CV Comic Verification - a new layer to the encapsulation process

[drbanner]

Actually NGC (the coin side of Collectors Society) has a similar kind of designation for coins they have graded that have outstanding eye appeal. It is called the Star Designation, with a star added to the grade. If NGC is doing it the door is certainly open for CGC to follow suit, should they decide it is viable.

 

"It is apparent that some coins of a particular grade are far more attractive than others of the same grade. That, in a nutshell, is the idea behind NGC’s star designation. NGC defines its star designated coins as those that have exceptional eye appeal."

 

Here is an example. Note the star next to the grade.

 

 

The coin grading makes sense. We can see both sides of the coin, and grading does not apply to the *inside* of the coin. The fact that there are so many other factors to grading a book - that only CGC knows about, since they are the last party to handle the book before encapsulation - makes the CVA sticker worthless on several levels, but also pretty needless since they do nothing other than offer an opinion on a cursory inspection for a fee.

 

Actually, not knowing the "grade" if the interior is not a problem as the star has nothing to do with the grade (and in turn, the potential for a CPR upgrade), and everything to do with how pretty the book looks. The CVA implementation of what NGC is doing is not going to work and is pretty useless based on miswrapped books they stickered last month and the fact that they seem to imply that the sticker does have something to do with the potential for an upgrade. CGC is the entity that needs to (and should) do this...I think once they get caught up and submissions dwindle, or they need additional revenue, they will start offering this service.

 

Nice coin Pov!

[PovertyRow]

Actually NGC (the coin side of Collectors Society) has a similar kind of designation for coins they have graded that have outstanding eye appeal. It is called the Star Designation, with a star added to the grade. If NGC is doing it the door is certainly open for CGC to follow suit, should they decide it is viable.

 

"It is apparent that some coins of a particular grade are far more attractive than others of the same grade. That, in a nutshell, is the idea behind NGC’s star designation. NGC defines its star designated coins as those that have exceptional eye appeal."

 

Here is an example. Note the star next to the grade.

 

 

The coin grading makes sense. We can see both sides of the coin, and grading does not apply to the *inside* of the coin. The fact that there are so many other factors to grading a book - that only CGC knows about, since they are the last party to handle the book before encapsulation - makes the CVA sticker worthless on several levels, but also pretty needless since they do nothing other than offer an opinion on a cursory inspection for a fee.

 

I was specifically addressing the concept that Hulksmash brought up when he asked "And why can't CGC just do this themselves, and make some easy additional $$ ?" and Sufunk said it would not be viable for CGC..

 

CGC would be, as you point out, the last ones to know the insides of the book and thus the only ones in the position to make a kind of Star Designation on a slabbed comic.

 

This was brought up before year or so and I brought up similar objections with a non-CGC CAC type service.

[Dr. Balls]

I think CGC offering a certification of a book being "potentially" upgradeable is a huge conflict of interest. Something like that could single-handedly derail the confidence consumers have in a company. I'm not interested in having a book graded by a company who's revenue stream includes upselling the potential for a better grade. The objectivity and trust is gone at that point.

 

What is to stop them from undergrading my book? What is to stop me from thinking they are undergrading books? Nothing but perception - and if a service like that were to come about - the perception of that company's ethics is down the tube.

[PovertyRow]

 

Nice coin Pov!

 

It IS a nice coin but it isn;t mine. I just wanted to find an example of the Star Designation to show.

[PovertyRow]

I think CGC offering a certification of a book being "potentially" upgradeable is a huge conflict of interest. Something like that could single-handedly derail the confidence consumers have in a company. I'm not interested in having a book graded by a company who's revenue stream includes upselling the potential for a better grade. The objectivity and trust is gone at that point.

 

What is to stop them from undergrading my book? What is to stop me from thinking they are undergrading books? Nothing but perception - and if a service like that were to come about - the perception of that company's ethics is down the tube.

 

Again, my response is not in defense of the concept. It is to illustrate that the door has already been opened by NGC. The Star Designation has not seemed to hurt NGC's reputation and the coins with that Star often command premiums and are seen as desirable by many collectors.

 

When CGC was introduced there was a certainly resistance but acceptance did come. I see a possibility of a similar resistance/acceptance if CGC followed NGC's example.

 

The truth is that, as has been said, grading is more a technical/structural thing than an aesthetic thing. One can have two 9.8 books. One perfectly centered and one with a minor miswrap. Structurally they are identical. Aesthetically the perfectly centered book has more eye appeal.

 

But I think it is needless to have a special designation for something like that. Simply looking at the book would reveal the difference. As far as internal differences, that is where grader notes can come in handy. They should never have been removed form the label.

