PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[Aces]

I'm starting to think there should be a 24 hour payment or communication rule. If someone buys something but can't pay that day then they should send a PM stating their intentions, asking for time, working out details, etc. If you have enough time to post an I'll Take It then you have enough time to send a PM. I don't have anyone in particular in mind while I type this but the overall communication around here the last few months has been severely lacking.

Communication is key.

A buyer putting a bin then disappearing for days or a week or two without any notice as to what's up sucks.

Imagine if a seller did that.

 

[thehumantorch]

I'm starting to think there should be a 24 hour payment or communication rule. If someone buys something but can't pay that day then they should send a PM stating their intentions, asking for time, working out details, etc. If you have enough time to post an I'll Take It then you have enough time to send a PM. I don't have anyone in particular in mind while I type this but the overall communication around here the last few months has been severely lacking.

Communication is key.

A buyer putting a bin then disappearing for days or a week or two without any notice as to what's up sucks.

Imagine if a seller did that.

 

Unless a buyer asks for extra time to pay prior to I think a week is more than enough time to pay.

 

Rather than a transaction has to be completed within 30 days perhaps we should break that down into a reasonable time for the buyer to pay and the seller to ship.

Edited March 17, 2013 by thehumantorch

[Awax]

I'm starting to think there should be a 24 hour payment or communication rule. If someone buys something but can't pay that day then they should send a PM stating their intentions, asking for time, working out details, etc. If you have enough time to post an I'll Take It then you have enough time to send a PM. I don't have anyone in particular in mind while I type this but the overall communication around here the last few months has been severely lacking.

Communication is key.

A buyer putting a bin then disappearing for days or a week or two without any notice as to what's up sucks.

Imagine if a seller did that.

 

Unless a buyer asks for extra time to pay prior to I think a week is more than enough time to pay.

 

Rather than a transaction has to be completed within 30 days perhaps we should break that down into a reasonable time for the buyer to pay and the seller to ship.

 

I agree

[skypinkblu]

I agree that 30 days is too long unless there is an agreement with the seller...However, let's think about what the list is for.

 

In my mind, it's for egregious problems. Not the ordinary PITA ones. The list is pretty long now, and the 30 days works, because it ferrets out the real problem cases.

 

If you change it and make the time shorter, this thread is going really grow.

 

Is that what it was intended for? Minor problems? Medium problems, or problems that will affect many of us, where a warning will help the other members.

 

[nocutename]

I agree that 30 days is too long unless there is an agreement with the seller...However, let's think about what the list is for.

 

In my mind, it's for egregious problems. Not the ordinary PITA ones. The list is pretty long now, and the 30 days works, because it ferrets out the real problem cases.

 

If you change it and make the time shorter, this thread is going really grow.

 

Is that what it was intended for? Minor problems? Medium problems, or problems that will affect many of us, where a warning will help the other members.

 

 

Sharon, I am not looking to put anyone on the list. All I am asking is how long do I have to wait for payment. I will never force anyone to pay for a book however, I don't want to be inconvenienced either. This is a case that the buyer approached me so he is well aware that payment is due. I can appreciate that not everyone is on the boards 24-7 but he should be respectful of the time period.

 

I will wait a two-week period and then send a separate PM requesting payment within three days. If he doesn't reply by then, I am just going to list them on ebay. I was just wondering if there was a timeline for payment that is why I posted.

[Sqeggs]

I'm starting to think there should be a 24 hour payment or communication rule. If someone buys something but can't pay that day then they should send a PM stating their intentions, asking for time, working out details, etc. If you have enough time to post an I'll Take It then you have enough time to send a PM. I don't have anyone in particular in mind while I type this but the overall communication around here the last few months has been severely lacking.

Communication is key.

A buyer putting a bin then disappearing for days or a week or two without any notice as to what's up sucks.

Imagine if a seller did that.

 

There is a certain seller who seems to do that pretty regularly, judging by the number of times I've seen buyers revive his sales threads from a week or two or longer before and ask what happened to him.

 

In line with Sharon's post, I guess there is being a schmuck and then there is being a PL candidate. I suppose we each have our own private PLs compiled from observing sellers' behavior in their sales threads.

[skypinkblu]

I agree that 30 days is too long unless there is an agreement with the seller...However, let's think about what the list is for.

 

In my mind, it's for egregious problems. Not the ordinary PITA ones. The list is pretty long now, and the 30 days works, because it ferrets out the real problem cases.

 

If you change it and make the time shorter, this thread is going really grow.

 

Is that what it was intended for? Minor problems? Medium problems, or problems that will affect many of us, where a warning will help the other members.

