Wayne-Tec

For a number of years now, I have started a Golden Age "hierarchy" thread to discuss where things stand after another year has passed. If you'd like to see my 2017 edition, you can find it HERE. I preface these posts by stating the obvious: there are no right or wrong answers. My list takes into account historical significance, nostalgia, desirability, how books were viewed in our hobby during different periods of time, current FMV, connections to both the past and present, interior content and exterior display (covers). You could create your list based on any criteria you'd like. I encourage discussion and for different collectors to share different points of view. I do not collect Archie comic books, my focus has always been superheroes, so I've kept my list DC, Timely and Fawcett exclusive. Slam Bradley is not a superhero but Batman might not be either and I couldn't leave Detective Comics #1 off of my list. Last year I ranked books by tier. This year, I'm going to be more specific. 

1. Action Comics #1

2. Detective Comics #27

3. Superman #1

4. Batman #1

5. Marvel Comics #1

6. Captain America Comics #1

7. Action Comics #7

8. Detective Comics #31

9. Whiz Comics #2 (#1)

10. All-American Comics #16

11. Action Comics #10

12. Detective Comics #29

13. All-Star Comics #8

14. Flash Comics #1

15. Detective Comics #33

16. Action Comics #13

17. More Fun Comics #52

18. Detective Comics #38

19. Sensation Comics #1

20. Action Comics #2

21. Detective Comics #28

22. Detective Comics #1

23. More Fun Comics #73

24. Detective Comics #35

25. All-Star Comics #3

26. Wonder Woman #1

27. Captain America Comics #3

28. Adventure Comics #40

29. Action Comics #23

30. Detective Comics #36

Due to trying to incorporate the numerous criteria posted above, the end result left me with mixed feelings. Obviously, Action Comics #7 is far less historically significant than Whiz Comics #2 (#1). It's not even close. But I placed weight, a lot of it, on the desirability of Superman's 2nd cover appearance. I used to be far more harsh on books with "classic covers" and forgettable interior content. But as the years have passed, I've warmed up to understanding the desirability of cover art. There is significance there, to being the 2nd time Superman was ever seen on display at the newsstand.

Some more thoughts:

*Marvel Comics #1 over Captain America Comics #1? Yeah, not so crazy. I've placed weight on Marvel Comics #1 once being the No. 1 book in our hobby. As much as I've enjoyed the Captain America movies, they are not masterpieces. Rarity is a big factor in my ranking A over B here.

*Detective Comics #31 is far more than just a classic cover (1st app. of the Baterang, 1st app. of Batman's first "super" villain: The Monk, 1st Bat-Plane, Bruce Wayne's 1st love interest: Julie Madison).

*1st appearances of next-tier superheroes like Green Lantern and The Flash are on the rise IMO. Wonder Woman is much more historically significant, but she's not on the cover of All-Star Comics #8 and there are more copies of All-Star Comics #8 than there are of All-American Comics #16 and Flash Comics #1, which also came earlier in DC's history. I can absolutely understand ranking All-Star Comics #8 higher.

*Robin is far more historically significant than The Spectre but there are far more copies of Detective Comics #38 than there are of More Fun Comics #52. Like the aforementioned example, I can absolutely understand ranking Detective Comics #38 higher.

That's my list, subject to change and open for discussion. What does yours look like?

If anyone knows who the new owner is of the coverless Jerry Robinson Tec #27, can you shoot me a PM?

I’m interested in buying a page.

Thanks! :)

25 minutes ago, bluechip said:

It had a centerfold when Jerry himself parted with it.   

Correct. It had the centerfold when slabbed as well but re-appeared in a new slab, sans the centerfold.

The coverless “Jerry Robinson” copy of Tec #27 was recently parted out. Page #21 sold on MCS. No centerfold to that copy.

I’m willing to pay for a slabbed non-Batman page. Shoot me a PM if anyone has any leads. 

On 7/13/2018 at 8:46 PM, VintageComics said:

Dude, sooooo sorry this hasn't turned up yet.

I know most people will keep their eyes peeled. If your Action #1 page shows up someone will spot it.

Thanks Roy.

I refuse to give up on this page. You know how passionate I am about these “holy grail” pages. That’s why I paid as much as I did in the first place, because Action #1 means everything to me.

Hi everyone,

It has been over 2 years and the search for my missing page continues. Has anyone seen this page surface anywhere?

Any wall pics?

