PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[JAM_NYC]

Hey JAM,

 

Thanks for not kicking me in the nads!

 

I'm out....until they pull me back in!

 

Time for some dinner in New Orleans.

Enjoy! I hope you get a lot of beads!

[Logan510]

I have been self employed for 35 of my 53 years of life. I have never, ever spent money I did not have in hand. It is not only a bad habit to get into, it is dangerous, and if you want to really dissect it, can become criminal. I work for myself AND I am a collector and would always put paying my debts before any "deal". TBH anyone who can see this as "OK" would raise red flags in my mind.

 

If you use a credit card you are spending money you don't have.

 

If you use time payments with a dealer, you are spending money you don't have.

 

If you are allowing someone time to pay you are allowing them to spend money they don't have.

 

See how simple it is to spend money you don't have? I agree, people get in over their heads all the time.

 

I haven't had a credit card or a line of credit in over 10 years. You don't have to worry about me spending money I don't have.

 

 

Uh...what?

[joeypost]

I have been self employed for 35 of my 53 years of life. I have never, ever spent money I did not have in hand. It is not only a bad habit to get into, it is dangerous, and if you want to really dissect it, can become criminal. I work for myself AND I am a collector and would always put paying my debts before any "deal". TBH anyone who can see this as "OK" would raise red flags in my mind.

 

If you use a credit card you are spending money you don't have.

 

If you use time payments with a dealer, you are spending money you don't have.

 

If you are allowing someone time to pay you are allowing them to spend money they don't have.

 

See how simple it is to spend money you don't have? I agree, people get in over their heads all the time.

 

I haven't had a credit card or a line of credit in over 10 years. You don't have to worry about me spending money I don't have.

 

 

Nice attempt, but you know that is not what I am talking about. And believe it or not, if I do use a credit card...I have he cash reserves ON HAND before I do so. Again, when you find yourself in the same barrel, it is easy to condone certain practices.

[Gotham Kid]

You can talk till your blue in the face about it, but I know when I don't have money to spend, I simply don't spend money, no matter how tempting a deal may be. Sure this is true for most people.

 

Whether he was buying for personal use or to kick start his business is an important distinction to me.

 

Doug Schmell was removing funds that were entrusted to be held safely. They were not his and he buying personal books with other people's money.

 

When you are self employed or running a small business (like you and I do) you have accounts payable and accounts receivable and there is an overlap.

 

Your accounts payable account can be late and yet you can still have money in accounts receivable to reinvest in the business. It's the nature of small business.

 

It's why many bills can and are payable 30 / 60 / 90 days out. It allows businesses stay liquid while floating in the middle.

 

The intent with the Star Wars figures is an important distinction IMO because people who work for themselves think differently than collectors.

 

That is where I was going with my point.

 

And yes, Chip belongs in the HOS, and yes it wasn't OK that he didn't answer anyone until Brock's CL post, and yes it's not OK that he didn't ship packages out.

 

And I'm not sleeping in a Holiday Inn Express tonight.

 

I have been self employed for 35 of my 53 years of life. I have never, ever spent money I did not have in hand. It is not only a bad habit to get into, it is dangerous, and if you want to really dissect it, can become criminal. I work for myself AND I am a collector and would always put paying my debts before any "deal". TBH anyone who can see this as "OK" would raise red flags in my mind.

 

Yup

[thehumantorch]

I actually find your stance on this insulting to those with confirmed horrible mental illnesses like Bi-Polar or others that prevent them from living a normal life. You also have no idea what education and experiences people have so blanket statements are equally insulting to a lot of people here.

 

You find my stance insulting but you don't find it insulting that people call someone names when there is discussion of mental illness but they don't actually know whether they are mentally ill or not?

 

That's what you should be insulted by.

 

When comic sales were going well and money was being made Chip seemed to be functioning just fine on here. Only when the money dissappeared did it suddenly become an issue.

 

Lots of people function just fine when things go smoothly and break down when they don't. That's exactly the point.

 

I asked in general once, but specifically what did you do the night he made his statements? You were online at the time. You have his number and his address. Did you reach out to him to make sure he was OK? As concerned as you are with his well being, I am going to assume you did.

 

I called after the police arrived and Chip didn't pick up.

 

I did get a call from the hospital the next day explaining Chip was being checked in and held for evaluation.

