Wayne-Tec

9 hours ago, N e r V said:

I’m always torn by the debate of a Tec #27 ever beating Action #1 in pricing. I never owned an Action #1 but did Tec #27 simply because to me it’s a much cooler book to own. 

So part of me sees the logic that it could surpass the first Supes comic but then I think about how internationally famous Superman is and gawd that symbol and I think Batman has a tough hill to climb older fans or not. Superman really is a icon in and outside the hobby. 

So I’m going to stay neutral for now.

What’s more interesting to me today is the resurgence in Captain America and now Wonder Woman as 2 very old GA heroes are reclaiming new popularity internationally and in comic values. It’s starting to feel like the good times again circa 1940’s....

Do you have any photos or scans of your Tec #27?

I myself have been torn between Batman and Superman over the years. For a while, I would say I was more of a Siegel and Shuster Superman fan than I was a Kane and Finger Batman fan. I'm almost 30 and consider myself to be the exception to the rule for my generation. I rooted for Superman in Dawn of Justice. My avatar on the boards has been Superman for a long time. If I'm not 50/50, I'm a 51/49. Amongst the majority of people in my generation, it's Batman and it's not even close.

Yes, Superman's global appeal and status as an icon for so long adds a lot of luster to Action Comics #1. I just have a tough time believing it will remain No. 1 when collectors who don't even like the character rule the market.

4 hours ago, Chicago Boy said:

Christopher Reeves  influence will probably run out with the generation that Wayne-Tec described but for now AC 1 is king and will be for decades IMO

I think it comes down to what happens when collectors born between the 1930s-1970s age out of the hobby.

Those born when the first Christopher Reeve Superman film was relased turn 40 this December. I suspect there are more Action #1 owners older than 40 than there are Action #1 owners in their 20s and 30s. This will take some time, no reason to think it won’t.

But collectors born in the 1980s-present were exposed to a very different comic book world. Many from that generation don’t even like Superman. I don’t see any way that couldn’t have an impact and when the two books are already close as it is, change seems likely, albeit a little bit away.

1 hour ago, Crowzilla said:

If your low number is correct that means there are only 81 unslabbed copies out there (in collector hands). You think even 40 of those people are multi-millionaires (assuming one copy to a person, which we already know isn't true)? Most likely not.

Just as many of these copies were purchased 20-25-30 or more years ago, one should also think that maybe they put away a few grand in the market for grandkids at that time also. Why is it only an Action 1 that will put grandbaby through college? Is that the sum total of their investments? Most likely not.  Maybe they are selling that VF Amazing Fantasy #15 that they paid $500 bucks for 30 years ago to pay for school. Or that page of Ditko Spider-man art they bought for $50 cause it was so cool.

Collector mentality is tough to break. If you ate months of peanut butter and ramen noodles, while driving a 25-year old car, 30 years ago to buy that Action 1, you are probably going to figure out other ways to get things done financially without having to sell your Action 1. If you loved it that much when you bought it, there is a high chance it will be the last item in your collection to go.

What it took to acquire an Action #1 30 years ago is not what it takes to acquire one now. I don’t think there were a lot of Action #1 buyers living off of Ramen noodles and peanut butter, but who knows.

We seem to be in agreement, that most raw Action #1 owners are not multi-millionaires, correct? If that’s the case, I don’t think devoted old school collector mentality is enough to push away the incentive of FMV. That’s not to say that nobody is keeping their copies BTW. Obviously some are.

But how many? 81 different non-multi-millionaires matching your description and circumstance? 150? 200?

The fact that we’ve only seen 69 copies (40 Universal) slabbed in nearly two decades of slabbing is likely a testament to the actual rarity of the book. Those selling out for an extraordinary amount of money (ridiculous return on investment) are probably likely to outnumber the old school modest collectors who say no to that incentive and hold tight anyway. Just my 2-cents.

I’m going to use Action Comics #1 as an example, but the same logic can be applied to Detective Comics #27 and, to a lesser extent, Superman #1 and Batman #1.

A few things to consider:

Of the owners holding raw copies of Action Comics #1, what is their average level of wealth?

