The David Toth Collection 1 1

[LordRahl]

Like I said earlier w/ just the first 3 JLA's we were winning that set.

 

 

Seriously, Your JLA set was mind-blowing. Too bad you had to break it up (except for the ones I got). Still waiting for an explanation from CGC as to why no Ped designation, before I rip them a new one.

 

Top drawer Kudos to you & your Dad.

 

Rick

 

I'm not sure why everyone here thinks it's a slam dunk pedigree quality collection Most of the early stuff is either below 9.0 or not there, a few notable exceptions not withstanding. I guess it's part of the collection but too low grade to make the cut so it hasn't been slabbed. There's that lower grade thing again. There is also no Marvel representation, hence half or more of the Silver key books aren't in the collection at all. You can't make it a Pedigree bacause the Flash and JLA runs were all high grade. Don't get me wrong, this is a fantastic collection. I just don't see all of the uproar over why it wasn't called a pedigree.

[Aman619]

great collection! Do you have a sense from your dad why he thinks some titles were overall higher grades than others? In my experience, years after I bought my comics month by month, i saw that ttles I bought but never read tended to be in better condition: stacked and ignored.

 

Which were your dads favorite titles?

and are they in lowest average condition?

and his least faves the best?

[tth2]

Like I said earlier w/ just the first 3 JLA's we were winning that set.

 

 

Seriously, Your JLA set was mind-blowing. Too bad you had to break it up (except for the ones I got). Still waiting for an explanation from CGC as to why no Ped designation, before I rip them a new one.

 

Top drawer Kudos to you & your Dad.

 

Rick

 

I'm not sure why everyone here thinks it's a slam dunk pedigree quality collection Most of the early stuff is either below 9.0 or not there, a few notable exceptions not withstanding. I guess it's part of the collection but too low grade to make the cut so it hasn't been slabbed. There's that lower grade thing again. There is also no Marvel representation, hence half or more of the Silver key books aren't in the collection at all. You can't make it a Pedigree bacause the Flash and JLA runs were all high grade. Don't get me wrong, this is a fantastic collection. I just don't see all of the uproar over why it wasn't called a pedigree.

First, there ARE a lot of books from the pre-1963 period that ARE in 9.0 and above. I can`t overstate how exceptional that is. Most of the top SA pedigrees drop off significantly in quality once you start getting into 1962 and earlier. The fact that many of the books are top of Census, regardless of their grade, speaks volumes. The number of pre-1963 9.0 and higher books from this collection is much more unique than all the pretty mid- to late-1960s 9.6s and 9.8s that appear in recognized but undeserving pedigrees like Rocky Mountain, Boston, Winnipeg and Oakland.

 

Second, why should the absence of Marvels detract from the status of this collection? Would the emergence of a collection with lots of ultra-HG Marvels, but no DCs, be prevented from being recognized as a pedigree? I think not. In any event, what are the 2 biggest series of titles from DC? The answer is Batman and Superman, and the quality of the titles related to those 2 characters (Batman, Detective, Action, Superman, Jimmy Olsen, Lois Lane, Adventure) in this collection is unparalleled, particularly from the extremely difficult pre-1963 period. Then throw in the JLA and Flash runs, and it becomes a no-brainer.

 

Yes, it would`ve helped if there were super nice runs of Showcase and non-JLA Brave & Bold in there too, with 9.4 copies of Showcase #4 and #22, and a 9.4 copy of Flash #105, but what are you going to do? No other recognized pedigree has those books either. And no other recognized pedigree to my knowledge has a 9.2 B&B 28 or 9.4 JLA 1, only the Western Penn has a Flash #123, etc. etc.

[MstrTech]

I'm paraphrasing for sure but this is from the CGC website on Pedigrees.

 

Collections that are primarily from 1966 and after must have average grades of at least 9.4 to be considered a pedigree.

Comics from the Silver Age in general would have to be 9.2 and higher, and a collection of exclusive Silver Age material must have an average grade of 9.4.