 

 

Sharon, I am not looking to put anyone on the list. All I am asking is how long do I have to wait for payment. I will never force anyone to pay for a book however, I don't want to be inconvenienced either. This is a case that the buyer approached me so he is well aware that payment is due. I can appreciate that not everyone is on the boards 24-7 but he should be respectful of the time period.

 

I will wait a two-week period and then send a separate PM requesting payment within three days. If he doesn't reply by then, I am just going to list them on ebay. I was just wondering if there was a timeline for payment that is why I posted.

 

I know what you mean Jeanine, because I've held books because I didn't want to wind up on the list myself...perhaps we need something that allows a seller to just post here, saying" I'm backing out since there has been no payment within 10 days" books are going on eBay, or Clink or my store, or whatever.....maybe in the future it should be something to think about putting in our auctions.

 

[PovertyRow]

Better wait the 20 + days or face the wrath of Pov

 

This has been troubling me for while now.

 

The first rule of the PL/HOS is:

"a) If a transaction between board members is not completed within 30 days, the offended party may submit the offender's name for inclusion to the HOS/Probation List (hereafter called the PL)"

 

The operative word is "completed". How can a transaction be completed in 30 days if the buyer takes 30 days to send payment?

 

When I phrased that for the rules, I was envisioning 30 days from sending payment to receipt of item with a satisfactory outcome on both sides. To me THAT is a completed transaction.

 

Maybe it is time to fine tune the rules now that we have had some time to see them in action.

 

This seems to have been glossed over.

 

I have to ask, is 30 days a fair amount of time to complete a transaction? It would go like this:

 

1) Buyer posts the

 

2) Buyer and seller PM each other for info (i.e. Paypal address etc and where to ship to the buyer)

 

3) Buyer sends Payment

 

4) Upon receipt seller ships item(s)

 

5) Buyer receives item(s)

 

The whole thing can conceivably be done in a day. Heck, take a week and you still have 3 weeks for parts 4 and 5.

 

It is why the rules specify a completed transaction within 30 days.There are contingencies for longer than 30 days when terms are agreed upon by both parties.

 

But this was never meant to mean someone can take 30 days after the to make a payment or to ship and item after payment.

 

Really - 30 days for a completed transaction is more than generous. Imagine being on eBay and waiting 30 days for your item to ship, or waiting 30 days to pay for it. It would be posted all over CG.

 

 

[Speedy-D]

So, how about calling it two weeks to pay, two weeks to ship?

[Bio-Rupp]

30 days is generous... but one has to remember that sometimes life can get in the way here.

 

I like the 30 day time frame mainly because it gives a more than fair time frame for both parties.

 

Concerning payments... well I'm betting that each and every one of us sometime spend too much and need that extra few days to pay. I'm one of the worst to jump in and say if you can wait till Sat for payment. Its not usually because I want to inconvenience the seller or that I don't have the money...its that I just don't want to be caught short if something concerning life happens (car trouble, sick puppy, bail).

 

Given if the seller oks that, then it doesn't apply here.

 

I always felt (wished, hoped, prayed) that time frame is in place for two reasons... (and I know that these both are "wishful thinking Pov")

 

1) Afford buyers the time to buy something they reeeeeeaaaaalllly want

 

2) Afford sellers the time to ship something a little later if they get in a bind

 

I understand that both of these reasons can (and have been) taken advantage of. I, myself have had shipping delays of a little over two weeks to get all CT wins out and try to get back into the swing of working a real job myself. In many of us "weekend selling warriors" scenarios, this is a great excuse to need a tad more time.

 

Sure that's an "excuse", but its a pretty good one. Same thing with wanting to pay a few days/weeks later for something one really wants, but doesn't want the wife to see an empty checking account. We all have our reasons.

 

I always looked at the 30 day rule as a guideline to abide by... by both sides... and I feel that its more than fair and is beneficial to both parties.

 

Lets keep it the way it is. Shorting the time frame could just cause more boardie stress & butthurt on both sides of the coin.

 

For an example of possible butthurt here, I'm waiting three weeks today for mylar bags I purchased in a board sale...

 

I owe 50 of those bags to another boardie who saw me purchase them and knew I was shipping him a box of goodies from one of my sales. He asks to buy some to throw in with his purchases, I agree, and he does so.

 

Well lets the two weeks pass, and I still haven't got the mylars and the fellow who was waiting for me to ship them to him (on top of waiting the time to ship his initial box from me)... well he gets anxious and wants to nominate me for probation list for non shipment with a 2 week time frame. Now I know this isn't going to happen, because this fellow is like a " brother from another mutha"... the point is he could.