On 4/15/2018 at 1:54 PM, Bomber-Bob said:

I'm not in the mood to go digging but this has been discussed many times, here on the Boards, over the years including recently. I think the conclusion was, as long as the slabs are stored in the proper environment, it's all good. The Bedrock report is something I never heard of before and very interesting. I have personally opened up many,probably 100 or more, some original old labels and have never noticed any problems except for the quality of grading. I focus especially on the page quality, which seems fine. Also, the mc paper always seems good with maybe the slightest of yellowing. I believe Joey recommended storing the books on their sides, spine down due to the long term effects of gravity on the spine, not a problem with the slab, per se. Personally, if I don't like the look of the book in a slab stored vertically, I will either lay them flat or store them sideways, spine down. CGC uses wedges a lot more now and I think this helps keep the book firmly in place.

Do you have any links to previous discussions about the long-term durability of slabs and the effects of slabbed books over time?

19 hours ago, jimbo_7071 said:

Sorry for the slow reply. Of the old-label slabs that show less bowing, two of the books in them are 64-page books. The third is not, but for some reason CGC used one of the thicker slabs normally used for 64-page books (maybe because the book exhibits a slight amount of spine roll).

Interesting. Have you seen any bowing or other issues in 2004-2015 era slabs?

Has anyone seen bowing or other issues in the 2004-2015 era slabs?

7 hours ago, jimbo_7071 said:

OK, here's the scoop.

I have ten old-label slabs, and all ten have some bowing.

Seven of the slabs are very thin, and the other three are very thick. The thick slabs exhibit significantly less bowing than the thin ones.

Of the seven thin slabs, the one with the least amount of bowing is also the newest (dated 6/30/2002). The one with the second least amount of bowing is the second newest (dated 8/6/2001). (Those two also haven't been in my collection all that long--maybe five years.) The one with the third least amount of bowing is--dig this--the third newest (dated 2/26/2001), but that one is only slightly less bowed than the remaining four, which are all similar (dated 7/18/2000, 9/23/2000, 1/22/2001, and 1/25/2001).

Incidentally, the thicker slabs are dated 9/14/2000, 2/3/2001, and 6/26/2002, and the two older ones have been in my collection since 2001.

I did find a couple of newer slabs that have some slight bowing; those particular  slabs are of the very thin variety as well.

The bowing may very well have been present since the slabs were made; it's possible that I simply didn't notice it. At any rate, the condition does seem to be worse in the older slabs, but only in the thin ones.

How big are the GA slabs that exhibit less bowing? Are they 64-page books?

I would love to know if this bowling has been present since 2000-2002 or if it has occurred over time. No way to really know that unless you had a reason to check 16-18 years ago.

Are the new CGC slabs made of different materials? They’re definitely sealed more securely. I don’t know if that would prevent bowing.

How is the condition of the books and inner wells of these older slabs?

21 minutes ago, jimbo_7071 said:

I've never stored my books standing up; I've always kept them in stacks, so that wouldn't be a factor with my books.

I've tried to keep my books away from temperature extremes; there have been short-term lapses, but nothing prolonged.

I can look at my old-label slabs to see how many have visible warpage.

Okay, cool. Sounds good.

5 hours ago, jimbo_7071 said:

That slab has the most bowing of any that I've noticed, but I've seen a slight amount in others, too.

Just to clarify, the slab is not opening; the dime is slid between the table top and the slab itself, not between the two halves of the slab.

That makes more sense.

But I think storage conditions and degree of handling are extremely important too. If a book has been handled freely for nearly 20 years, stored standing up, in an area with rising and falling temperatures, and/or was slightly warped to begin with (are you sure it wasn’t?), couldn’t all of the above explain why it looks as it does now?

We need a greater sample-size here. If we look at even 10-20 slabs from the 2001-2002 era, how many are warped?

5 hours ago, Sqeggs said:

I've heard @joeypost venture the opinion that slabs stored the way most of us do -- upright, rather than flat -- might cause some damage to the book over the long term.

I keep my slabs on their back.

3 hours ago, Sqeggs said:

Interesting.  First time I've heard that.  I have some slabs I submitted right at the beginning.  Maybe I should dig them out and see if anything going on with the inner well is visible through the slab.

Please do so. 

5 minutes ago, MrBedrock said:

I have cracked out a slew of original iteration slabs. The one thing that I have noticed is that the material used to make the inner well tends to yellow and sort of dry out or brittle over time. Some much worse than others. I think improper storage or exposure accelerates this. Fortunately the condition of the plastics in the inner well doesn't seem to affect the book directly to any noticeable degree.

