;

 

Unfortunately, this now appears to be the business model for several of the larger comic dealers. When coupled with using CGC to laundered these books into the marketplace, an absolutely deadly combination for today's unsuspecting collector.

 

lou, I suppose we were lucky to pick up some of our nicer books in the old days before things really got out of control.

 

All we can do is convey the voice of experience - whether others chose to listen or not is up to them.

 

STEVE

While I don't think the situation today is perfect by any stretch of the imagination, particularly in terms of undisclosed pressing (where Lou seems to take a much harder line than most of his Old School brethren), I think it's SO much better than the old days.

 

Undisclosed trimming (along with other forms of restoration such as color touch and tear seals), which I think most collectors would agree is much worse than undisclosed pressing, still takes place, but not nearly as often as it did back then.

 

Many of the top dealers today, who may have gotten where they are today through tactics ranging from aggressive to unsavory, were there in the old days too. I don't think they get away with nearly as much as they used to. Crack-out-and-resub is a new game, of course, but is that any different from dealers in the old days who would consistently give books one grade when buying and give it a different grade when selling?

 

But first and foremost, the vastly greater information available through the internet, communal information sites such as these boards, and publicly available scans (here, on people's hard drives, and in the archives provided by the Evil Empire aka Heritage), has created much more transparency for the individual collector than existed in the past, which has helped to significantly level the playing field. As Steve says, however, just because a collector is armed with information doesn't mean that he'll take advantage of it. But at least it's there to be used if someone chooses to do so.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

 

That actually used to be my book. Bought it from Blazingbob during the December 2003 sell-off of his FF collection. Think I sold it for a couple hundred more then what Metro has been asking for (gotta love selling at the market top ). I thought it was a 9.4 at best, and I really didn't take that top staple into account when I came to that conclusion.

 

This was one of the books that made me wonder how viable/sustainable the nutty prices SA Marvels were getting really were when considering the subjective nature of grading and the dangers of SCS.

 

The prices on SA books are really getting up there aren't they? I know sellers in general say that you can't argue with a grade of a book if it has been CGC'd, but the FF36 copy we are discussing seems to warrant an exception. I put the book at a VF/NM with that staple pull, perhaps a NM- at best. CGC was extremely generous with the grade on this copy. It is really too bad, because I would love to get my hands on a high grade copy of this issue. Perhaps it is the amount of money already invested that keeps this particular issue so high in price. The FF2 movie that just came out doesn't hurt either (although this is arguable in light of the fact that the film is getting hammered by critics).

 

Funny thing is, about a year ago, I bought an old label CGC 9.0 copy of the same book from Blazingbob that I thought was SO much nicer then the 9.6 I spent $1,200 more on.

[Straw-Man]

Mistakenly overlooking resto is one thing; manipulating and intentionally misrepresenting books (in the name of unrelenting greed) is another.

 

STEVE

 

Steve;

 

Unfortunately, this now appears to be the business model for several of the larger comic dealers. When coupled with using CGC to laundered these books into the marketplace, an absolutely deadly combination for today's unsuspecting collector.

 

lou, I suppose we were lucky to pick up some of our nicer books in the old days before things really got out of control.

 

All we can do is convey the voice of experience - whether others chose to listen or not is up to them.

 

STEVE

While I don't think the situation today is perfect by any stretch of the imagination, particularly in terms of undisclosed pressing (where Lou seems to take a much harder line than most of his Old School brethren), I think it's SO much better than the old days.

 

Undisclosed trimming (along with other forms of restoration such as color touch and tear seals), which I think most collectors would agree is much worse than undisclosed pressing, still takes place, but not nearly as often as it did back then.

 

Many of the top dealers today, who may have gotten where they are today through tactics ranging from aggressive to unsavory, were there in the old days too. I don't think they get away with nearly as much as they used to. Crack-out-and-resub is a new game, of course, but is that any different from dealers in the old days who would consistently give books one grade when buying and give it a different grade when selling?

 

But first and foremost, the vastly greater information available through the internet, communal information sites such as these boards, and publicly available scans (here, on people's hard drives, and in the archives provided by the Evil Empire aka Heritage), has created much more transparency for the individual collector than existed in the past, which has helped to significantly level the playing field. As Steve says, however, just because a collector is armed with information doesn't mean that he'll take advantage of it. But at least it's there to be used if someone chooses to do so.

 

in agreement with everything but the 'evil empire' blast--excellent post. [see, no personal shot].

[Scrooge]

in agreement with everything but the 'evil empire' blast--excellent post. [see, no personal shot].

 

I'm fairly certain that the Evil Empire notation was made tongue firmly in cheek since if Heritage was an Evil Empire as mentioned many times on here, why would they continue to offer the extensive auctions archives they do. Tim was in fact mocking those that think Heritage is Evil. This makes you guys 100% in agreement

[G.A.tor]

in agreement with everything but the 'evil empire' blast--excellent post. [see, no personal shot].

 

I'm fairly certain that the Evil Empire notation was made tongue firmly in cheek since if Heritage was an Evil Empire as mentioned many times on here, why would they continue to offer the extensive auctions archives they do. Tim was in fact mocking those that think Heritage is Evil. This makes you guys 100% in agreement

[qualitycomix]

in agreement with everything but the 'evil empire' blast--excellent post. [see, no personal shot].