 

 

[Cyclops]

 

 

http://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2FAuctions%2Fdefault.asp%3FFocused%3D1%23Item_952947&id=952947

[zuckuss2003]

 

 

http://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2FAuctions%2Fdefault.asp%3FFocused%3D1%23Item_952947&id=952947

My eyes are still pretty good. That looks like a nice book. If only there was a way someone could pay more to verify for me it looks like a nice book...

[RedGiant]

Was looking at the January CLink Focused Auction listing and saw these stickers. Thought, what are they, why, and I'm sure they are talking about them over in comics general, so here I am. I'm not about to read 111 pages of posts, but it appears that generally speaking the board agrees this is ridiculous. If you can't tell eye appeal, why are you buying expensive books in the first place? This may be mixed somewhere in the 111 pages, but I tend to dabble in sports cards beyond comic books. There are a number of trading card grading companies, I tend to stick with PSA for graded cards, a simple number (1-10). Some of these other companies break it down into multiple categories, like centering, corners, edges, surface and break things down into half points. Now that is detail. Which brings up a good point. Many people (myself included), like to buy the book, not the label. It appears a number of factors are not accounted for in the overall grade of CGC. I think CVA is trying to fill that void, I don't think they are going about it in the right way, but regardless, it appears that might be what they are trying to do? Much like sports cards, for comics I enjoy the simple 1-10 scale, with page quality designation and random notes. However, I'm guessing there is a market out there for more specifics. I wonder why PGX doesn't try to distinguish themselves by using a different (more detailed) scale OR a new competitor come along and try it? I personally would stick with CGC, but I'm guessing there is a market out there for a more detailed label. Too bad CVA isn't the answer IMHO.

[sterlingcomics]

In theory I understand the problem CVA is trying to solve---the fact that CGC stresses structural grade and doesn't necessarily factor in aesthetics. Unfortunately with the examples we've seen neither did CVA.

[joe_collector]

Interesting idea, and while I firmly believe that true high-grade/high-production quality books need to be broken out, I still feel this should have been part of the CGC doctrine from the start.

 

A CGC 9.6 with high Visual/Production Quality could be given a special designation (a Star, Sticker, etc.) that breaks it out from the pack, but we all know why that didn't happen (straight from CGC) as the member firm dealers didn't want their freakshow 9.X books being looked down upon and failing to get top dollar at auction.

 

But nature abhors a vacuum and I think a service like this is really useful at the top-end of the market, where there might be a few 9.6-9.8 books, and if only one has a CV designation, then it could be viewed as the best of the bunch in terms of visual appeal.

 

After all, isn't that why the Church books are so sought after? Not just the grade, which might be shared or even exceeded by other books, but their exceptional preservation, true colors and visual appeal?

[joe_collector]

Much like sports cards, for comics I enjoy the simple 1-10 scale, with page quality designation and random notes.

 

Huh? Sports card grading fully takes into account production quality, visual appeal, etc. and no matter how well preserved the card is, the top grades are unattainable unless you have almost perfect centering, color strike, etc.

[bb8]

Holy schnikies. I joined this forum recently (as you can see from my profile blurb) and saw a few comments about the CVA sticker. I honestly thought this was a joke. I think the utter preposterousness of this idea calls for a thread bump. I am aghast and in disbelief.

 

That said, they'll probably find a nice market niche and make millions. Cause people are S-M-R-T (thumbs u

[mschmidt]

Interesting idea, and while I firmly believe that true high-grade/high-production quality books need to be broken out, I still feel this should have been part of the CGC doctrine from the start.

 

A CGC 9.6 with high Visual/Production Quality could be given a special designation (a Star, Sticker, etc.) that breaks it out from the pack, but we all know why that didn't happen (straight from CGC) as the member firm dealers didn't want their freakshow 9.X books being looked down upon and failing to get top dollar at auction.

 

But nature abhors a vacuum and I think a service like this is really useful at the top-end of the market, where there might be a few 9.6-9.8 books, and if only one has a CV designation, then it could be viewed as the best of the bunch in terms of visual appeal.

 

After all, isn't that why the Church books are so sought after? Not just the grade, which might be shared or even exceeded by other books, but their exceptional preservation, true colors and visual appeal?

 

JC

 

I think the big difference is that if CGC was doing this it would happen as part of the grading process and the CGC graders would have all the information needed about the book to make the "exceptional or not" call. The CVA people, however, merely look at the book whilst it's still inside the slab with no consideration for any defects that aren't immediately visible on the front & back and that's, well, lame.

[BeachBum]

Interesting idea, and while I firmly believe that true high-grade/high-production quality books need to be broken out, I still feel this should have been part of the CGC doctrine from the start.