 

And I speak to Chip from time to time about things other than comics, as do other board members who have dealt with Chip through the years.

 

I never called Chip names and have no intention of ever doing so. However, I think you are missing the meaning of what I meant above....

 

I called him names. Liar. Thief. He's lied to us, he's stolen from us. The names are accurate and he's earned them most of his life.

[MagnusX]

I actually find your stance on this insulting to those with confirmed horrible mental illnesses like Bi-Polar or others that prevent them from living a normal life. You also have no idea what education and experiences people have so blanket statements are equally insulting to a lot of people here.

 

You find my stance insulting but you don't find it insulting that people call someone names when there is discussion of mental illness but they don't actually know whether they are mentally ill or not?

 

That's what you should be insulted by.

 

When comic sales were going well and money was being made Chip seemed to be functioning just fine on here. Only when the money dissappeared did it suddenly become an issue.

 

Lots of people function just fine when things go smoothly and break down when they don't. That's exactly the point.

 

I asked in general once, but specifically what did you do the night he made his statements? You were online at the time. You have his number and his address. Did you reach out to him to make sure he was OK? As concerned as you are with his well being, I am going to assume you did.

 

I called after the police arrived and Chip didn't pick up.

 

I did get a call from the hospital the next day explaining Chip was being checked in and held for evaluation.

 

And I speak to Chip from time to time about things other than comics, as do other board members who have dealt with Chip through the years.

 

I never called Chip names and have no intention of ever doing so. However, I think you are missing the meaning of what I meant above....

 

I called him names. Liar. Thief. He's lied to us, he's stolen from us. The names are accurate and he's earned them most of his life.

 

[font:Book Antiqua]Plain and simple.[/font]

 

[CAHokie]

Im not ready to do that. I am in full support of the HOS but not to accuse him of a crime. If he suffers from a mental illness, then he has my genuine hope that he gets better. I would hope that he makes right by everyone first. I really wish the medical issues hadn't been brought up.

 

 

[seanfingh]

Im not ready to do that. I am in full support of the HOS but not to accuse him of a crime. If he suffers from a mental illness, then he has my genuine hope that he gets better. I would hope that he makes right by everyone first. I really wish the medical issues hadn't been brought up.

 

 

They were always out there and they were fomented by Chip's own posts. No one wants to be part of someone spiraling down the mental Heath toilet, and no one wants to enable a scammer or dirt bag. Everyone has the right to act, post and do whatever according to their own conscience. That's all Roy is doing. It's an awful situation. If you look at Chip's entire body of work, it is VERY problematic.

 

From someone that has spent days worth of time fighting Roy, I have to say that there is nothing wrong with him continuing to point out that there may be extenuating circumstances. That's his conscience in action. He is no more right or wrong than those who believe that years of evidence of bad deals, bad decisions and problems tell the story.

[topofthetotem]

But one is a definite set of facts based the other is at best circumstantial hearsay and what's driving people a little over the top is the creating an apple to apple comparison and they are not.

 

We are very fortunate to live in a very wealthy part of the world. We have a social safety net that provides for the most down trodden of our collective societies. Is it ideal? No! But would he be so destitute that he would starve? That he would have no roof over his head? That he would not have access to support services? No to all.

 

I've been poor before and it's not much fun but if your motivated and willing to learn skills you can climb out of that pit. It depends on you for the most part to do the work and it requires effort.

 

The vast majority of people with mental illness live very productive lives, hold down jobs, raise families, heck run for president (J/K) and such and even though 1 in 5 are affected by mental illness a mere 3% are actually involved in any form of criminal activity with the majority of that 3% having secondary affliciations such as addictions to what ever your poison happens to be. This false narrative that mental illness somehow takes away a persons ability to reason and differentiate between right or wrong is truly a disservice to people with a mental illness and would only apply in the most absolutely extreme of cases of people with dissociative disorders.

 

Treatment whether it be therapy or through medication are very effective on the big three anxiety/depression/bipolar and depending on the type disorder it is 70%- 90% effective. But as I said just like crawling out of poverty it requires a commitment and a conscious descision to want to get better.

 

 

 

 

 

[Red84]

For the record, I voted for inclusion into the HOS. I did so for two reasons. The first is the criteria laid out in the thread dealing with the Probation List and HOS Rules. It states there "b) The Hall Of Shame is for serious transgressions. For example, selling a book/books and sending nothing of value in the package. Interfering with someone's business. Being a multiple offender." The bolded part is where there's irrefutable proof that Chip falls into this category.