Most pedigree collections consist of at least 1,000 comics

The collection must be original owner.

 

I agree w/ Tim considering the majority of the books are pre 66' and include the major character titles, I think we have all the criteria down in spades. And especially since some of the "low grade books" are still highest or tied for highest grade. 780 of the 1233 are graded 9.2 or above that’s a majority if you ask me. And there are still a lot of books from pre-60' that CGC has never seen, the Dells and Gold Keys for starters and a lot of those would have similar grades.

 

I guess the main question is not "if" it's just "why not"?

 

I can tell you for 100% though if my dad and I didn't think there were a shot at Pedigree status these books would not have been sold. (thumbs u

[MstrTech]

great collection! Do you have a sense from your dad why he thinks some titles were overall higher grades than others? In my experience, years after I bought my comics month by month, i saw that ttles I bought but never read tended to be in better condition: stacked and ignored.

 

Which were your dads favorite titles?

and are they in lowest average condition?

and his least faves the best?

 

No way to tell on why some were higher than others, as I've said he read them all. I guess some he just read more. Maybe that's why there will be a run of 9.4's w/ a 5.5 in the middle.

 

They were sorta all his favorites, that’s why he bought them. As a 12 yr. old w/ a meager allowance he only bought the ones w/ his favorite characters on the covers. Which is why he didn't have the big B&B and Showcase runs.

 

When Ed came to pick them up he commented that World's Finest should be "World's Slowest" because the books never moved when he was a dealer. To which my dad replied " Yeah but w/ that book I got 2 for 1 on my dime" because it had Supes and Batman.

 

Overall I think his favs. were GL, Flash, and JLA. But I'm sure he'll call and correct me if I'm wrong after he reads this.

 

[Flash105]

Wow, I have something in common with David Toth because those are my favorites as well. Did CGC know about the entire collection or think you first submissions from Heritage was it.

[Aman619]

Im sure that Heritage promoted the collection to CGC as a Pedigree, and to the Toths that they would give it a strenuous but not guaranteed effort to do so. CGC has been very stingy about Pedigree status for years, so this collection missing out just puts it on that list of near misses. Still great company to be in.

[tth2]

Im sure that Heritage promoted the collection to CGC as a Pedigree, and to the Toths that they would give it a strenuous but not guaranteed effort to do so. CGC has been very stingy about Pedigree status for years, so this collection missing out just puts it on that list of near misses. Still great company to be in.

This would be true if CGC hadn`t just given pedigree status to the Rocky Common Mountain collection. I didn`t comment when the Toth collection was first brought to market by CGC, because in fact they had been pretty tough about giving pedigree status over the last few years. But when they recognized a pedigree that as far as I can tell represented lots of ultra-HG books from an era lousy with ultra-HG books, I was puzzled and irritated.

[Aman619]

I think RMs a Pedigree worthy. A big deep HG collection of both DC and Marvel. Its only a bit shy on HG mega SA keys, but its got more than half of them. I think its hard to Pedigree a collection like Toth or Williamsport whose best books are runs of titles from scarce periods, but light on keys.

 

But timing is everything. Toth was close. But so were others that surfaced. RM were "one louder"... just enough to ring the CGC bell. finally.

[tth2]

I think RMs a Pedigree worthy. A big deep HG collection of both DC and Marvel. Its only a bit shy on HG mega SA keys, but its got more than half of them.

Where are you getting this information from?

[namisgr]

I think RMs a Pedigree worthy. A big deep HG collection of both DC and Marvel. Its only a bit shy on HG mega SA keys, but its got more than half of them.

Where are you getting this information from?

 

Posted by Collectors Society at 12/10/2008

CGC is now recognizing the pedigree Rocky Mountain. All comic books certified from this collection are eligible for the notation “Rocky Mountain” indicating that they were part of this original owner collection. Rocky Mountain, so named because it is from Colorado, contains over 5,000 comic books in high-grade runs of Marvel and DC titles from the 1960’s and up.

