PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[Ryan.]

This whole scenario had a weird vibe. I assume that if the reneging buyer had a better, and contrite, attitude about the whole thing he likely could have avoided the PL. Although that's probably true for many probies.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

Okay, I added athaxto to the PL. That's gotta be a record for quickest journey to the PL. I don't see how it can be beat.

 

I didn't realize that setting a Speed record was a positive thing for the PL. I actually almost removed that PL entry but did my own digging first and found this in the sales thread that started it all:

 

I found a cheaper copy available on here today, so as a consumer I made the purchase I wanted to make. I didn't know that was wrong. Even in my messages to Hulk, I let him know I was minutes away from buying a more expensive copy. Again, I was simply shopping and not looking to hurt anyone's feelings as I certainly did not know you all were so familiar.

 

 

To me the part I emboldened (that is, to make appear in a bold text) is the key. It appears the transaction was still going on when he joined and, as a member, decided to cancel that transaction and go for another, less expensive copy. I consider this a fair interpretation of the existing rules. I was happy to see in in Athaxto's own words.

 

However, in Athaxto's defense, that statement does not imply that there has been acceptance on his part.

 

People kick tires all the time.

As a seller, I have sent lots of invoices, requested by the buyer, which have ultimately never been paid.

 

Again, using your example, I never signed the contract. If I had accepted the PayPal invoice only to then cancel it, THEN there might be a contract issue there to be upset about.

 

But I never accepted his PayPal invoice, no money was sent, no book was ever sold to me, thus no deal was formally struck.

 

I work in contracts all day long.

 

I agree about tire kicking but I am not sure how a PayPal invoice got to Athaxto unless he requested one, I don't see how that is different than posting , getting an invoice and then deciding not to go through with it. The PL covers completed transactions as well as promises to complete a transaction.

 

I will say this was not the best nomination or putting on the list I've seen. More facts up front with time frames of the various events is what should be happening.

With the internet their has come a blurring of the line where acceptance occurs. On the boards it is fairly simple. is fairly straightforward. Off the boards it is more complex and in practice rarely is a "negotiation" complete, until money changes hands.

 

eBay brought the two parties to the table. It would have been easy to determine when an ebay "sale" had occurred, although clearly more expensive with an intermediary. Once ebay is removed, there is slightly more risk for both parties and one of those risks is that the transaction is not completed. Those risks are accepted by both parties.

 

An invoice was tendered, rejected, then revised and was awaiting payment, the invoice recipient claims that the deal was not consummated until payment was made. I would not be able to find fault with that since there obviously was some reason why the invoice was originally rejected.

[PovertyRow]

An invoice was tendered, rejected, then revised and was awaiting payment, the invoice recipient claims that the deal was not consummated until payment was made. I would not be able to find fault with that since there obviously was some reason why the invoice was originally rejected.

 

I think we really need to hear back from the accuser (jjeanius) and get a full time line and blow by blow of what exactly happened here.

 

I'm off to work now.

[crassus]

Okay, I added athaxto to the PL. That's gotta be a record for quickest journey to the PL. I don't see how it can be beat.

 

I didn't realize that setting a Speed record was a positive thing for the PL. I actually almost removed that PL entry but did my own digging first and found this in the sales thread that started it all:

 

I found a cheaper copy available on here today, so as a consumer I made the purchase I wanted to make. I didn't know that was wrong. Even in my messages to Hulk, I let him know I was minutes away from buying a more expensive copy. Again, I was simply shopping and not looking to hurt anyone's feelings as I certainly did not know you all were so familiar.

 

 

To me the part I emboldened (that is, to make appear in a bold text) is the key. It appears the transaction was still going on when he joined and, as a member, decided to cancel that transaction and go for another, less expensive copy. I consider this a fair interpretation of the existing rules. I was happy to see in in Athaxto's own words.

 

However, in Athaxto's defense, that statement does not imply that there has been acceptance on his part.

 

People kick tires all the time.

As a seller, I have sent lots of invoices, requested by the buyer, which have ultimately never been paid.

 

Again, using your example, I never signed the contract. If I had accepted the PayPal invoice only to then cancel it, THEN there might be a contract issue there to be upset about.

 

But I never accepted his PayPal invoice, no money was sent, no book was ever sold to me, thus no deal was formally struck.

 

I work in contracts all day long.

 

I agree about tire kicking but I am not sure how a PayPal invoice got to Athaxto unless he requested one, I don't see how that is different than posting , getting an invoice and then deciding not to go through with it. The PL covers completed transactions as well as promises to complete a transaction.

 

I will say this was not the best nomination or putting on the list I've seen. More facts up front with time frames of the various events is what should be happening.