 

I also realize this an extreme example... but some buyers are pretty darn extreme around here.

 

I know "in hand" sales is the norm too, but it doesn't happen all the time here... so "in hand" flamers just chill.

 

Those bags are more than likely going to ship this week... well within a 30 day time frame... but on a two week frame and a possible communication breakdown (which we all no never happens here ) ... heres what will happen...

 

. Everyone gets mad, days are spent filling the probie discussion board talking about it, flamers start flamin', lines are drawn in the sand to cover all the kkraapp that has been thrown... and the rest is board history.

 

All this said... yes I would like to pay within minutes of a buy and yes I would love to receive that purchase in the mail in less than 48 hours via bird, plane or donkey (especially donkey ... but a wise man once said that patience was a virtue (was that Detroit Mike talking about mandatory firearm purchase waiting period regulations...I can't remember).

 

Anything said above fails on lack of communication between buyer and seller tho... so anything I said isn't worth a grain of salt when that breaks down.

 

Rupp (which is more than its worth) = keep the 30 day rule.

[Ryan.]

Selling and shipping delays happen. Not communicating the reasons for those delays is unnacceptable.

[seanfingh]

Selling and shipping delays happen. Not communicating the reasons for those delays is unnacceptable.

 

That is what it is all about. Plus the vast majority of the folks on here are understanding and considerate. I like to do all of my International shipping at one time, and I was waiting for a couple of books to arrive from another Seller so that I could combine them with mine and save on shipping. I also had two packages going to Canada that were on hold as well.

 

Then I got waylaid by the flu. All told it was about 18 days, which is waaaaay longer than it should have been. I communicated to the extent possible while I was sick and everyone was great. I am not a huge fan of arbitrary time frames, and I believe that the PL does a pretty good job of re-training behavior and discouraging recidivism. And it is a long enough time that I didn't get nominated.

[comicdonna]

I'm all for keeping the time frame the way it is. I do think there should be a clause stating a maximum communication time frame though.

 

 

 

"If a buyer hits the i'll take it/agrees to a PM deal, and fails to communicate within a week, the seller came move forward with another sale".

 

I'm sure other things would need to be added, to keep everything in balance.

[skypinkblu]

I've also seen deals where someone says and then has to go run and sell something to pay the seller.

 

I can understand the seller needing the money for something as well and not being able to wait 30 days.

 

That's why, I was suggesting to keep the 30 rule for the Probie list, but...give people in need an out by allowing them to post payment required within X number of days, so that they won't have to worry about being on the list if they then advise the buyer their time is up. They would have to send the buyer a PM, etc, and wait 2 days or something before reselling.

 

I think it would have to be upfront in their specific thread though.

 

Don't know if that would make this more convoluted...simple is VERY good...and these rules have worked remarkably well....so I'm also of the "if it ain't broken don't fix it;) mindset.

 

[PovertyRow]

People are talking about keeping the rule intact but the rule says:

 

"If a transaction between board members is not completed within 30 days"

 

The two principles there are "between board members" and "completed".

 

The main reason I bring this up is seeing this not uncommon scenario:

 

Seller: "It's been 2 weeks and I am still waiting for payment from MemberX. How long do I have to wait to nominate for the PL?"

Common reply: "According to the rules you need to wait the 30 days."

 

But that isn't what the rules say. The rules say 30 days for a completed transaction between members. Is a transaction "completed" if only payment has been sent? Or does a completed transaction mean payment sent and item received?

 

I get Rupp's take on "weekend selling warriors" but that is easy enough to address: just state an estimate for delivery time in the FS post. There is nothing prohibiting that. In fact, the 2nd rule references agreed upon extensions to the time frame.

 

The bottom line is I am not against the 30 Day Rule. What I am confused about is how it has been interpreted to mean a buyer can take 30 days to pay. Or a seller can take 30 days to ship.

 

[skypinkblu]

People are talking about keeping the rule intact but the rule says:

 

"If a transaction between board members is not completed within 30 days"

 

The two principles there are "between board members" and "completed".

 

The main reason I bring this up is seeing this not uncommon scenario:

 

Seller: "It's been 2 weeks and I am still waiting for payment from MemberX. How long do I have to wait to nominate for the PL?"

Common reply: "According to the rules you need to wait the 30 days."

 

But that isn't what the rules say. The rules say 30 days for a completed transaction between members. Is a transaction "completed" if only payment has been sent? Or does a completed transaction mean payment sent and item received?

