What does PRESSING IT OUT mean exactly?

[comicwiz]

My question must have gotten buried in the flurry of responses this thread is receiving -

 

Are there any chemicals used in the pressing process? If so, have they been studied for possible long-term detrimental effects on comic books?

 

 

 

 

-slym

 

No.

 

Pressing is a combination of pressure, temperature, humidity and time.

 

What about release paper? Wasn't Comicwiz talking about possibly detecting pressed books by the chemical (?) residue left by the release paper?

 

Someone was talking about the future possibility of detecting embedded silicone from the release paper. I don't remember if it was Comicwiz.

 

This is the original post, and around the time I first began researching a wide range of spectroscopic techniques. I eventually elaborated on it further a few years later here, but I really don't know if it was ever brought up by anyone else before. The interest was sparked through an unrelated reading of a research study regarding the detection of silica with respect to occupational hazards and impacts on human health.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

 

Sorry Gene, its not preposterous at all. Even before I resold a single book, back when I was a pure collector, I would in fact buy 1-2k book collections, even if there was only a handful of books I wanted for myself. The rest of the stuff would either sit in my garage or get traded off to another collector in time. I get that you would prefer to pay a dealer for the convenience of having done the work for you, because as you said your time is valuable to you, but let's be honest, not everyone does.

 

This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever come across in my time on the boards.

 

Unlikely, but I admire your flair for hyperbole. I can certainly recount several thousand more "ridiculous things", but hey....

 

How many non dealer hobbyists have the connections to get to OO collections before full time dealers?

 

OO collections aren't just about having connections, though I'm sure it helps. Pre-internet days, when I was back in LA, the Recycler was a great way to find them. Craigslist has the same effect, though now they are more Bronze/Copper then anything else. The reality is, though, OO Silver collections are harder and harder to find, and when they do surface, they likely are purchased by established dealers who are capable of paying the most, or auction houses that can promise the biggest return.

 

How many non dealer hobbyists have the spare cash to pay for an OO collection?

 

Really don't see what that has to do with anything. If you are playing in the high end Silver Age market, you should have the $$$ to play the game. That was true though before Pressing ever became widespread. I've delved into savings and credit cards in the past when I had a great opportunity present itself...again, its not for everyone, but it can be done.

 

How many non dealer hobbyists have the time to go looking for OO collections when they may already have a full time job and family?

 

Quite a few that I know. Again, no one is saying its easy or convenient, but it can be done.

 

How many non dealer hobbyists have the time or experience to sell off the excess books from collections?

 

I don't know the answer to this, but again, speaking only from personal experience, I know it can be done. YMMV.

 

Most people who are just buying comics for a hobby don't have the time, money, connections or experience to go sourcing these kinds of books, especially when there are full time dealers to compete with as well as the option of auction houses for sellers to go to. That's without considering that in the UK, these collections are for all intents and purposes non existent so Nick and I were screwed before we started.

 

That's all very valid, and true, but the money and time aspect is all relative to the individual. Some can do it, some cannot, but that's also true of affording a nice FF # 1.....some folks can, some can't, and that's been true ever since the book started commanding north of $100 (early 70s?). I certainly don't have a great answer as to how to locate OO collections of vintage US-edition comics when you are overseas, short of building a network or dealers and collectors that you trust. I'm sure if I started collecting vintage British pub memorabilia, I would run into many of the same obstacles.

[RockMyAmadeus]

[joeypost]

Wow. This should be stickied so it doesn't get lost.

 

Any thoughts on other 'non-additive' controversies? Disassembly and such?

 

I take some issue with the notion that "Pressing, without a doubt, makes pretty books." To me, it creates a lot of books that look unnaturally flat. I remember buying books off the racks back in the day, and by virtue of the way they were standing up, they were never perfectly flat. Others have told me about how pressing sometimes leads to greater translucency and or leaves subtle transfer stains. Some of the biggest pressers around readily tell me that they can almost always tell when a book has been pressed. Who started this fiction that you can't tell? I'll tell you who: pressers. Maybe you can't tell 100% of the time, but most of the time you can.