With the internet their has come a blurring of the line where acceptance occurs. On the boards it is fairly simple. is fairly straightforward. Off the boards it is more complex and in practice rarely is a "negotiation" complete, until money changes hands.

 

eBay brought the two parties to the table. It would have been easy to determine when an ebay "sale" had occurred, although clearly more expensive with an intermediary. Once ebay is removed, there is slightly more risk for both parties and one of those risks is that the transaction is not completed. Those risks are accepted by both parties.

 

An invoice was tendered, rejected, then revised and was awaiting payment, the invoice recipient claims that the deal was not consummated until payment was made. I would not be able to find fault with that since there obviously was some reason why the invoice was originally rejected.

 

I believe the first invoice was rejected as there was an error of some kind which was then corrected. I got no sense there was an "offer and counter-offer" action to the invoicing.

[bababooey]

Exactly, requesting an invoice isn't a

Some people who have to deal with international shipping and that is rarely indicated in most threads, someone could send a PM on a book & say something like:

 

"I'd like that book you have listed for $250 but you don't state what your freight fees are to Canada. I'd like to offer $210 for the book plus freight - if that figure works for you - send me an invoice with freight charges & I'll pay it to finalize the deal"

 

That example has some pretty clear communication identifying that it's an invoice request with a condition, it's pending an acceptable freight fee.

 

I'm not saying that's what happened here, I think the guy screwed up but let's face it, PM negotiations are fast & loose here...anytime we see screenshots of any "negotiations" it always seems to look like...

 

"$220 delivered"

"smh - $235"

"lulz"

"LMK"

"K"

 

Then three weeks later the counter offer with the book being held without response becomes an issue...

 

 

[Bosco685]

I'm off to work now.

 

[crassus]

Exactly, requesting an invoice isn't a

Some people who have to deal with international shipping and that is rarely indicated in most threads, someone could send a PM on a book & say something like:

 

"I'd like that book you have listed for $250 but you don't state what your freight fees are to Canada. I'd like to offer $210 for the book plus freight - if that figure works for you - send me an invoice with freight charges & I'll pay it to finalize the deal"

 

That example has some pretty clear communication identifying that it's an invoice request with a condition, it's pending an acceptable freight fee.

 

I'm not saying that's what happened here, I think the guy screwed up but let's face it, PM negotiations are fast & loose here...anytime we see screenshots of any "negotiations" it always seems to look like...

 

"$220 delivered"

"smh - $235"

"lulz"

"LMK"

"K"

 

Then three weeks later the counter offer with the book being held without response becomes an issue...

 

 

I think most people assume that an invoice follows negotiation, it does not normally precede it. I have never heard of anyone saying "send me an invoice and we'll see if we can reach a deal". Why would anyone send an invoice unless it was assumed an agreement to buy had been made?

[Bosco685]

I think most people assume that an invoice follows negotiation, it does not normally precede it. I have never heard of anyone saying "send me an invoice and we'll see if we can reach a deal". Why would anyone send an invoice unless it was assumed an agreement to buy had been made?

 

Exactly!

[Speedy-D]

Both the seller and the buyer freely admitted several times that the deal was a go until the buyer found a cheaper copy. He just backed out to save some money, it had nothing to do with an invoice or what the significance of an invoice is. The buyer told the seller in his email that he was bailing out because "something else has come up." That "something else" turned out to be Hulk44's cheaper copy.

[bababooey]

Exactly, requesting an invoice isn't a

Some people who have to deal with international shipping and that is rarely indicated in most threads, someone could send a PM on a book & say something like:

 

"I'd like that book you have listed for $250 but you don't state what your freight fees are to Canada. I'd like to offer $210 for the book plus freight - if that figure works for you - send me an invoice with freight charges & I'll pay it to finalize the deal"

 

That example has some pretty clear communication identifying that it's an invoice request with a condition, it's pending an acceptable freight fee.

 

I'm not saying that's what happened here, I think the guy screwed up but let's face it, PM negotiations are fast & loose here...anytime we see screenshots of any "negotiations" it always seems to look like...

 

"$220 delivered"

"smh - $235"

"lulz"

"LMK"

"K"

 

Then three weeks later the counter offer with the book being held without response becomes an issue...

 

 

I think most people assume that an invoice follows negotiation, it does not normally precede it. I have never heard of anyone saying "send me an invoice and we'll see if we can reach a deal". Why would anyone send an invoice unless it was assumed an agreement to buy had been made?

In the scenario I outlined freight isn't clarified so there are two figures that go through the offer/acceptance process with the buyer making the final acceptance by issuing payment, I probably could have added "if the freight fee is acceptable I'll finalize it by paying your invoice" - it's a pro forma invoice.

