PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[KONG]

Sounds like he got a better offer for it. Seller FIAL

[Anfield Fox]

Sounds like he got a better offer for it. Seller FIAL

 

Maybe. Maybe not. The day after i accepted his price he posted this:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=268694&Number=5944710#Post5944710

 

Anybody else think the grades would be bumped up if I had professionally dry cleaned and pressed?

[thehumantorch]

Thanks comix4fun and all the rest of you for arguing my points so i won't have to. I have a plane to catch in a few hours and i'm still not packed so i don't have much time to respond.

 

I've completed transactions with over 50 unique people on these boards over the last 7 years, sometimes on the forums but mostly through PM and i have never had one that went down the way nocutename suggests.

 

Honestly i wouldn't have minded if he backed out (notice my last PM) but he ignored my PM's and removed himself from the discussion. While i waited for a reply i missed out on another similar copy which was frustrating but not the end of the world. What made me decide to nominate him are his replies over the last 24 hours. How many times can one man change his story?

 

First he says he didn't know who i was. Then he said i was lying. Then he said he never saw my PM's. Then he said he didn't agree on anything. Then he said he won't complete the transaction "as a matter of principle". Then he said he would complete it "if he still had it" and no one else offered to pay as much as i did. Then he kept asking me to list the entire PM (which i did). Then he insults everyone who disagrees in the other thread. Then he comes into this thread and plays the "i didn't agree card again".

 

If that's the type of person some of you want on these forums then that's up to you. I just always knew this place to be better than that. I have no stake in this, i have lost no money, it's just friends in the UK forum said i would be doing the right thing by letting everyone else know what this guy is like.

 

You summed up how I was feeling quite neatly. I could forgive a new seller having second thoughts and backing out of a deal but this guy backed out of a deal, deleted PMs and didn't communicate his change of heart, and acted dumb when called on it - it may not be an act.

 

And his complaints that he's being treated unfairly by the boards really bothers me. This place is a group of people who rarely reach a consensus on any topic, including this one, but the majority are against him based on logic and merit rather than a witch hunt or easter egg hunt. Sir, don't blame us if you can't keep your word.and stand by your commitments.

[skypinkblu]

That would be smart and I would but I deleted the discussion because I did not think he wanted it! Same point I have been making!

 

Again if I still had the book I would have gladly sold it for $700, as pointed out before no one else would pay that price.

 

I must admit I'm slightly confused. In his want to buy thread, the seller states he no longer has the book. I wish he'd post here and explain that one. Did he sell it before Matt replied?

 

 

Sharon, for me there are a few things unclear about the exchange of communication and when the book was sold. For that matter when the other book was offered for sale. I have a hard time understanding how someone here for 6 years doesn't understand how removing one from a PM works.

 

I just wanted to know what happened to the book? I couldn't figure out if it was no longer available in that brief period of time between the offer and the acceptance...I didn't even get to ask why he'd remove himself from a PM instead of saying it was no longer available, if in fact, that was the case, that was my next question.

 

The seller removing himself from the PM without even the courtesy of an explanation, makes no sense...

 

I was waiting for the answer to my first question...still don't see it, then I was going to ask part two.

 

My guess is, from the posts I'm reading, that the seller is perhaps not the most considerate person to deal with.

 

 

Edited September 10, 2012 by skypinkblu

[Anfield Fox]

That would be smart and I would but I deleted the discussion because I did not think he wanted it! Same point I have been making!

 

Again if I still had the book I would have gladly sold it for $700, as pointed out before no one else would pay that price.

 

I must admit I'm slightly confused. In his want to buy thread, the seller states he no longer has the book. I wish he'd post here and explain that one. Did he sell it before Matt replied?

 

 

Sharon, for me there are a few things unclear about the exchange of communication and when the book was sold. For that matter when the other book was offered for sale. I have a hard time understanding how someone here for 6 years doesn't understand how removing one from a PM works.

 

I just wanted to know what happened to the book? I couldn't figure out if it was no longer available in that brief period of time between the offer and the acceptance...I didn't even get to ask why he'd remove himself from a PM instead of saying it was no longer available, if in fact, that was the case, that was my next question.

 

The seller removing himself from the PM without even the courtesy of an explanation, makes no sense...

 

I was waiting for the answer to my first question...still don't see it, then I was going to ask part two.

 

My guess is, from the posts I'm reading, that the seller is perhaps not the most considerate person to deal with.

 

 

Sharon, i have no idea what happend to the book. He's given two contradicting answers to that. Yesterday when asked by Bob he posted:

 

Just complete the agreed-upon transaction, get yourself off any probation discussion, and drop playing victim.

 

Based on principal I would rather stay on the list if this is the type of community the board has come to.