 

The comic books were stored meticulously for decades in a cool, dry basement, and have bold, newsstand-fresh colors and white or off-white to white pages. There are many Rocky Mountain examples that are the highest certified for their issue. Examples include Amazing Spider-Man #31, Fantastic Four #54, and X-men #39, all of which received CGC grades of 9.8.

 

Mark Haspel, CGC President and Primary Grader comments, “One of the unique things about the Rocky Mountain pedigree is that there are photographs of it in its original state, making it one of the most thoroughly documented pedigrees. It has long runs of Marvel and DC, and because of their high grades and their market acceptance, this collection certainly has special merit.”

_______________________________________________________________________________

 

It's a close call for me. While mid sixties Marvels are commonplace in 9.4, the RM collection has a slew of top census 9.6 and 9.8 copies, most with white pages. Perhaps only the PC pedigree can match it in this regard. As far as the keys, the RM collection is on much shakier ground. The real high grade in the collection seems to start at the beginning of '65. For instance, in the Avengers run coming up for sale, the #1 is only an 8.0 and the #4 a 9.0. In the FF run, the incredible ultra high-grade books started in the 30s, and for the Spideys in the 20s. The lack of early high grade keys makes it borderline for me.

 

[LordRahl]

Im sure that Heritage promoted the collection to CGC as a Pedigree, and to the Toths that they would give it a strenuous but not guaranteed effort to do so. CGC has been very stingy about Pedigree status for years, so this collection missing out just puts it on that list of near misses. Still great company to be in.

This would be true if CGC hadn`t just given pedigree status to the Rocky Common Mountain collection. I didn`t comment when the Toth collection was first brought to market by CGC, because in fact they had been pretty tough about giving pedigree status over the last few years. But when they recognized a pedigree that as far as I can tell represented lots of ultra-HG books from an era lousy with ultra-HG books, I was puzzled and irritated.

 

I think both collections are borderline Pedigree quality. The Toth collection is DC only with a lot of the earlier stuff, although it may be highest graded, is still below 9.0. There are some phenomenal runs in ultra high grade though. The RMs are light on the keys in terms of grade but ULTRA high grade from the mid 60s on. My original point was that the Toth collection is not a SLAM DUNK Pedigree, which is what a lot of the posters were saying. I can see it getting the Pedigree designation but I'm not surprised that it didn't either. To say that it is undoubtedly a Pedigree without hesitation is just over-exhuberance IMO. This of course comes from someone who does not collect SA DC and it seems that all the proponents of the Toth collection being Pedigreed are the DC collectors on the board.

[CAP Freak]

Im sure that Heritage promoted the collection to CGC as a Pedigree, and to the Toths that they would give it a strenuous but not guaranteed effort to do so. CGC has been very stingy about Pedigree status for years, so this collection missing out just puts it on that list of near misses. Still great company to be in.

This would be true if CGC hadn`t just given pedigree status to the Rocky Common Mountain collection. I didn`t comment when the Toth collection was first brought to market by CGC, because in fact they had been pretty tough about giving pedigree status over the last few years. But when they recognized a pedigree that as far as I can tell represented lots of ultra-HG books from an era lousy with ultra-HG books, I was puzzled and irritated.

 

I think both collections are borderline Pedigree quality. The Toth collection is DC only with a lot of the earlier stuff, although it may be highest graded, is still below 9.0. There are some phenomenal runs in ultra high grade though. The RMs are light on the keys in terms of grade but ULTRA high grade from the mid 60s on. My original point was that the Toth collection is not a SLAM DUNK Pedigree, which is what a lot of the posters were saying. I can see it getting the Pedigree designation but I'm not surprised that it didn't either. To say that it is undoubtedly a Pedigree without hesitation is just over-exhuberance IMO. This of course comes from someone who does not collect SA DC and it seems that all the proponents of the Toth collection being Pedigreed are the DC collectors on the board.