 

My wording could have been clearer but if the guy accepts $210 & charges me three times what a priority box costs, I wouldn't feel obliged to complete the deal.

 

Edited January 4, 2014 by bababooey

[thehumantorch]

I have been getting caught up on all this, and rather than lament the n00b stupidity, I would like to celebrate the great buyers and sellers here. It does get out of control sometimes, but there are more great books and more ready buyers here than you can shake a stick at. Kudos to the marketplace. It is probably going to keep growing and getting crazier, but the core is pure awesomeness.

 

Amen

[jjeanius]

OK, here you go:

 

Buyer made an offer of $750 through eBay. I countered at $800 in a private sale, and provided my email. He sent me an email on Thursday (4:43 PM CST), and said that he would agree to $800 if I covered shipping. He then requested a Paypal invoice if this was acceptable and we had a deal. I sent him an invoice through Paypal on Thursday evening (9:57 PM CST), and labeled it as, "Saga 1 CGC 9.8 SS" rather than "Saga 1 RRP CGC 9.8 SS". I noticed this as soon as the invoice was processed, and I emailed him to bring this to his attention. I told him that I accidentally omitted "RRP" from the invoice, and that I would be happy to cancel this invoice and issue a new invoice if he so desired. He responded at 10:42 PM CST requesting a new invoice, which was provided Friday morning (8:03 AM CST). Customer emailed to back out on transaction Friday afternoon (2:04 PM CST)...exactly twelve minutes after posting in Hulk's thread, and presumably right after finalizing payment on that transaction. He had the second invoice in hand almost six hours before posting in Hulk's sales thread. And there was no point in time where the invoice was in question, as I was the one that pointed out the error and offered to provide a new invoice if desired.

Edited January 4, 2014 by jjeanius

[bababooey]

OK, here you go:

 

Buyer made an offer of $750 through eBay. I countered at $800 in a private sale, and provided my email. He sent me an email on Thursday (4:43 PM CST), and said that he would agree to $800 if I covered shipping. He then requested a Paypal invoice if this was acceptable and we had a deal. I sent him an invoice through Paypal on Thursday evening (9:57 PM CST), and labeled it as, "Saga 1 CGC 9.8 SS" rather than "Saga 1 RRP CGC 9.8 SS". I noticed this as soon as the invoice was processed, and I emailed him to bring this to his attention. I told him that I accidentally omitted "RRP" from the invoice, and that I would be happy to cancel this invoice and issue a new invoice if he so desired. He responded at 10:42 PM CST requesting a new invoice, which was provided Friday morning (8:03 AM CST). Customer emailed to back out on transaction Friday afternoon (2:04 PM CST)...exactly twelve minutes after posting in Hulk's thread, and presumably right after finalizing payment on that transaction. He had the second invoice in hand almost six hours before posting in Hulk's sales thread. And there was no point in time where the invoice was in question, as I was the one that pointed out the error and offered to provide a new invoice if desired.

Great, that removes any doubt as to whether he was signed up here or not. Case closed.

 

The hypothetical invoice discussion isn't in relation to your deal, it's in relation to where people can have misunderstandings on when the deal is done.

(thumbs u

[Logan510]

If you had completed the deal through Ebay instead of taking it private, you could've nailed him for being a non paying bidder.

[btso-migration]

Ya but the 10% ebay fee is a killer.....

[Logan510]

Ya but the 10% ebay fee is a killer.....

 

 

But's it's also against Ebay's ToS to do that

Edited January 4, 2014 by Logan510

[crassus]

Ya but the 10% ebay fee is a killer.....

 

 

But's it's also against Ebay's ToS to do that

 

This is true, but while the seller did take a risk stepping outside the Ebay system, it does not change where fault lies. What is disturbing about Athaxto's understanding of "invoice" is that it implies that a buyer could collect any number of invoices and only finally, when they see fit, decide which one to pay.

[troydivision1]

Honest questions:

Could Athaxto ask to place Hulk44 on the PL for canceling, while commendable, a successful transaction?

Could Court's post, while appropriate, be construed as threadcrapping?

[Hulk44]

Good Questions: However, I will go on any PL list to protect a Boardie Member, and any Boardie Member can thread my sales thread if he needed help and was wronged...

[crassus]

Honest questions:

Could Athaxto ask to place Hulk44 on the PL for canceling, while commendable, a successful transaction?

Could Court's post, while appropriate, be construed as threadcrapping?

 

IMO Hulk44 (or any member) is not obligated to follow through on any transaction the completion of which would implicate him/her in a practice prohibited by the community. Since Athaxto's has gone on the PL, it has the effect of vindicating Hulk44's decision.