 

I remember back when Ewert was selling unnaturally squashed books on eBay back in maybe 2003 and me and Joe Collector were calling the books out for all being pressed. Because they all obviously were. You remember what people said back then? "No way could one man be pressing that many books, and why would he? Consider the time, cost and risks involved." Now we know that it takes minimal time, minimal cost and minimal risk to press a book. I hate to say "I told you so", but...I told you so.

 

Another great fiction was, "Pressing can only improve certain defects, so only certain books will be pressed." WRONG!!! I was just IM-ing two nights ago with a friend of mine who is a big presser. He told me he got a great looking copy of a certain DC key. He told me that it didn't have any defects he could see that could be improved by pressing. You know what I said? "BUT, YOU'RE GOING TO PRESS IT ANYWAY, RIGHT? BECAUSE THERE'S NO DOWNSIDE TO FRESHENING IT UP A LITTLE BIT." And his answer, even though he told me it was probably unimproveable? "OF COURSE".

 

Of course, pressing was just the gateway drug into further shenanigans - microtrimming, staple popping, solvent cleaning, spine realignment, etc. Remember when popping out staples was taboo? Now they're popped out all the time. Who cares if this spine realignment technique can be done without removing the staples. Do you think it actually is? I mean, there's no downside to popping out the staples, everybody does it, so why wouldn't they do it? And some of the before-and-after book scans that have been posted recently show clear evidence of solvent-based cleaning. You think these stains are being Wonder Breaded away (especially now that Hostess is in bankruptcy, )? I'm told by those in the know that cleaning with naphtha is now a common practice.

 

I'm sorry, but "disclosure" was always a big farce. All it takes is one person to buy a book and CPR (crack-press-resub) it for all the book's history and disclosure to be wiped away if someone chose to do so (as they inevitably would). If I was a CPR hustler, of course I'd say I support disclosure, knowing how easy it would be to circumvent the rules.

 

I used to marvel at old books in great condition that had survived the ravages of time. That's what made Pedigree-quality finds so special. Now any book can roll back time with a little naphtha Botox treatment and some time in the Pressing sauna. Even pedigree books are pressed as a matter of course. I guess those Gaines File Copies grading 9.6 just weren't pretty enough; let's see if we can get a 9.8! The magic is totally and utterly gone for me and others. No book impresses me anymore, because I know virtually every exceptional book has been worked on, even if it was allegedly "unimproveable". There is no downside. No one wants to take a chance they're leaving 0.2 of a grade on the table and all the money that means. FACT.

 

There is no rolling back time. The horse has left the barn and run the Kentucky Derby, there's no getting it back in; Pandora's Box has been open for a good decade (and yeah, people pressed books back in the day, but more books are probably pressed in a month or two these days than they were in the first 40 years of this hobby). Unfortunately, the hobby is what the hobby is. There's no going back. You all got the hobby you deserve. Congratulations.

 

Superb stuff, Gene.

 

I bought my first comic in 1969 and started collecting in 1973. Roll forward thirty-five years to 2008 and I completely stopped and sold everything, because as you say above, 'the magic was gone', stripped away by greed and vanity.

 

People wonder why I remain fiercely vocal about 'manipulation' and the associated shenanigans and fraud.

 

Because you robbed me of a hobby that I loved - and I had zero say in the matter. Cheers!

[joeypost]

Serious question. How do you feel about the unmanipulated books you sell as a dealer to people you know to have books pressed?

 

Not exactly happy, but there's a difference between stopping collecting and having to find something else to fill in your spare time, or stopping selling to them and having no food on the table.

 

So it's cool to profit off of guys who will press the books you sell them, but not cool for them to do the actual pressing. Got it. What if they need food on the table too? Destroying the hobby would get much harder if people would stop selling to known pressers, wouldn't it?

 

I sell under-graded, unmanipulated raw books to pressers, who turn my 8.5s into 9.6s...and I'm the profiteer?

 

It's not profitable? So you don't make money, and you sell to pressers who wreck the books and destroyed your love of high grade anyway? That's your argument?