 

I'm fairly certain that the Evil Empire notation was made tongue firmly in cheek since if Heritage was an Evil Empire as mentioned many times on here, why would they continue to offer the extensive auctions archives they do. Tim was in fact mocking those that think Heritage is Evil. This makes you guys 100% in agreement

 

Heritage isn't evil. They just don't care about the marketplace. They'll dump 30 copies of a previously rare book on the marketplace. Torques up dealers plans because they paid top dollar to acquire previously mentioned rare book and now it's worth much less. They disregard achieving top dollar for books sometimes, because all they really care about is their commission. Other times, they'll buy books in their own auctions and then you'll see them relisted at a higher grade in the next auction or just relisted even though it just sold in the previous auction.

 

The auction archives help Heritage more than it hurts them.

1) It's good promo for them, because it shows what numbers they get for books. With the juice, the prices acheived can be high showing future consignors what they can sell their books for

2) It shows the depth of books they have sold. If you see 5 copies in the past year of AF #15 that have sold for good money on Heritage, wouldn't you consider them as a consignment source?

3) It brings people to their site. By having an archive, they bring eyeballs back to their site, and hopefully, they'll look at Heritage's current auctions to see what they have for sale.

 

All in all, the archives are decidedly not altruistic in any way. They do benefit the collector in many ways, but that's not the reason Heritage created the archives. It's a welcome byproduct of what they've done.

[Crowzilla]

Personally when spending thousands of dollars on books I wouldn't even consider buying raw books at all not just from Metropolis but rather any company.

 

the #1 question on anyone's mind whether it's for sale from a major dealer or on consignment...... WHY IN GOD'S GREEN EARTH HAS THIS THING NOT BEEN SLABBED.

 

A lot of long time collectors will be really happy to hear that - as it means you will stay out of their way for some really sweet things - like the beautiful Detroit Trolley books.

[showcase4]

Personally when spending thousands of dollars on books I wouldn't even consider buying raw books at all not just from Metropolis but rather any company.

 

the #1 question on anyone's mind whether it's for sale from a major dealer or on consignment...... WHY IN GOD'S GREEN EARTH HAS THIS THING NOT BEEN SLABBED.

 

A lot of long time collectors will be really happy to hear that - as it means you will stay out of their way for some really sweet things - like the beautiful Detroit Trolley books.

 

[sacentaur]

As a reminder, the Detroit Trolley books are checked by Susan C., and come with a certificate that they are unrestored

 

STEVE

[The Black Hand ®]

How long do you think before some of the Trolley books turn up improved and slabbed?

[showcase4]

How long do you think before some of the Trolley books turn up improved and slabbed?

 

...it has already happened...probably more than I know.

Pressed / cleaned / the "L" erased and all

[Silver Surfer]

However, sellers should be encouraged to CGC expensive books.

 

Then again, some sellers really like to crack CGC books... like the Marvel Mystery 17 (Larson copy), for example.

 

Bought in Heritage auction CGC 7.5 (Very Fine-), then appears unslabbed on Metropolis' website as a VF/NM (9.0)...with a very healthy price increase.

 

Imagine that.

 

STEVE

 

I had posted this one earlier in this thread, http://comics.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=806&Lot_No=3283&src=pr#Photo

http://www.metropoliscomics.com/bookSear...p;search=Search

So yes I can imagine that.

 

Good catch on that one, interesting that it was originally a 7.5 in the holder and now an 8.5, guess Metro doesn't agree with CGC on this one.

 

Haven't even looked at this book noted above yet but in recent months I find myself disagreeing with CGC's grading more and more (when it comes to GA books that is). There have been a number of examples where we grade books in this forum and when we find out what CGC grades it at we are all shaking our heads. My Human Torch #12 is a great example and there have been a few Marvel Mystery grades that I totally disagree with. Just an observation.

[G.A.tor]

How long do you think before some of the Trolley books turn up improved and slabbed?

well, if it makes you all feel any better, I have had 2 of my 3 DT purchases slabbed (as received) and both graded lower by CGC number wise (it is just a number-I like the way marnin grades!, and I really like the resto check, even though I knew these were resto free)....now, when I buy a raw DC or Timely book, I buy it for me, but I still slab them all for the resto check and the consistency of the slab...if I buy a book I know is already restored (like the AMAN 5, then it goes into a mylar, don't need to pay cgc to confirm that I already know it is restored!)...I don't slab my centaurs or my funny stuff's, either!, those I like to read again and again, and they are generally not available in reprint...

gator

[Silver Surfer]

As a reminder, the Detroit Trolley books are checked by Susan C., and come with a certificate that they are unrestored

 

STEVE

 

I think Susan is great but I did see one book where slight color touch was noted by CGC after Susan had either missed it or didn't feel like there was CT present (and I'm not talking about the MMC#5). Can't recall which DT book it was but will look at Marnin's site to see if I can figure it out.

[qualitycomix]

As a reminder, the Detroit Trolley books are checked by Susan C., and come with a certificate that they are unrestored

 

STEVE

 

I think Susan is great but I did see one book where slight color touch was noted by CGC after Susan had either missed it or didn't feel like there was CT present (and I'm not talking about the MMC#5). Can't recall which DT book it was but will look at Marnin's site to see if I can figure it out.

 

The Marvel Mystery #5 is the only DT book that has had any questions raised about it to the best of my knowledge.