Many of the non SA DC collectors look at books like Superboy #54 in CGC 8.5 and don't realize how hard these books are to find in anything above VG.

[paperheart]

Im sure that Heritage promoted the collection to CGC as a Pedigree, and to the Toths that they would give it a strenuous but not guaranteed effort to do so. CGC has been very stingy about Pedigree status for years, so this collection missing out just puts it on that list of near misses. Still great company to be in.

This would be true if CGC hadn`t just given pedigree status to the Rocky Common Mountain collection. I didn`t comment when the Toth collection was first brought to market by CGC, because in fact they had been pretty tough about giving pedigree status over the last few years. But when they recognized a pedigree that as far as I can tell represented lots of ultra-HG books from an era lousy with ultra-HG books, I was puzzled and irritated.

 

I think both collections are borderline Pedigree quality. The Toth collection is DC only with a lot of the earlier stuff, although it may be highest graded, is still below 9.0. There are some phenomenal runs in ultra high grade though. The RMs are light on the keys in terms of grade but ULTRA high grade from the mid 60s on. My original point was that the Toth collection is not a SLAM DUNK Pedigree, which is what a lot of the posters were saying. I can see it getting the Pedigree designation but I'm not surprised that it didn't either. To say that it is undoubtedly a Pedigree without hesitation is just over-exhuberance IMO. This of course comes from someone who does not collect SA DC and it seems that all the proponents of the Toth collection being Pedigreed are the DC collectors on the board.

 

maybe that's due to: a)the DC collectors realizing how tough these books are to find in HG and b)marvel collectors not giving a rat's

[tth2]

I think RMs a Pedigree worthy. A big deep HG collection of both DC and Marvel. Its only a bit shy on HG mega SA keys, but its got more than half of them.

Where are you getting this information from?

 

Posted by Collectors Society at 12/10/2008

CGC is now recognizing the pedigree Rocky Mountain. All comic books certified from this collection are eligible for the notation “Rocky Mountain” indicating that they were part of this original owner collection. Rocky Mountain, so named because it is from Colorado, contains over 5,000 comic books in high-grade runs of Marvel and DC titles from the 1960’s and up.

 

The comic books were stored meticulously for decades in a cool, dry basement, and have bold, newsstand-fresh colors and white or off-white to white pages. There are many Rocky Mountain examples that are the highest certified for their issue. Examples include Amazing Spider-Man #31, Fantastic Four #54, and X-men #39, all of which received CGC grades of 9.8.

 

Mark Haspel, CGC President and Primary Grader comments, “One of the unique things about the Rocky Mountain pedigree is that there are photographs of it in its original state, making it one of the most thoroughly documented pedigrees. It has long runs of Marvel and DC, and because of their high grades and their market acceptance, this collection certainly has special merit.”

Thanks Bob, this is all I've seen too, so I was curious where Aman was getting his info about "a bit shy on HG mega SA keys, but its got more than half of them." Certainly if it turned out that there was a FF #1, AF #15, TOS #39, JIM #83, X-Men #1, Hulk #1, etc., and half of them turned out to be HG, my opinion of the Common Mountain pedigree might start changing.

 

It's a close call for me. While mid sixties Marvels are commonplace in 9.4, the RM collection has a slew of top census 9.6 and 9.8 copies, most with white pages. Perhaps only the PC pedigree can match it in this regard. As far as the keys, the RM collection is on much shakier ground. The real high grade in the collection seems to start at the beginning of '65. For instance, in the Avengers run coming up for sale, the #1 is only an 8.0 and the #4 a 9.0. In the FF run, the incredible ultra high-grade books started in the 30s, and for the Spideys in the 20s. The lack of early high grade keys makes it borderline for me.