Are we looking at a 50/50 split between multi-millionaires and more modest collectors? Mostly multi-millionaires? Mostly more modest collectors? The answer, which may be impossible to know, is important.

As it pertains to the incentive to slab, we’ve discussed multiple factors, including protection for the book and desire to sell said book. Some have said: “Why would these old school collectors care 1) about slabbing comics which began decades after they first began collecting and 2) slabbing books that they do not have the desire to sell?

So let’s discuss those two points.

1) While slabbing goes against the desire by many to thumb through a comic book, it is much more likely to be viewed as a negative by those who are not worried about losing many, many thousands of dollars to grade degradation.

Thumbing through a 5.0 copy of a $500 book to the point where it becomes a 4.5 or 4.0 isn’t a very big deal. Turing a 5.0 Action #1 into a 4.5 or 4.0 would be a huge deal. As much as one enjoys thumbing through a comic book, is it so enjoyable that you’d risk a potential six-figure loss? I’m not buying it, though exceptions will always exist.

If you’re a multi-millionaire, such a risk and loss would be easier to bounce back from. But this brings us back to the question of: How wealthy are these raw Action #1 owners? Would someone making 75K, 100K, 150K annually risk an entire year’s salary to thumb through an Action #1? I’m not buying it, though exceptions will always exist.

2) Why slab a book if you have no intention of selling? Well, who is it that has no intention of selling? Multi-millionaires...sure. But I’m skeptical if the implication is that most of these raw Action #1 owners match that profile.

The more logical conclusion, IMO, is that many of the old school collectors loved their Action #1s, but not more than they loved the ability to put 2-3 grandchildren through college. Many of those old school collectors couldn’t resist the temptation any longer and FMV reached a point where the benefit of selling out-weighed the love of collecting.

69 CGC slabbed copies of Action #1 has been enough for us to see a handful come to the market in major auctions almost every year.

My estimate stands at 150-300 copies remaining in existence. If the reality is the lower end of my estimate (150), 54% of the remaining copies in existence remain raw. If the high end of my estimate is correct (300), 77% of all remaining copies in existence remain raw.

What is the likelihood that 77% of all Action #1 copies remain raw and/or sitting in private collections? That’s a stretch, so I think it’s fair to say 300 may be a high number.

5 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

But was 'Tec 27 really truly ever in top spot over Action #1?  

Well okay, Overstreet may have had him in top spot there for a few years back in the early 90's after the first Batman movie came out, but then what does old Bob know about the real marketplace anyways.  

“If” Tec #27 wasn’t the top book at that point, my reasoning for why it is likely to be 10-20 years from now still stands.

2 hours ago, Mr bla bla said:

One can conclude from this thread that the old discussion of Tec 27 taking the front seat is stone dead.

I’ve gone back and forth on this a lot over the years, but if you asked me today, I’d say that I expect Tec #27 to reclaim the top spot, eventually.

For so long as collectors born between the 1930s-1970s are active, big-time players in the market, Action #1 will remain the top book in the hobby. And why wouldn’t it? This is a nostalgic hobby and Superman was top-dog for a very long time. Collectors pay top dollar for the characters they love the most.

Collectors born during the 1980s-present, on average (no absolutes), had a very different experience, with Batman not only being the top dog, but claiming that spot during a time when these characters reached box office and merchandising heights never seen before. We could argue Spider-Man and Wolverine being more popular than Batman at times, but you get where I’m coming from.

Action #1 and Tec #27 are already close and that’s with the previous generation dominating the high end GA market. IMO, it’s only logical to assume that once those collectors age out of the marketplace, and the younger Batman-centric generation, many of whom are disinterested in Superman all together take over, Tec #27 will move past Action #1, by at least a slim margin.

1 hour ago, N e r V said:

If you’re a collector that has put together a collection for years and you are in a financially comfortable place in life and no pressing disaster in life forces you to part with your books and you still enjoy the collection why in the world would anyone want to slab it?

