eBay...FAIL!

[mrmitchgro]

Part of the problem is that they are not doing anything illegal - unethical, yes...., but illegal?

 

What they're doing is fraud - they're taking books they know to be restored and saying that "to their knowledge" they are unrestored. It's just not something that people outside the comic community would understand right away.

 

If you sold a CZ as a real diamond, they'd get busted right away... I see this as the same thing, but because more people are familiar with diamonds, it's thought of as more serious.

 

Am I off base here?

[lizards2]

Grading is just an opinion, and probably the same with resto - it appears that part of the time they are picking off the CT, so in effect, un-restoring them. Plenty of arguments about what constitutes resto on here too.

 

I'm not disagreeing that they are the lowliest form of scum, I'm just not sure what they could actually be charged with.

 

 

[Peter Loves Gwen]

It is fraud, they purposely sell items which they know are worth less than the way they are describing them. It's like lying about the condition of a car, its mileage etc, to defraud the buyer into paying more than it's worth.

 

That is fraud, and yes it's not easy to prove, especially in a unique industry like comics. But there is a consensus about grading, a system and a grading company which is trusted and generally involved in each of those sales.

[lizards2]

It is fraud, they purposely sell items which they know are worth less than the way they are describing them. It's like lying about the condition of a car, its mileage etc, to defraud the buyer into paying more than it's worth.

 

That is fraud, and yes it's not easy to prove, especially in a unique industry like comics. But there is a consensus about grading, a system and a grading company which is trusted and generally involved in each of those sales.

 

Sorry, but :: They are probably no worse than most of fleabay on their inaccurate grading and resto detection. There is no consensus on grading, a system, or a grading company...., at least, I don't trust them without a scan.

[Peter Loves Gwen]

Well the obvious minor differences aside(typical mistake or difference of opinion by you/me/CGC/dealers), those scammers are doing much more than being off in grade by a step or two, in both directions. They always describe conditions and grades much higher than they bought the books, several steps higher, and never lower. That in no logical way is typical or fair, or legal. Any sane judge or jury or investigator should see that clearly. Night,

[lizards2]

You see, that is the problem right there, "They suggest grades much higher."

 

I just want to see the actual criminal statute that a DA would charge them with. I think it needs to be better than, "They suggest grades much higher."

 

Again, I believe these guys are total scum, but I just don't make the connection on how you would get to these guys through the legal system.

 

[rtecbot]

Had one runin with Fluffy062 on a ASM122 still in the old blue cgc slab... hope there is nothing wrong with the book

===========================

Dear rtecbot,

Hi I am just reselling.

- fluffy062

 

Dear fluffy062,

So was there any main reason for selling off aelelarkin listing from last month or you just reselling?

- rtecbot

 

Dear rtecbot,

Hi the # 0061969005 thank you

- fluffy062

 

Dear fluffy062,

What is the cgc serial number of the book?

[thehumantorch]

Well the obvious minor differences aside(typical mistake or difference of opinion by you/me/CGC/dealers), those scammers are doing much more than being off in grade by a step or two, in both directions. They always describe conditions and grades much higher than they bought the books, several steps higher, and never lower. That in no logical way is typical or fair, or legal. Any sane judge or jury or investigator should see that clearly. Night,

 

As much as we all agree with you sane judges, investigators or jurys would not. We see threads here all the time disputing CGC's grade on books.

 

CGC's grade is just an opinion. Expert indeed but hardly the last or only word.

[KryptoSpidey]

Had one runin with Fluffy062 on a ASM122 still in the old blue cgc slab... hope there is nothing wrong with the book

===========================

Dear rtecbot,

Hi I am just reselling.

- fluffy062

 

Dear fluffy062,

So was there any main reason for selling off aelelarkin listing from last month or you just reselling?

- rtecbot

 

Dear rtecbot,

Hi the # 0061969005 thank you

- fluffy062

 

Dear fluffy062,

What is the cgc serial number of the book?

Did you get the book?

Fluffy's last Neg feedback before being Nru'd was for an "Epmty" box delivered for a $100+ baseball card win. r1970d returned a book with no tracking,and fluffy said they never got it back,yet admitted to me that they did scam people when i called them out on the incident.

I recieved a Sgt. Fury #12 set inside an "old pgx case" to give the package some weight.I had Won an ASM #20 PGX 9.0,that was originally a CGC 7.5,bought by "lexerific/aram321/cdpaoli" and resold to Fluffy,who got it Pgx graded.Then when i tried to stop the transaction before they mailed it out,I got a "scam" item in the mail...

Hope you at least recieved what you bought.

[passion4comics]

If you crack a comic and bump the grade up by a point it’s really not fraud; it’s an opinion. CGC has only an opinion. I’m not going to rehash the need for a quantitative structured process which in a court would be key to an expert testimony. Unless a court has recognized them as experts their credibility in a court is negligible. Anyone can claim that they are an expert. Unless there is an accepted criteria for all comic grading then saying a comic is an 8 is just as correct as saying it’s a 9.