 

That suggests he still has it but doesn't want to complete the transaction. Then he posted the following which gives a different answer:

 

Again if I still had the book I would have gladly sold it for $700, as pointed out before no one else would pay that price.

[nocutename]

 

The seller has to agree to it else you have what happened here no sale or miscommunication. My opinions are never in the popular camp but I give them anyway. Just because the Buyer agrees doesn't make it a done deal as the seller still has acknowledge the deal.

.

 

 

It's ok to have your opinion but, factually, it's completely outside the bounds of accepted business practices and established law.

 

But most sellers aren't lawyers. I knew you would chime in with contract law. Once again, I am not going to debate you. This is a comic forum with first time sellers or sellers with little experience. These behind the door transactions need two communication. Once that stops the transaction stops. That is just common sense.

 

 

It's standard business practice. There's no market in the world that expects everyone to stand there nodding their acceptance back and forth repeatedly, like a pair of bobbleheads as they exchange money for goods.

 

I reject the notion that this is some sort of "short bus" version of real commerce. We are all adults. We offer, we accept, we pay, we ship. There aren't special rules just for this place. You want to do business? You do it the right way or you don't do it at all.

 

What you are proposing is a perpetual motion machine of people bowing before each other like Gaijinn businessmen on their first trip to Tokyo.

 

Face to face transaction: Seller - Yeah I'll sell it for x. Buyer - I guess I will take it then. Seller not liking the reply, states you know what it isn't for sale anymore. This doesn't happen ever? I see this happen at garage sales, LCSs and in small privately owned stores all the time. The seller has the final word to accept or reject, they own the item. Does it make it right, no.

 

You are trying to change your stance on this by adding that last sentence. Of course its not right, which is the entire argument.

 

No, I am not changing my stance. I still stand by that this is not a probation issue. Until, there are clear cut rules outlining proper protocol for private transactions, there needs to be clear communication between both parties. Once the sell cut off communication, the buyer should have just walked away. It isn't an official deal until both parties say OK.

[skypinkblu]

 

The seller has to agree to it else you have what happened here no sale or miscommunication. My opinions are never in the popular camp but I give them anyway. Just because the Buyer agrees doesn't make it a done deal as the seller still has acknowledge the deal.

.

 

 

It's ok to have your opinion but, factually, it's completely outside the bounds of accepted business practices and established law.

 

But most sellers aren't lawyers. I knew you would chime in with contract law. Once again, I am not going to debate you. This is a comic forum with first time sellers or sellers with little experience. These behind the door transactions need two communication. Once that stops the transaction stops. That is just common sense.

 

 

It's standard business practice. There's no market in the world that expects everyone to stand there nodding their acceptance back and forth repeatedly, like a pair of bobbleheads as they exchange money for goods.

 

I reject the notion that this is some sort of "short bus" version of real commerce. We are all adults. We offer, we accept, we pay, we ship. There aren't special rules just for this place. You want to do business? You do it the right way or you don't do it at all.

 

What you are proposing is a perpetual motion machine of people bowing before each other like Gaijinn businessmen on their first trip to Tokyo.

 

Face to face transaction: Seller - Yeah I'll sell it for x. Buyer - I guess I will take it then. Seller not liking the reply, states you know what it isn't for sale anymore. This doesn't happen ever? I see this happen at garage sales, LCSs and in small privately owned stores all the time. The seller has the final word to accept or reject, they own the item. Does it make it right, no.

 

You are trying to change your stance on this by adding that last sentence. Of course its not right, which is the entire argument.

 

No, I am not changing my stance. I still stand by that this is not a probation issue. Until, there are clear cut rules outlining proper protocol for private transactions, there needs to be clear communication between both parties. Once the sell cut off communication, the buyer should have just walked away. It isn't an official deal until both parties say OK.

 

Jeannine, the seller made an offer with a price and the buyer said OK.

 

Not sure what happened to the seller after, most of his answers are contradictory, but ..

 

THIS was the OFFER

 

Matt,

 

Thanks for the input. If you decide you want for $675 let me know. I would have to charge $25 to ship it registered mail so I can insure and track it all the way to you. I love the book but personally thought I would get a 9.4 in comparing it to other books.

 

Best Regards,

 

John

 

campbelljh3 PM 08/20/12 02:05 PM

 

Matt,

 

Are you interested in the Hulk book as well? We could work a package deal out if you like:)

 

I have more room to move on the Hulk but would only sell if someone wanted both. I have had the hulk stored away bagged/boarded so paid a lot less than what it is worth now.

 

My reply 08/20/12 03:02 PM

 

Thanks but i already have a nice Hulk 181.

And this was the acceptance

 

$700 is more than i wanted to pay but yeah lets do it. Please give me your paypal details.