 

 

I want to address this specific point about Chip being a "multiple offender." I would agree, however, his offense seems to be that he ships late, has poor communication, BUT he will eventually deliver the books that were purchased. I have not heard from anyone that has paid for books and not received the goods (current transactions are still pending as he appears to be in the process of shipping). To me, that behavior is not HOS worthy. It's a nuisance and I wouldn't want to deal with it, but it is not the level of malice that I require for a HOS vote.

 

 

I asked you once earlier today, before the flurry of discussion....where do you place the GoFundMe deception in this entire saga?

 

And for that matter where do you place his disappearance after accepting funds in November followed by his claims of inability to contact anyone or ship anything due to losing his job, etc. but leaping on craigslist opportunities demonstrating both means and time that he denied having?

 

Does serial lying in the midst of business dealings along with attempting to induce monetary donations under false pretenses move the needle at all?

 

It would seem someone who only fulfills his obligations when the hammer is brought down on them and deceives and lies and hides until he's left with no other option is a pretty low bar for honest dealing.

 

I didn't see your post about the GoFundMe fiasco.

 

I participated in that charity thread and I was pissed after more information came out. I felt taken advantage of; however, I don't think his deception was intentional. I think he believed that paying off his paypal loan was part of his emergency. It should have been disclosed where all the money he was asking for would be going, but we also should have asked for a more itemized list from the get go. I thought it was on the shady side, but withholding information is not the same to me as actively providing false information. They're both bad, but the latter is worse. I don't see Chip as the master manipulator that seems to be the consensus. I don't give him that much credit. His tendency to wait until pressure is applied is also troubling, but not decisive for me. The fact is that he is now fulfilling his obligations when his fate is all but sealed on this forum. In other words, he's already been smashed by the hammer this time, but he is still following through. I think his behavior is poor and I wouldn't deal with him without significant safeguards in place, but I don't think his behavior is HOS worthy. I reserve the HOS for people like GoodsNewsComics.

 

 

I can see that, thanks for the explanation. It's good to hear how other people see the same situation. That helps to get a little Rashomon going.

 

I don't want to ramble but, I took this statement on the boards to mean he needed the full $15k to avoid complete destruction of his life:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=9372220#Post9372220

 

"That being said, I believe this coming week will be the end of it. It will not be a positive result. A few things have escalated quickly (some as of this morning) and on the 1st all the bills are due yet again, piling on. I will lose my home, my cats and the rest of my possessions. Yes, things are that bad. If a long-lost relative dies and leaves me $15k you'll see me celebrating. Otherwise I'll see y'all on the flip side."

 

And on GoFundMe:

 

"I will not be able to catch up quickly enough to save my home and my car. Once I lose those, I'm sunk. Every bill I have is at least two months behind and on the 1st all the major ones are due again. All monetary accounts are in the negative and internet/phone are in danger of being shut off this week. Anything I had that was worth selling has been sold or pawned...only a few pieces of furniture and the computer I'm using to write this remain."

 

 

He needed $3k to avoid all those tragedies immediately (eviction, utilities, etc), but he made it sound like that full amount was what was needed. It wasn't until he slipped to someone in a PM and was stuck and pressed in his GoFundMe thread that the truth came out.

 

Really, you should read that thread again. It was like pulling teeth from crocodile. He parsed and parted out foggy answers to simple questions. Then there's the part where he says the IRS is going to seize his assets imminently, but really it was just a letter letting him know he was behind on payments.

 

Feels a lot less like a "mistake" and a whole lot more like "fraud in the inducement".

 

There's a tiny seedling of truth somewhere in all that stuff and it's then exaggerated and blown out of proportion to something grandiose and, ultimately, false.

 

Maybe it's because I was the one trying to get answers from him in that thread and the target kept moving and the smokescreen was thick and the reality of the tragedy was relatively minor compared to how he made it out in his pleas.

 

Read the language he uses again. The manipulative turns of phrase. When he's called on contradictory facts or someone gets upset that they weren't given the whole story before donating he shifts gears to "I know I'm not liked here", to make it personal and deflect from his own responsibility and deceptive wording and not factual based on his own words and deeds.