 

I get Rupp's take on "weekend selling warriors" but that is easy enough to address: just state an estimate for delivery time in the FS post. There is nothing prohibiting that. In fact, the 2nd rule references agreed upon extensions to the time frame.

 

The bottom line is I am not against the 30 Day Rule. What I am confused about is how it has been interpreted to mean a buyer can take 30 days to pay. Or a seller can take 30 days to ship.

 

BECAUSE...they are PEOPLE...and one person is going to ship/pay asap in any case cause that's how they are wired and that's how they act and what they think is fair, and another one is going to say...LOOK, I have 30 days, get off my case!

 

Actually, make that 1225 are going to ship and pay ASAP and 1 is going to say "get off my case"

 

Isn't a shame that rules need to be made for the few, to help the many?

 

I had practically no sleep last night, so yes, I am babbling;)

[PovertyRow]

BECAUSE...they are PEOPLE...and one person is going to ship/pay asap in any case cause that's how they are wired and that's how they act and what they think is fair, and another one is going to say...LOOK, I have 30 days, get off my case!

 

Actually, make that 1225 are going to ship and pay ASAP and 1 is going to say "get off my case"

 

Isn't a shame that rules need to be made for the few, to help the many?

 

I had practically no sleep last night, so yes, I am babbling;)

 

You never did address my point, which was "What I am confused about is how it has been interpreted to mean a buyer can take 30 days to pay. Or a seller can take 30 days to ship." That is not what it says and not what it means.

 

As far as your Spock-like "Isn't a shame that rules need to be made for the few, to help the many?", usually that is what rules are for: to address the few, as the many are usually reasonable folk who don't need to be guided by a rule set.

 

So I assume if we re-wrote the rules to state simply "Buyer has 30 days from "takeit" to pay and seller has 30 days to ship after payment received" folks would be OK with that?

[skypinkblu]

I was TRYING to answer , Michael...you ask why it is interpreted that way, it's because some people are going to interpret any rule the way it suits them. It SAYS 30 days to complete the transaction, so they interpret it as meaning THEIR part of the transaction, not the whole enchilada.

 

Does that make more sense? If you want the entire transaction both sides, completed within 30 days, then I guess you need to break it down more...

 

I'm not sure that we NEED that given how well it's worked...but that's how I would answer your question.

 

 

 

[PovertyRow]

I was TRYING to answer , Michael...you ask why it is interpreted that way, it's because some people are going to interpret any rule the way it suits them. It SAYS 30 days to complete the transaction, so they interpret it as meaning THEIR part of the transaction, not the whole enchilada.

 

Does that make more sense? If you want the entire transaction both sides, completed within 30 days, then I guess you need to break it down more...

 

I'm not sure that we NEED that given how well it's worked...but that's how I would answer your question.

 

 

 

"If a transaction between board members is not completed within 30 days" - I am not sure how much clearer that can be. But that is what this conversation is about, I guess.

 

As far as it is working goes, I am not sure how well. Many people post here asking how long they have to wait and the typical fast answer is "you have to wait the 30 days." So they do, assuming that is the rule. Were they expecting to have to wait 30 days to receive payment? Or 30 days from sending payment to receive their item(s)? Honestly, Shar, I don't know.

 

The possible interpretation you suggest is actually suggesting a 60 day time frame, as I mentioned earlier: 30 days to pay and 30 days to ship. Is that what we want?

[Bio-Rupp]

Probably easier for each individual OP state how long buyer has to pay in the rules of their individual threads.

 

Nocutename could state...

 

"- Whoever posts in my thread has two weeks to pay or I have the right to sell to someone else."

 

With this statement in full view, buyer cannot fall back on the "30 day rule"... as this quote from the OP would supersede that rule.

 

Given even a simple sentence like that one could be twisted and misinterpreted by whoever is reading it. "First in the thread wins item" couldn't be understood by some and I had to expand on what that meant to the Nth degree

 

Plus we've all had that one person wait three weeks to pay... then pay... then in less than 24 hours, PM asking for a tracking number.

 

How about this scenario... which isn't good business either... but if a buyer waits weeks to pay... then seller should be afforded the same slack and wait equal weeks to ship.

 

If the buyer isn't in a rush... why should the seller be. Again not a good practice... but I'd say more than an handful out there have done this to the slack buyer at one time or another.

 

No matter how its worded Pov... someone is going to find fault or loophole in it.

 

How about this..."Any board transaction between buyer and seller is FULLY EXPECTED to be completed by the end of 30 consecutive business days starting from the moment is placed in the thread."