 

Matt

 

I don't see a question about it being an offer and an acceptance...I'd still like to know where the book went. IF he was juggling two people and he sold it to someone else...or if he decided to have it "upgraded" . ...or if there was something else that happened (aliens took it, etc;) . If the seller does not want to respond in a clear and logical manner, then a decision should be made on the facts we do have.

Edited September 10, 2012 by skypinkblu

[nocutename]

Thanks comix4fun and all the rest of you for arguing my points so i won't have to. I have a plane to catch in a few hours and i'm still not packed so i don't have much time to respond.

 

I've completed transactions with over 50 unique people on these boards over the last 7 years, sometimes on the forums but mostly through PM and i have never had one that went down the way nocutename suggests.

 

Honestly i wouldn't have minded if he backed out (notice my last PM) but he ignored my PM's and removed himself from the discussion. While i waited for a reply i missed out on another similar copy which was frustrating but not the end of the world. What made me decide to nominate him are his replies over the last 24 hours. How many times can one man change his story?

 

I didn't mean to imply anything as to how your transaction went down. As you stated and posted, it was very clear that it was a volley back and forth, then he removed himself. I am still unclear if you PM'd him after he removed himself which if you did makes no sense to me. Is there something you are reading in my post to that makes you believe I am implying something?

 

I am also unclear as to when the second book was offer that you past up because for some reason you thought this deal was still active. Really why would you want to go through a transaction when someone rudely removes themselves from the very PM you are negotiating on? Furthermore, why would you not send a new PM to figure out if the deletion was an accident?

 

I don't mean to give you a hard time but sometimes common sense falls into place. What I read about with this transaction, I would have walked away and washed my hands of it. You are dealing with a new member. The way he has conducted himself over the past few days should tell you something.

 

Once again, I think we need rules for private transactions.

[nocutename]

Sharon and Comics4fun, don't take this the wrong way but I don't need a lesson in contract law or what constitutes an offer. I can read, I still don't agree. No one is suing over this book, are they?

 

Yes the seller could have done tons of things but didn't. Maybe I would feel different if the seller had the book for sale and wasn't solicited by the buyer. I am not sure. For me, it stinks the way it went down but I don't feel everything is that cut and dry either. I really believe and have mentioned this in the past, that we should have some rules about these type of deals. Then when a newbie comes on board, they know how to play fairly.

 

 

 

The seller has to agree to it else you have what happened here no sale or miscommunication. My opinions are never in the popular camp but I give them anyway. Just because the Buyer agrees doesn't make it a done deal as the seller still has acknowledge the deal.

.

 

 

It's ok to have your opinion but, factually, it's completely outside the bounds of accepted business practices and established law.

 

But most sellers aren't lawyers. I knew you would chime in with contract law. Once again, I am not going to debate you. This is a comic forum with first time sellers or sellers with little experience. These behind the door transactions need two communication. Once that stops the transaction stops. That is just common sense.

 

 

It's standard business practice. There's no market in the world that expects everyone to stand there nodding their acceptance back and forth repeatedly, like a pair of bobbleheads as they exchange money for goods.

 

I reject the notion that this is some sort of "short bus" version of real commerce. We are all adults. We offer, we accept, we pay, we ship. There aren't special rules just for this place. You want to do business? You do it the right way or you don't do it at all.

 

What you are proposing is a perpetual motion machine of people bowing before each other like Gaijinn businessmen on their first trip to Tokyo.

 

Face to face transaction: Seller - Yeah I'll sell it for x. Buyer - I guess I will take it then. Seller not liking the reply, states you know what it isn't for sale anymore. This doesn't happen ever? I see this happen at garage sales, LCSs and in small privately owned stores all the time. The seller has the final word to accept or reject, they own the item. Does it make it right, no.

 

You are trying to change your stance on this by adding that last sentence. Of course its not right, which is the entire argument.

 

No, I am not changing my stance. I still stand by that this is not a probation issue. Until, there are clear cut rules outlining proper protocol for private transactions, there needs to be clear communication between both parties. Once the sell cut off communication, the buyer should have just walked away. It isn't an official deal until both parties say OK.

 

Jeannine, the seller made an offer with a price and the buyer said OK.

 

Not sure what happened to the seller after, most of his answers are contradictory, but ..

 

THIS was the OFFER

 

Matt,

 

Thanks for the input. If you decide you want for $675 let me know. I would have to charge $25 to ship it registered mail so I can insure and track it all the way to you. I love the book but personally thought I would get a 9.4 in comparing it to other books.

 

Best Regards,

 

John

 

campbelljh3 PM 08/20/12 02:05 PM

 

Matt,

 

Are you interested in the Hulk book as well? We could work a package deal out if you like:)

 

I have more room to move on the Hulk but would only sell if someone wanted both. I have had the hulk stored away bagged/boarded so paid a lot less than what it is worth now.