 

You're right. I just read the thread again. I feel there was clear intentional deception. If I could change my vote I would. I would vote Yes on the HOS based on the GoFundMe fiasco.

The particular post that put it over the edge was the following. I couldn't use the quote feature since the thread is locked. I bolded it below where Chip is "answering" your questions.

 

 

Originally Posted By: comix4fun

So you owe back taxes to the IRS. I get that. How big a part of the $15k is it?

 

It's much more than $15k but I only factored in the monthly payments and not any full amount. When I'm working I can afford the monthly payments but as of this moment I still don't have a job so I can afford nothing.

 

Quote:

You also owe "Local Loans". What does that mean? Who are these loans with? Is that to a person or a bank? If they have a collateral interest in everything you own how have you been able to sell off, or offer for sale, everything you own? Don't you have a loan agreement that spells out what you can do with collateral?

 

Local as in two companies with local offices. I don't know how big the companies are and that doesn't really matter. When I say "everything" I of course am not referring to stuff like my forks & spoons...but my couch, tv, computer, phone, etc. Anything of enough value to pay off the loan where if it was all taken I'd be staring at blank walls and sitting on the floor with no way to contact anyone.

 

Quote:

Is it safe to say most of the money you're raising is to pay off loans then?

 

No, most of the $15k is strictly for rent/car/insurance/phone/internet (both owed in the past and in the near future) until I get established in a new job and can move into a smaller place.

 

Quote:

I wouldn't be asking if this wasn't a topic that you opened up, so I hope you don't think I'm prying. I just want to understand exactly the nature and scope of your predicament.

 

I understand. I wasn't sure how I opened up any particulars as far as amounts but I'm happy to answer questions I can. No worries.

 

Regarding the taxes I need to keep up those payments because if I default and the IRS decides to start seizing my assets (it's outlined in all their paperwork to me) then I'm screwed that way as well.

 

Nothing was added up in a calculator. It was suggested to me that I might try a GoFundMe page because people might want to help. I was out of options and out of things to sell that would get me large chunks of cash, so I did it.

 

For the goal I basically took a rough amount of :

 

1. What is past due that I need to pay now (or I'll be screwed), and...

 

2. What I will owe until money from a new job starts coming in regularly (that if I don't pay I'll be screwed), plus...

 

3. Moving expenses into a smaller & more affordable home (which I need to do or I'll be right back in this same position in 4 months).

 

4. Some miscellany that I know will come up as I'm focusing all my money toward the above until I get a job. (gas? food? etc)

 

I hope that answers everything.

 

[crassus]

The GoFundMe fiasco probably would have been the last straw for many except the spectre of some "desperate act" on Chip's part diverted the growing scepticism into a well intentioned support group. For me that's the reason for the super sensitivity about discussing mental illness. Its not just that people feel played, but Chip took everybody to the wall on that one.

[Beige]

 

 

They were always out there and they were fomented by Chip's own posts. No one wants to be part of someone spiraling down the mental Heath toilet, and no one wants to enable a scammer or dirt bag. Everyone has the right to act, post and do whatever according to their own conscience. That's all Roy is doing. It's an awful situation. If you look at Chip's entire body of work, it is VERY problematic.

 

From someone that has spent days worth of time fighting Roy, I have to say that there is nothing wrong with him continuing to point out that there may be extenuating circumstances. That's his conscience in action. He is no more right or wrong than those who believe that years of evidence of bad deals, bad decisions and problems tell the story.

 

Great post.

Roy has the right to defend whoever he likes.

It's Chip on trial here, not Roy.

 

Jimmers made a very brave and open post - imagine if Chip was found to have the same issues.

No excuses for Chip, but possibly a reason

 

[ashsaytr]

 

 

Yes, it did lure him out of hiding but every one of us would jump at a carrot if it was large enough regardless of the circumstances.

 

Chip's choice to not respond to boardies but to respond to CL was made clear, but that to me is still an act of a person with depression who is not coping well with life circumstances. Not theft.

 

 

About 3 years ago, I bought something from someone I'd dealt with many times before who needed money He never sent the item. His excuse was (when he finally answered) that he didn't have the money to ship the item (it would have cost less than 50 cents) He's now in the HOS.

 

About 2 years ago, I bought something from someone who needed to attend his grandmother's funeral. I had also dealt with him several times. I paid for shipping. He never sent the item. About 6 months later, when I finally tracked him down at his place of work, he said he was out of work eating soup for the summer, so he didn't have the money to ship my item (he was back working then). He eventually paid me back, but it was a struggle. I was very and still am, disappointed.