Have these issues of yellow/brittle inner wells occurred only with 2001-2002 era slabs?

Have you noticed any similar issues with later iterations of the slab?

14 minutes ago, telerites said:

I wonder if too much is put into determining when to reslab.  Considering I have subbed books that I bought off the shelf in the mid to late 70s that sat in poly bags for most of their existence in a long comic box and they have come back as 9.8s with white pages.  Disclaimer - they were good candidates for subbing and many were unread and not all were 9.8 but none below 9.4 again with good PQ.  Seems like a slab would offer more protection than the poly bog and stuffed into a comic box along with 300 other books. 

I suspect the CGC slab absolutely offers superior protection. That’s one of the incentives of slabbing in the first place.

Question is: What are the long-term effects of sitting inside a slab? Do slabs that came after the 2001-2002 period “warp” or “bow”? Do acidic gases get stuck in the inner well and harm PQ over time? I’m not looking to raise questions if nobody has had any issues. 

But I’m very curious about comics still sitting in 2001-2002 era slabs. Do any other board members still have those books and if so, what is the condition of the slab/book now?

1 hour ago, jimbo_7071 said:

I wouldn't expect the tightness of the seal to be a factor one way or the other. The warpage probably has more to do with the material properties of the polymer that was used and with parameters of the injection-molding process.

(It's possible that the warpage occurred at the time of manufacture but that I simply failed to notice it; however, it seems like something I would have noticed.)

If there's less space in a particular slab (between the outer and inner wells) then warpage of the outer well has more potential to cause a spine tic. My old-label slabs vary greatly in thickness and also vary in the tightness of the book within the outer well.

Is this warpage only present in the 1 book you photographed?

I don’t own any 2001-2002 era slabs, but with older slabs (say 2004-2011), I’ve noticed inconsistency with how tight they are sealed. I’ve owned GA books that were so loose with the outer well, the sides seemed partially “open.”

The new 2017-2018 slabs are not only much stronger plastic, but they’re sealed much more tightly and securey. Do you think the harder plastic, over time, could warp to the point of slightly opening like it did in the photo you shared?

1 hour ago, jimbo_7071 said:

They are GA books. For the most part, the bowing is too slight to show up in a photo. However, I took this picture of the one with the most bowing. With the book lying flat, I was able to slide a dime under the center of the book. A penny wouldn't fit.

Interesting.

Is there any evidence to suggest that the new 2017 GA slabs would suffer from the same issues?

They are sealed much tighter.

58 minutes ago, jimbo_7071 said:

I have several old-label books that I've owned since around 2001. I haven't noticed any changes to the books, but a couple of the thinner slabs have started to bow slightly, so apparently the outer wells aren't perfectly dimensionally stable over time.

The only time I've ever noticed changes to books is when I kept some in Mylar sleeves open at the top; with those books, I noticed some darkening along the top edge (after ~20 years).

 

 

 

 

 

Do you have any pics of the bowed slabs?

Are they GA books?

Hey guys,

The new CGC slabs are stronger, more durable than previous incarnations. We were once told to submit books for reholdering every X-years to replace microchamber paper, am I correct that is no longer the case? Do we know why?

My main question though: If a GA book sits in a new CGC slab with minimal handling, what is the longest period of time it would be safe to remain there without getting reholdered?

Does anyone have original 2001-2002 era slabs? Have you noticed any changes in the book or does it look identical to when it was originally slabbed?

If you kept a GA book in a new CGC slab (say it was graded today), would we notice anything detrimental to the book if it sat for 20, 30, 40+ years?

Impressive!

32 minutes ago, lhcomics said:

No. It looked very rough since it was on the outside of the binder exposed to elements. 

I’m sure it’s still awesome.

I’d love to see it.

5 hours ago, lhcomics said:

My Bat 1 was missing back cover. 3 years ago I found a guy selling front and back cover on eBay. Both covers were glued to a notebook binder. Matt was able to remove both and dry clean them. I graded the front cover and it got blue label. I kept the back and it's with my Bat1 sitting in a mylar. No plans to attach it.

Before and after of back cover.

Any scans of the slabbed front cover?

On 12/18/2017 at 12:50 AM, Moondog said:

Here are original photos from 1978 taken by the guy who sold me the Windy City collection.  It's a 9.0 today that Heritage sold in 2005 for $161,000. 

A million dollar book?  I think so...

How much do you think this copy would go for today?