 

My reply 08/20/12 03:02 PM

 

Thanks but i already have a nice Hulk 181.

And this was the acceptance

 

$700 is more than i wanted to pay but yeah lets do it. Please give me your paypal details.

 

Matt

 

I don't see a question about it being an offer and an acceptance...I'd still like to know where the book went. IF he was juggling two people and he sold it to someone else...or if he decided to have it "upgraded" . ...or if there was something else that happened (aliens took it, etc;) . If the seller does not want to respond in a clear and logical manner, then a decision should be made on the facts we do have.

[143ksk]

Everyone is so Judist around here and prosecutes someone without knowing all the facts and history.

 

Now I know why Mike Vick went through so much and took so long to regain his name even though we should give 2nd chances and not burn people at the stake!

 

 

I'm sorry, but I just can't let this pass...

 

You're seriously stating that Michael Vick got a raw deal? He pleaded guilty to felony dog fighting charges! There are fewer horrible things than people training dogs to kill each other for entertainment and profit.

 

It certainly doesn't help your case to compare yourself to him.

[comix4fun]

 

No, I am not changing my stance. I still stand by that this is not a probation issue. Until, there are clear cut rules outlining proper protocol for private transactions, there needs to be clear communication between both parties. Once the sell cut off communication, the buyer should have just walked away. It isn't an official deal until both parties say OK.

 

 

 

 

Offer

If you decide you want for $675 let me know. I would have to charge $25 to ship it registered mail so I can insure and track it all the way to you.

 

 

Acceptance

$700 is more than i wanted to pay but yeah lets do it. Please give me your paypal details.

 

You can deny the sunrise but you won't get any less burnt by standing out there.

[Mark 1]

It's crystal clear. I can't believe anyone would even debate it

[comix4fun]

Sharon and Comics4fun, don't take this the wrong way but I don't need a lesson in contract law or what constitutes an offer. I can read, I still don't agree. No one is suing over this book, are they?

 

 

 

Now you're just being stubborn. Laws are reflections of established practices and the guidelines of society. Are you saying contract law only applies if someone sues? Society is made up of laws. Transactions between two geeks on a comics board or a merger between two billion dollar companies are governed under the law.

 

They exist all day, every day, in every transaction and that's got nothing to do with whether anyone sues to enforce their rights, it doesn't make their rights any less real and any less spectacular.

 

The fact that you brush off someones rights simply because you don't think this transaction important enough, large enough, or not something someone would sue over is really silly. I am sorry to call it that, but that's what it is.

 

His rights are no less important than anyone elses.

[divad]

(thumbs u

[revat]

In the strictest sense of the legal use of 'offer' the following are the minimum requirement of conditions for an offer should include at least the following 4 conditions: Delivery date, price, terms of payment that includes the date of payment and detail description of the item on offer including a fair description of the condition or type of service

 

 

So basically check the 'offerror's' messages for these 4 elements. If he's got them, its an offer. if not, its not. I'm not sure if some of these can be implied from the rules of the sales forum, and whether or not that plays a role in constituting an offer.

 

But I would start there, if anyone cares what the actual contract laws are.

 

I'm interested to see how this turns out. I'm pretty conflicted on what I want the result to be.

[comicdonna]

The guy renegged on the deal. I can't believe this is still going on.

 

Oh, and a disclaimer here. I have only had one sucessful business.

[sufunk]

Oh man, having had the misfortune of sitting thru 3 years of law school, this thread is one of the funniest i have ever read! I dont remember who said it but the poster that said people would basically have to be bobbleheads nodding agreement over and over was freaking priceless

 

It's VERY simple wether you are at a garage sale, on a comic site or in a court of law. Offer, acceptance, consideration. It's literally day 1 of law school. No joke, very 1st day thats what you learn in any law school in the country. And yes, just like here, there is ALWAYS a couple people that just cant accept that and make the class stay 15 minutes extra arguing that there should be more than offer, acceptance, consideration

 

A book was offered, the buyer accepted, end of story. To not honor that and act like everyone here is off their rocker is just plain douchy, sorry

[Iceman399]

Book was offered at $700. Offer was accepted at $700. If the seller had stated sorry someone beat you to the book etc then that is that and the risk when negotiating on a price. This clearly isn't the case and the seller decided they didn't want to sell it.

[Comicopolis]

It's crystal clear. I can't believe anyone would even debate it

 

Noob

[Shark]

Everyone is so Judist around here and prosecutes someone without knowing all the facts and history.

 

Now I know why Mike Vick went through so much and took so long to regain his name even though we should give 2nd chances and not burn people at the stake!

 

 

There are fewer horrible things than people training dogs to kill each other for entertainment and profit.

 

Amen to that.