 

When you get money for something and use it for something else, whether it's a bargain or not..whether you are flipping or not...you are using someone else's funds without their permission. That IS stealing.

 

I can't imagine that you would have done that. You would have shipped the items and might have ASKED someone to lend you the funds to buy something you would flip, but I don't see you as being a thief.

 

You might still be a hippie;) but that's not the same...

 

So maybe it's time to stop trying to excuse what is clearly NOT the kind of behaviour that you'd find acceptable for yourself ...

 

[mikenyc]

It's good to see Roy still fighting every injustice one feather kick at a time.

 

Not sure why there has been 7000 pages devoted to this issue. I can empathize with someone if they suffer from a mental illness but I still wouldn't want them to steal from me.

 

Giving a pyromaniac your empathy for his compulsion, but also not allowing them to play with gasoline in your living room are not mutually exclusive.. If the guy is ripping people off and being deceitful in his board dealings, he should be prevented from doing so, no matter the reason. If you want to start a charity thread to pay for intervention that's great also.

 

 

[CAHokie]

 

 

They were always out there and they were fomented by Chip's own posts. No one wants to be part of someone spiraling down the mental Heath toilet, and no one wants to enable a scammer or dirt bag. Everyone has the right to act, post and do whatever according to their own conscience. That's all Roy is doing. It's an awful situation. If you look at Chip's entire body of work, it is VERY problematic.

 

From someone that has spent days worth of time fighting Roy, I have to say that there is nothing wrong with him continuing to point out that there may be extenuating circumstances. That's his conscience in action. He is no more right or wrong than those who believe that years of evidence of bad deals, bad decisions and problems tell the story.

 

 

Great post.

Roy has the right to defend whoever he likes.

It's Chip on trial here, not Roy.

 

Jimmers made a very brave and open post - imagine if Chip was found to have the same issues.

No excuses for Chip, but possibly a reason

 

 

 

Of course he does. My point about wishing mental illness hadn't been brought up is that I hate discussing the mental state of someone when we don't know. It just feels wrong somehow. I agree that if he has/had an issue, one would have to factor that into their thoughts on him and his behavior.

[wombat]

Of course Roy will not drop the mental health aspect. Without it how else can he defend Chip? Of course he will say he isn't defending Chip. And he isn't making excuses for him. And then he will promptly defend and make excuses for him while talking about mental illness. Rinse and repeat.

[VintageComics]

Of course Roy will not drop the mental health aspect. Without it how else can he defend Chip? Of course he will say he isn't defending Chip. And he isn't making excuses for him. And then he will promptly defend and make excuses for him while talking about mental illness. Rinse and repeat.

 

Please don't throw me into a crowd of partisan politicians here when it's obvious that I don't have allegiances to anything except for what I believe to be true or fair.

 

You don't know anything about what I would or wouldn't do. My world is not that shallow or two dimensional.

 

And please don't make it personal, if you are able to restrain from it.

 

 

[VintageComics]

Of course he does. My point about wishing mental illness hadn't been brought up is that I hate discussing the mental state of someone when we don't know. It just feels wrong somehow. I agree that if he has/had an issue, one would have to factor that into their thoughts on him and his behavior.

 

I hate discussing it too as it's a very gray and unsettling topic.

 

If Chip is not mentally well that will come out.

 

If I'm wrong that will come out too.

 

The point is not to be right or wrong, though. It's to do the best we can.

 

After all these pages, this post made my day.

 

 

[wombat]

Of course Roy will not drop the mental health aspect. Without it how else can he defend Chip? Of course he will say he isn't defending Chip. And he isn't making excuses for him. And then he will promptly defend and make excuses for him while talking about mental illness. Rinse and repeat.

 

Please don't throw me into a crowd of partisan politicians here when it's obvious that I don't have allegiances to anything except for what I believe to be true or fair.

 

You don't know anything about what I would or wouldn't do. My world is not that shallow or two dimensional.

 

And please don't make it personal, if you are able to restrain from it.

 

 

Aren't you the guy telling everyone how they would react in certain situations?

 

And this isn't personal. Its factual.

[oakman29]

Just let the poll do the talking.

Mental health issues or not, wrong is wrong.