I grew up in collecting when most collectors were not high profile and simply bought and traded books without interacting with the comic business side other than to buy books. How many are left out there is anyone’s guess but I can say from my own personal knowledge that collections of great depth with GA books do still exist in the “wild” and are unlikely to show up on anyone’s “radar” unless the owners circumstances would vastly change.

My question is, how many non-millionaire old school collectors value their Action #1s more than they would the tuition of a grandchild’s college education, or more than the cost to own a house? Because that’s the point we are at with some of these books.

I do not believe that the majority of these Action #1 owners (private raw collections) are millionaires. I believe many are/were old school, passionate people who love our hobby and acquired these books before six-figures became entry-level. I also believe many of the people who fit that profile have let their Action #1s out of their collections and cashed in. We’ve seen the census numbers go up.

It would take an extreme level of discipline for a non-super wealthy collector to say no to that incentive and keep their Action #1 raw, in their own private collections. I’m sure it happens, just don’t know how many examples there are of that out there.

10 hours ago, rjpb said:

There's very little reason to slab unless you are planning to sell, or think you might soon and want the added liquidity slabbing presumably brings. Very few people are going to be comfortable sending six or seven figure books to Sarasota before there is an economic incentive to do so. It might be easier to assess insurance value, but that's about the only other reason. 

Still, I imagine many of those who own raw copies are disproportionately older, and it will be interesting to see if substantial numbers of new to market copies surface as those owners or their heirs decide to liquidate their collections. 

 

I’ve collected GA keys for years and my preference since the early/mid 2000s has been to have valuable books slabbed. Access to reprints is available, so I’m able to “read” these books without risking grade degradation.

Not a big concern for a $100 book. But if you owned, say, a 5.0 Action Comics #1, every time you “read” it, thumb through it, it’s not difficult to turn a 5.0 into a 4.5.

If you’re a multimillionaire, perhaps the consequence there are insignificant. But I don’t believe the majority of raw Action #1 owners are so wealthy that such things cease to matter. Perhaps I’m wrong there.

The financial incentive to slab/sell books like Action #1 has never been greater. Hence, we’ve seen 69 copies slabbed by CGC (40 of which are blue label).

I’m not saying that there isn’t truth to the talk of raw copies sitting in collections of older generation collectors who aren’t motivated to slab. What I am saying is, considering all of the above, I’m apprehensive about just how many such examples remain publicly undiscovered under that context.

16 hours ago, N e r V said:

1. Action Comics #1

2. Detective comics #27

3. Marvel comics #1 (oct. date)

4. Superman #1

5. Marvel comics #1 (nov. date)

6. Batman #1

7. Captain America #1

8. Detective comics #31

9. Action comics #10

10.  Pep comics #22

11.  Whiz comics #2

12. Flash comics #1

13. All Star #8

14. All American #16

15.  Action comics #10

16. Detective comics #29

17. Suspense comics #3

18. Fantastic comics #3

19. More fun #52

20. Detective comics #33

21. Action comics #13

22. Archie comics #1

23. Detective comics #38

24. Sensation comics #1 

25. Action Comics #2

26. Detective comics #28

27. All Star comics #3

28. Wonder Woman #1

29. Captain America #3

30. Marvel Mystery #9

 

So that’s my quickly assembled list for anyone else to poo poo on. Still heavy on DC as it probably should be but with more Marvel and others added to the mix. 

Nothing to knock here. I think it’s a very well thought out list. The idea of ranking OCT and NOV copies of Marvel #1 in different spots is very interesting to me.

14 hours ago, pemart1966 said:

Let's face it...slabbing has reduced the comic book "hobby" to something akin to coin collecting - there's a front, a back and a perimeter...

Agreed, but it doesn’t have to be that way. I read many of the GA stories via reprint long before I owned the actual books themselves. Access to reading these stories is readily available, but some collectors still spend four/five/six figures on books before investing the minutes into reading the stories.

14 minutes ago, Chicago Boy said:

I never really thought about the issue # 1 vs # 27 comparison until it was brought to my attention recently. So do you personally believe there are more than 50-100 copies of the “ Big 2 “ that exist ?  Anyone know the original print run on Tec 27 ?? Was it more than the 207k for AC 1 

I’m confident that there are more than 100 copies of each. How many more? That’s very tough to determine. My experience and conversations I’ve had with dealers and collectors over the years, I’d guess somewhere between 150-300 of each.