 

I deserve to make a profit because of the amount of hard work I put in, because of the years of good deals I've made to build a rep, because of the transparency I bring to my dealings.

 

Now this is amusing. Are you the ultimate one to determine who is allowed to make profits, and how much, and in what way? My goodness.

 

Could somebody please point out where I said that pressers were evil and didn't deserve to make a profit?

 

This all started because I stated why I left collecting.

 

End of.

 

I have not accused pressers of being immoral, or being unworthy of earning a living.

 

I said that pressing had taken the magic away from collecting for me - so I stopped.

 

I seem to remember words like greedy and unethical being thrown around.

 

Link?

 

You're in it.

[skypinkblu]

I'm going to try to put this another way.

 

How would you, or any "you" feel about color touch if someone found a way to make it more difficult to detect, or glue? That can happen, just like it seems to have happened with this absorene stuff..

 

I think all of these things, color touch, pressing, cleaning, glue are a form of restoration. I have some really nice restored comics. Sensation 1, Wonder Woman 1, Green Lantern 1 (the GA one) etc...but I paid less for them than one that has no restoration, and I knew what was done to them.

 

[fantastic_four]

How would you, or any "you" feel about color touch if someone found a way to make it more difficult to detect, or glue? That can happen, just like it seems to have happened with this absorene stuff..

 

If color touch were undetectable, the high end part of the hobby would go to complete hell. It'd be too easy to take a 6.0 and make it a 9.x, so there would be no faith in grade anymore. High grade comics would still have value, just significantly less than they often do today.

[comicwiz]

Of course, pressing was just the gateway drug into further shenanigans - microtrimming, staple popping, solvent cleaning, spine realignment, etc. Remember when popping out staples was taboo?

 

Allowing staple replacement in a blue holder was the gateway drug. It just continued pushing every known technique of cooking books to the edge, and turned CGC into the test kitchen for figuring out what could get through and what didn't.

[Logan510]

I'm going to try to put this another way.

 

How would you, or any "you" feel about color touch if someone found a way to make it more difficult to detect, or glue? That can happen, just like it seems to have happened with this absorene stuff..

 

I think all of these things, color touch, pressing, cleaning, glue are a form of restoration. I have some really nice restored comics. Sensation 1, Wonder Woman 1, Green Lantern 1 (the GA one) etc...but I paid less for them than one that has no restoration, and I knew what was done to them.

 

Sure, I'd like to know if I was buying a restored book and would hope the seller would disclose it if I couldn't detect it. I don't consider pressing restoration so it wouldn't personally bother me if the book was pressed or not.

[skypinkblu]

How would you, or any "you" feel about color touch if someone found a way to make it more difficult to detect, or glue? That can happen, just like it seems to have happened with this absorene stuff..

 

If color touch were undetectable, the high end part of the hobby would go to complete hell. It'd be too easy to take a 6.0 and make it a 9.x, so there would be no faith in grade anymore. High grade comics would still have value, just significantly less than they often do today.

 

Well, you just nailed part of the way I feel about cleaning and pressing. Because it IS obviously easy to raise the grades.

[fantastic_four]

How would you, or any "you" feel about color touch if someone found a way to make it more difficult to detect, or glue? That can happen, just like it seems to have happened with this absorene stuff..

 

If color touch were undetectable, the high end part of the hobby would go to complete hell. It'd be too easy to take a 6.0 and make it a 9.x, so there would be no faith in grade anymore. High grade comics would still have value, just significantly less than they often do today.

 

Well, you just nailed part of the way I feel about cleaning and pressing. Because it IS obviously easy to raise the grades.

 

Nowhere close to as easy--night and day. Color touch can transform virtually any comic, but pressing only gives a slight bump to a percentage of books. The idea that any book is a pressing candidate is a myth, but almost every book is a color touch candidate. Color touch can easily raise a book by many grades, whereas pressing almost always results in a notch or two bump only on the right books.

[originalisbest]

I'm going to try to put this another way.

 

How would you, or any "you" feel about color touch if someone found a way to make it more difficult to detect, or glue? That can happen, just like it seems to have happened with this absorene stuff..