I agree with you that it's a very nice collection, but I would say it's a bit short of the borderline. I just don't agree that a slew of 9.6s and 9.8s from 1965 and on could ever qualify a collection for pedigree status, even if it had a few keys in 8.0 or lower. Maybe I'm just too hardcore on this issue, but there are simply too many books in this grade, pedigree or non-pedigree, from this era. More importantly, would anyone be willing to bet that more 9.6 and 9.8 issues of ANY mid-1960s Marvel book won't emerge down the pike? Of course not, because virtually every nice SA collection that emerges has the same traits: mostly Marvel, starts in low- to mid-grade before 1964, and gets progressively higher grade from 1965 onwards.

 

On the other hand, I would be willing to lay down serious odds that more than a few Toth books will never be equalled, let alone surpassed.

[Aman619]

On the other hand, I would be willing to lay down serious odds that more than a few Toth books will never be equalled, let alone surpassed.

 

 

thats a key statement. IF, down the road, it turns out that the Toth books from the DC late 50s era are THE best books in most cases.... I think that collectors, leading the hobby, will know to seek out the Toth copy knowing ts the best, and THEN, the collection will get its due.

 

But, the problem still remains that to be the best in a "marginal area" just isnt the way to go for Pedigree status. Just doesnt ring the bel.

 

personally, I have noted my Williamsport and Toth copies in my database as something special, so Im not a hater, and choose to keep track of these copies. But I also understand CGCs position here, and in other cases we have all discussed.

 

Basically, the Pedigree issue is now upside down! WE the hobby were always the determiners of Pedigre status. And decades later CGC came along and notated what we all decided upon long ago. But now, CGC i sin place and has to make hard decisions what goes on the label BEFORE the hobby gets to live with a collection and try it on for Pedigree size.

 

Just one more quirk of our Brave New CGC World. Live and Learn, huh?

 

[Flash105]

Which personally for me that is a question I need help answering. Should I lay out big money for 9.0 DC books from 1956-1963. Books graded 9.0 are the highest grade in most cases. Will they be challenged and relegated over the next ten years by more collections.

 

If the Toth collection is a good indicator, then it appears 9.0 copies will be pretty safe.

[john72tex]

Which personally for me that is a question I need help answering. Should I lay out big money for 9.0 DC books from 1956-1963. Books graded 9.0 are the highest grade in most cases. Will they be challenged and relegated over the next ten years by more collections.

 

If the Toth collection is a good indicator, then it appears 9.0 copies will be pretty safe.

Funny you should mention that. I won a Batman 139 CGC 9.0 on a Comiclink auction a year or two ago. It was the highest graded and 1 of 2 copies with the Toth copy the other one. Since that time, there have been 2 copies graded higher, one 9.2 and one 9.4. I wonder how many more will be graded higher?

[MstrTech]

I'd like to thank posters both pro & con for your comments. While my dad and I knew that our collection was not a “slam dunk” we did think we had a pretty good chance. Especially given the fact that, unlike the grading criteria, they do seem to publish what will qualify your collection as a Pedigree. So we didn't make the cut, oh well, doesn't change the grades.

 

I am a bit biased on the subject, as I'm sure most of you would be, based on the fact that it is sentimental subject. I'm sure if any of you were to sell your OO collection you'd feel it “deserved a Pedigree”.

 

To those of you who do not feel that it meets the criteria I thank you for your interest in the collection and your entitled to your opinion. To those of you who do thank you, I hope you will enjoy these books as much as my dad did over all these years, and who knows w/ market acceptance and time maybe we'll get what we desire.

 

I do plan w/ any future sales to include a note about there pedigree and Heritage has decided to start calling it “The David N. Toth Pedigree” in future sales much as they did w/ the Slobodian Pedigree.

 

Thanks again.

 

Andrew

[Aman619]

thank YOU too! I just want to note the unintended irony of your second to last paragraph, that we will enjoy these books as much as my dad did over all these years,... ---

 

lets face it, if your dad had "enjoyed" them a whole lot for all these years, they'd be VGs not NMs!!

 

But I know what you are saying. ; )