CGC Census (Universal in Parenthesis):

Action Comics #1

69 (40)

Detective Comics #27

67 (32)

Superman #1

143 (54)

Batman #1

252 (107)

The “Big-2” are awfully consistent. I do believe Tec #27 to be the slightly rarer book of the two due to Superman’s early popularity and the “No. 1” factor.

It’s always easier to estimate on the higher side (more than 50% unslabbed) because your opinion is covered when/if more surface. 

Something to keep in mind, there is all the incentive in the world to slab books for protection/display/resto check/resale and after nearly 20 years of slabbing, there are fewer blue label Action #1s and Tec #27s than there are states in the country.

13 hours ago, N e r V said:

If it was a top DC list I think it’d would work better for me with 26 of the 30 on that list from them and only 3 Marvel and 1 Fawcett book making it. Maybe I don’t get the process but out of 30 books I’m pretty sure I’d have more than 3 Marvels on any list and leaving Archie and some other publishers locked out seems a shame.

I think a historical list is possible with rankings and a popularity with collectors list probably goes hand in hand with a books value anyway. Otherwise I’m not seeing or understanding the rankings on the list with the exception of it being a somewhat random choice of personal favorites.

Not trying to be insulting either since I find the list interesting just not sure what it’s supposed to represent as to current collecting.

I’d love to see your list. As previously stated, there’s no right or wrong here. As for mine, it wasn’t random, nor was it a list of my “favorites.” Batman #1 is my all-time favorite comic book, but it’s not No. 1 on my list.

I’m in the process of brainstorming a revision that places greater emphasis on historical significance. Ranking Tec #31 ahead of Tec #33 wasn’t the best choice. But I do believe books like Tec #31 and Action #7 hold more significance than meets the eye. How to weigh that vs. the greatness of other books is a challenge.

My list could include more Timely’s, but DC had greater depth of roster. I’m also a DC/Timely-centric collector, so I left many other books off my personal list.

1 hour ago, TheSurgeon said:

I would would rank those books very high since we all know those stories. I would say most comic collectors know the stories in those books, compared to books like action 7, Tech 31, MF 73. I can recognize those covers, and I know MF 73 has 1st appearances, but I still don't know those stories. I have known the stories of the former comics since as long as I have collected.  I think the interior story content of AA 16, Flash 1, MF 52 and Whiz 2 elevates them to the highest tier of GA comics (along with of course Action 1, Det 27.) 

Generally speaking, those who spend thousands and thousands of dollars on books they haven’t even read via reprint still amazes me. It’s more common than you would think.

2 hours ago, pemart1966 said:

I don't know what the definition of "nostalgia" is in this case but I'd venture to say that virtually no one on these boards was alive, let alone bought any of these books off of the stands, when they came out.  

For me, it's my feelings associated with these books as I've experienced during my time as a collector. Nope, not old enough to have picked up them up off of the newsstand, but I've known about and admired many of these GA books long before I had the opportunity to own some of them.

5 hours ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

I think as the hobby continues to grow these will start to be different prices. Why there has been not much difference in prices is the majority of the hobby does not know there are different versions. Once it has become established there are different version than there will be different prices.

This will become a huge factor down the road. Kind of like with Walking Dead #1 where there is a black label and a white label first print of the issue. At first no one cared, but now there is a price difference.

I agree with most of the above, I'm just uncertain as to how much of a factor it will be. I'd prefer an OCT copy over a NOV copy, and would be willing to pay a premium. But that doesn't mean that I view the latter as a "reprint" or anything more than the same exact book printed on the same exact printing presses shortly after.

5 hours ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

I agree with this as GA Green Lantern and GA Flash are not the beloved versions that are loved by millions of fans now.

Ask anybody who the Flash or Green Lantern are and the vast majority would say

Barry Allen or Wally West for Flash. 

Hal Jordan or John Stewart for Green Lantern.

Heck, even Kyle Rayner would get more votes as the Green Lantern than Alan Scott.