 

A CGC 9.6 with high Visual/Production Quality could be given a special designation (a Star, Sticker, etc.) that breaks it out from the pack, but we all know why that didn't happen (straight from CGC) as the member firm dealers didn't want their freakshow 9.X books being looked down upon and failing to get top dollar at auction.

 

But nature abhors a vacuum and I think a service like this is really useful at the top-end of the market, where there might be a few 9.6-9.8 books, and if only one has a CV designation, then it could be viewed as the best of the bunch in terms of visual appeal.

 

After all, isn't that why the Church books are so sought after? Not just the grade, which might be shared or even exceeded by other books, but their exceptional preservation, true colors and visual appeal?

 

JC

 

I think the big difference is that if CGC was doing this it would happen as part of the grading process and the CGC graders would have all the information needed about the book to make the "exceptional or not" call. The CVA people, however, merely look at the book whilst it's still inside the slab with no consideration for any defects that aren't immediately visible on the front & back and that's, well, lame.

 

Beachbum Comics will be offering a similar service shortly. You can send me the book and I will personally have Chuck Norris look it over. You will then get a personalized picture from Mr. Norris letting you know much more awesome or less awesome your already graded book is.

 

[Tsimanga]

Interesting idea, and while I firmly believe that true high-grade/high-production quality books need to be broken out, I still feel this should have been part of the CGC doctrine from the start.

 

A CGC 9.6 with high Visual/Production Quality could be given a special designation (a Star, Sticker, etc.) that breaks it out from the pack, but we all know why that didn't happen (straight from CGC) as the member firm dealers didn't want their freakshow 9.X books being looked down upon and failing to get top dollar at auction.

 

But nature abhors a vacuum and I think a service like this is really useful at the top-end of the market, where there might be a few 9.6-9.8 books, and if only one has a CV designation, then it could be viewed as the best of the bunch in terms of visual appeal.

 

After all, isn't that why the Church books are so sought after? Not just the grade, which might be shared or even exceeded by other books, but their exceptional preservation, true colors and visual appeal?

 

JC

 

I think the big difference is that if CGC was doing this it would happen as part of the grading process and the CGC graders would have all the information needed about the book to make the "exceptional or not" call. The CVA people, however, merely look at the book whilst it's still inside the slab with no consideration for any defects that aren't immediately visible on the front & back and that's, well, lame.

 

 

I see a number of books in the current COMICLINK auction with the CVA label... CGC and the whole slab my nation has turned into a joke to me over the past few years.

[Dr. Balls]

Bump because I need to reference this thread in it's entirety.

[MatterEaterLad]

I think this is a perversely great idea.

 

High-end collectors will always be looking for THE best book, or at least a level of uniqueness that separates their books from the rest (like pedigrees, collection provenance, etc). If there are two FF#1 9.6s in the CGC Census and one ends up with a CVA Gold and the other a CVA Silver, then the comic world would have an outside opinion (not just the auction house or owner of the book) as to which is better. Or maybe they're both the same. But at that top level it can be a tool to separate THE best from the best.

 

It seems like a useful tool if more people use it, but only for high end books. For everything else it's basically paying someone and hoping that they'll sprinkle glitter on your book so you'll get more attention in an auction.

[DrWatson]

Like someone mentioned earlier, it's a great tool for the blind.

[batman_fan]

I think this is a perversely great idea.

 

High-end collectors will always be looking for THE best book, or at least a level of uniqueness that separates their books from the rest (like pedigrees, collection provenance, etc). If there are two FF#1 9.6s in the CGC Census and one ends up with a CVA Gold and the other a CVA Silver, then the comic world would have an outside opinion (not just the auction house or owner of the book) as to which is better. Or maybe they're both the same. But at that top level it can be a tool to separate THE best from the best.

 

It seems like a useful tool if more people use it, but only for high end books. For everything else it's basically paying someone and hoping that they'll sprinkle glitter on your book so you'll get more attention in an auction.

 

How can they do that? are they going to demand everyone to send in their FF#1 in 9.6 so they can say which one looks best?

[MatterEaterLad]

How can they do that? are they going to demand everyone to send in their FF#1 in 9.6 so they can say which one looks best?

 

They don't have to. If you own one of those books you're a whale of a collector. One of those 9.6s changed hands in 2008 for $450,000. If you're spending half a million on a single book you probably wouldn't have a problem spending the $3k or whatever the max grading price is to know if your book is better than the other 9.6. If I owned one I'd roll those dice in a heartbeat.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think that paying people to judge a book by its cover is ridiculous, but at some level it makes sense. (Even if it's just validating what we all know...that there is a variance in CGCs grading).