 

Their problem is that they are knowingly opening a comic that has labeled as restored and selling it as unrestored. It’s possible that a comic was incorrectly marked as restored and their actions can be justified. The chances of this happening 20x per week are very unlikely.

 

If they cracked it and said nothing other than its apparent condition they would be ok. Once they make a claim, that’s where they cross the line. Will they get into trouble? Probably not. They refund money to people that figure it out so that limits people that will go to the police. Even if someone in Florida gets duped who are they going to complain to? The sellers state they are in California. I doubt that they are actually there and probably ship and receive through Florida. Are the police or Feds really going to chase down a few guys selling comics? Again it’s unlikely. Is EBay going to do anything about it? Probably not because they have claimed for years that they have nothing to do with the actions of buyer or sellers on their site.

 

Can they be sued? I would say no. 90% of a lawsuit is finding a lawyer. I’ve had dealings with more lawyers than I want to admit over the last 5 years and aside from a majority of them not even knowing their field of expertise finding an attorney that will take a case is like trying to shoot a basket from 100 feet. I had to file and represent myself in 2 major lawsuits over the last few years (not small claims) which I won. The other 3 involved attorneys and were a nightmare. What it came down to is me doing all of the work again and paying them a third plus hourly just to file the papers. My opinion on them getting sued is near zero! Even if it were an Xmen 1 sold for 50k and the buyer was screwed for 40k the chances of it ever seeing a court room or the buyer ever seeing his money again is nil. Filing in small claims means they would have to file in the sellers local court. Again, is it worth it?

 

They found themselves a little niche within Ebay and like every other area of collectibles buying is like skipping through a minefield.

 

[passion4comics]

You see, that is the problem right there, "They suggest grades much higher."

 

I just want to see the actual criminal statute that a DA would charge them with. I think it needs to be better than, "They suggest grades much higher."

 

Again, I believe these guys are total scum, but I just don't make the connection on how you would get to these guys through the legal system.

 

 

OK, who the hell are these guys?

[KryptoSpidey]

You see, that is the problem right there, "They suggest grades much higher."

 

I just want to see the actual criminal statute that a DA would charge them with. I think it needs to be better than, "They suggest grades much higher."

 

Again, I believe these guys are total scum, but I just don't make the connection on how you would get to these guys through the legal system.

 

 

OK, who the hell are these guys?

Thats them. Cdpaoli/lexerific/aram321/makemeanofferandwin....

[KryptoSpidey]

And one thing is for sure,they are in California,not Florida.

Several of us had sold to them in the beginning of this mess,before we had them blocked as buyers on Ebay,and i know i mailed to California.

 

[Remark]

If you crack a comic and bump the grade up by a point it’s really not fraud; it’s an opinion. CGC has only an opinion. I’m not going to rehash the need for a quantitative structured process which in a court would be key to an expert testimony. Unless a court has recognized them as experts their credibility in a court is negligible. Anyone can claim that they are an expert. Unless there is an accepted criteria for all comic grading then saying a comic is an 8 is just as correct as saying it’s a 9.

 

Their problem is that they are knowingly opening a comic that has labeled as restored and selling it as unrestored. It’s possible that a comic was incorrectly marked as restored and their actions can be justified. The chances of this happening 20x per week are very unlikely.

 

If they cracked it and said nothing other than its apparent condition they would be ok. Once they make a claim, that’s where they cross the line. Will they get into trouble? Probably not. They refund money to people that figure it out so that limits people that will go to the police. Even if someone in Florida gets duped who are they going to complain to? The sellers state they are in California. I doubt that they are actually there and probably ship and receive through Florida. Are the police or Feds really going to chase down a few guys selling comics? Again it’s unlikely. Is EBay going to do anything about it? Probably not because they have claimed for years that they have nothing to do with the actions of buyer or sellers on their site.

 

Can they be sued? I would say no. 90% of a lawsuit is finding a lawyer. I’ve had dealings with more lawyers than I want to admit over the last 5 years and aside from a majority of them not even knowing their field of expertise finding an attorney that will take a case is like trying to shoot a basket from 100 feet. I had to file and represent myself in 2 major lawsuits over the last few years (not small claims) which I won. The other 3 involved attorneys and were a nightmare. What it came down to is me doing all of the work again and paying them a third plus hourly just to file the papers. My opinion on them getting sued is near zero! Even if it were an Xmen 1 sold for 50k and the buyer was screwed for 40k the chances of it ever seeing a court room or the buyer ever seeing his money again is nil. Filing in small claims means they would have to file in the sellers local court. Again, is it worth it?

 

They found themselves a little niche within Ebay and like every other area of collectibles buying is like skipping through a minefield.