I see AA #16 much down on the list going forward. 

While Scott and Garrick are not the beloved versions of Green Lantern and Flash, I think it's fair to point out how different Batman and Superman are now vs. how they appeared in Tec #27 and Action #1...and take note of the fact that we don't hold that against those books at all.

"A fitting ending for his kind" is very removed from the Batman we know today. If Batman had his "one rule" in the early GA books, I don't think that would add much value to them. So while we embrace and appreciate all of the similarities retained from the GA, we don't seem to mind the many changes either. That logic, to a degree, can be applied to AA #16 and Flash #1.

9 hours ago, jhm said:

Great list. Thank you for sharing!

GA collecting is such a fun hobby for me, because so many of us have different focal points.

I get such a charge out of the wide variety of cover art from the golden age. That's where I'm rooted in the hobby. So my hierarchy would look so different that I wouldn't want to diverge the thread. But I'll definitely be enjoying the conversation 

Any list, no matter how different, is welcome. 

7 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

I'd drop Action 7 and D 31 out of the top 10 unless the point of the list is heavily weighted to FMV (which you seem to weigh twice by also using the amorphous "desirability" as a criteria) as neither tick as many boxes in your criteria as books below them.  Heck, I'd rank D33 over D31, but both out of the top 10.  Action 10 and 13 are likewise far too highly ranked given your stated criteria, and should not be above books like AS 8, Flash 1, D 33, MF 52.  In short, I think you are giving short shrift to the following criteria you cite:

* historical significance

* nostalgia

* how books were viewed during different periods of time

* connections to both past and present

* interior content

Definitely some food for thought here. Very valid points. As I stated last year, books like Action #7 and Tec #31 have been elevated for about a full decade now, standing towards the top during the “Golden Age of FMV.” My process is far from scientific, but I do weigh desirability and FMV during the 2010s a bit more heavily than, say, the 1980s. It’s a difficult thing to quantify but your points regarding historical significance are strong.

I’m going to brainstorm a new list that shifts the focus more towards historical significance. That will change the list quite a bit.

15 minutes ago, pemart1966 said:

I might be tempted to split Marvel Comics #1 - the October date vs the November date with the October date in front.

If you could differentiate between copies of Action #1 printed on day-8 vs. day-23, would you value the latter significantly less?

Same comic, same paper stock, same ink, same printing press. The earlier the better I suppose, but not enough for there to be any more of a price adjustment than what we’ve seen already.

Just now, Primetime said:

I think the rarity has kept it in the top 5 all these years. Interesting because not many copies are offered publicly as compared to Batman 1 or Supe 1. That says something about the popularity of those two books. Rarity aside, perhaps All Star 8 will pass AA16 one day...

I believe that the popularity of Batman and Superman skews perception as it pertains to the rarity of their key books. Not to say there aren't more of them than some others. But the Batman/Superman books are the first to be offered for public sale. Others, featuring far less popular characters, are best offered at the right time. eBay and auction houses are not always the best gages for rarity.

Just now, ender said:

I might have More Fun 73 in the top 20 due to scarcity and three second tier first appearances, but this list top notch.  Its all open to good natured debate.  If you take the "super hero" tag off of it I think it gets a lot harder to do when you have to consider Walt Disney Comics, Pep, Suspense 3, etc.

Thanks. More Fun #73, like All-Star #8, would rank higher with an Aquaman/Green Arrow cover appearance. A coverless copy just sold for a ridiculous amount on eBay the other night. The desirability is definitely there. I just hope that it's not tied with the success/failure of the new Aquaman movie. Comic books are more than that.

Just now, Primetime said:

agreed. With all due respect to AA16, I'm happy to see it ranked in the back 10 as opposed to the top 5 GA in the OSPG. 

Top-5 is too high, bottom of the Top-10 feels right. The rarity of that book does make it very desirable IMO.

Just now, Primetime said:

This is a pretty good ranking list overall. How about Marvel Mystery 4 (1st Subby cover) or 9 (1st Superhero battle) ? 

Those were 2 books that were next in line. I can see ranking them higher.