 

Now I know why they say, "The law is an ".Are there any attorneys out there who have some expertise in this area, at least for an opinion as to this being fraud?On the surface, it sure seems patently fraudulent to try to re-sell something that you know to be worth less among the circle of people who are your customers, ie.,restored books passing as unrestored. I do not know if a prosecutor would have a tough time qualifying an expert as to the value of any book, or whether he/she would have to first educate a potential jury about the difference in value between a restored book vs an unrestored one, but it seems to me no different than the example cited about diamonds and CZs. If one has to get into a defense of the value of an unrestored book, then one should also have to defend the value of a diamond and how DeBeers controls THAT market (I actually heard that repeated recently at an diamond store recently where the salesperson stated that they (the store) didn't set pricing- DeBeers did). CGC is in a similar position in that while they do not control supply, they are the industry standard by which comics are graded, and hence, valued. That seems the to me to be the primary argument that needs to be made.I agree with the statements regarding simple grading, where that really is a matter of opinion, even if you knowingly resell a CGC book as a higher grade, but the restored book scam should be a slam dunk, or am I missing something?

[supapimp]

the face of a eBay scammer

[KryptoSpidey]

dont forget his friend:

http://www.facebook.com/people/Narbeh-Harutunian/15103537#!/profile.php?id=15104392

and his fiance...i wonder what she knows,or will think once she finds out?

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=15104392#!/natalypaige

and this guy is involved..aram321?

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=15103537&ref=search#!/ayouss

[supapimp]

dont forget his friend:

http://www.facebook.com/people/Narbeh-Harutunian/15103537#!/profile.php?id=15104392

and his fiance...i wonder what she knows,or will think once she finds out?

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=15104392#!/natalypaige

and this guy is involved..aram321?

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=15103537&ref=search#!/ayouss

 

aww hells no! the last one is a USC alum, i put him in the same category as OJ simpson and maybe reggie bush. reggie you dumas, you should have paid back the $300K.

[rtecbot]

Took a while but got the ASM 122 and sent it off for CGC SS @ NYCC. Prepping for alot of surprises or and maybe some

[passion4comics]

You see, that is the problem right there, "They suggest grades much higher."

 

I just want to see the actual criminal statute that a DA would charge them with. I think it needs to be better than, "They suggest grades much higher."

 

Again, I believe these guys are total scum, but I just don't make the connection on how you would get to these guys through the legal system.

 

 

OK, who the hell are these guys?

Thats them. Cdpaoli/lexerific/aram321/makemeanofferandwin....

 

I have a feeling they'll like prison.

[passion4comics]

 

Now I know why they say, "The law is an ".Are there any attorneys out there who have some expertise in this area, at least for an opinion as to this being fraud?On the surface, it sure seems patently fraudulent to try to re-sell something that you know to be worth less among the circle of people who are your customers, ie.,restored books passing as unrestored. I do not know if a prosecutor would have a tough time qualifying an expert as to the value of any book, or whether he/she would have to first educate a potential jury about the difference in value between a restored book vs an unrestored one, but it seems to me no different than the example cited about diamonds and CZs. If one has to get into a defense of the value of an unrestored book, then one should also have to defend the value of a diamond and how DeBeers controls THAT market (I actually heard that repeated recently at an diamond store recently where the salesperson stated that they (the store) didn't set pricing- DeBeers did). CGC is in a similar position in that while they do not control supply, they are the industry standard by which comics are graded, and hence, valued. That seems the to me to be the primary argument that needs to be made.I agree with the statements regarding simple grading, where that really is a matter of opinion, even if you knowingly resell a CGC book as a higher grade, but the restored book scam should be a slam dunk, or am I missing something?

 

CGC is the authority to you and maybe board members here. Maybe PGX will grade it at a higher grade. I don't think it's about over-grading these books. It's about the intentional misrepresentation of restored books.

 

A typical criminal complaint goes like this: The police file an incident report. It could be handed to a detective that knows something about this area. It then goes through the system and lands an an ADAs desk. The ADA decides if there is enough to get an indictment on and if it's worth the time. Remember at any time this complaint can be, what we called when I was a cop, SIHT-Canned. If it gets as far as a Grand Jury it's an almost guaranteed indictment. In real life an ADA can indict a cat for barking. Now their lawyers and the ADA go back and forth to almost guarantee it never sees a courtroom. They would have to agree to restitution and get a slap on the wrist. This is how the court systems work. Once you're in it, it sucks. As long as you have the money to pay your attorney and are dealing with non-violent crimes you're not going to go to jail unless you really pissed someone off. Do you see all of this unfolding for a few hundred dollar scam? I don't.

 

Educating a jury would be a tough job. Walk up to an average 70 year old man and tell him you just paid $1500 for a comic book. He'll look at you and probably mention that bridge they have for sale in Brooklyn. The idea of the case would be fraud, but you need 100% of the jury agreeing for a conviction. There will be some people on that jury having trouble processing the idea that a 10 cent comic sold for $2000 when it was only worth $1000, but it says 10 cents.

 

I think the DeBeers issues are with unfair competition and price fixing. You can't price fix. It happened with gas stations a while back. They were setting all of their prices a few cents higher and were caught.