 

I think all of these things, color touch, pressing, cleaning, glue are a form of restoration. I have some really nice restored comics. Sensation 1, Wonder Woman 1, Green Lantern 1 (the GA one) etc...but I paid less for them than one that has no restoration, and I knew what was done to them.

 

Wrong-o-rama. CT and glue: detectable. Pressing: Not, unless it's a bad press job. The former are forms of resto (and I don't care for restored books) -- pressing is not. Some books in my collection have been pressed, others have not (at least by me, they may have been, for all I know, by others.) And I don't consider any of them to have been restored.

 

I like the way Roy put it out there in his sales threads: assume all books have been pressed. That way, those who hate pressing with a passion can avoid. Those who don't mind, can then decide if the price is right to them for the assigned grade. A good and appropriate press job, to me, makes a book more desirable. I can think of one in particular that I need to have pressed by Joe or Matt eventually, that suffered some water rippling in the cover during its life, but happily didn't get stains. It'll be much prettier and more desirable after a professional press.

[skypinkblu]

How would you, or any "you" feel about color touch if someone found a way to make it more difficult to detect, or glue? That can happen, just like it seems to have happened with this absorene stuff..

 

If color touch were undetectable, the high end part of the hobby would go to complete hell. It'd be too easy to take a 6.0 and make it a 9.x, so there would be no faith in grade anymore. High grade comics would still have value, just significantly less than they often do today.

 

Well, you just nailed part of the way I feel about cleaning and pressing. Because it IS obviously easy to raise the grades.

 

Nowhere close to as easy--night and day. Color touch can transform virtually any comic, but pressing only gives a slight bump to a percentage of books. The idea that any book is a pressing candidate is a myth, but almost every book is a color touch candidate. Color touch can easily raise a book by many grades, whereas pressing almost always results in a notch or two bump only on the right books.

 

I guess to me, that going from a 7.5 to a 9.2 is a big bump...but if anyone has been following the miraculous work that Kenny has been doing with leaf casting and color has to know that although he's clearly talented and ahead of his times, there will be others down the road.

 

I can't imagine that the time where spine lines or other creases can be filled and colored with exact matching is far away, heck I can match my old faded wall paint exactly with the computer in the paint store, and I have!

 

[skypinkblu]

I see many sides here.

 

. People who dislike any kind of restoration and feel pressing is restoration.

 

People who don't think pressing is restoration

 

People who don't care as long as they get the numbers on their books.

 

and people who think it MIGHT be something, but they don't want the values of the books they are selling to be impacted.

 

I'm sure I've missed a few...in any case, I'm going out...have fun:)

[fantastic_four]

The former are forms of resto (and I don't care for restored books) -- pressing is not.

 

Limiting the definition of restoration to only techniques that add or subtract from a book is not standard and highly controversial. Most popular dictionary definitions do not include those criteria. Susan Ciconni presses and restores comics for a living and has publicly stated and written she thinks pressing meets the definition of restoration.

 

Restoration is a fairly simple concept--you're returning something to a previous state. Heat pressing does this, so very simply, it's restoration. The most common reason I believe people resist this definition is they think it attaches a stigma to a comic that they don't attach themselves, so they resist the language in an effort to resist the stigma. People are going to think what they're going to think either way, so redefinining the popular definition of restoration seems like wasted effort.

[joeypost]

The former are forms of resto (and I don't care for restored books) -- pressing is not.

 

Limiting the definition of restoration to only techniques that add or subtract from a book is not standard and highly controversial. Most popular dictionary definitions do not include those criteria. Susan Ciconni presses and restores comics for a living and has publicly stated and written she thinks it meets the definition of restoration.

 

Restoration is a fairly simple concept--you're returning something to a previous state. Heat pressing does this, so very simply, it's restoration. The most common reason I believe people resist this definition is they think it attaches a stigma to a comic that they don't attach themselves, so they resist the language in an effort to resist the stigma. People are going to think what they're going to think either way, so redefinining the popular definition of restoration seems like wasted effort.

 

Will a book trim itself over time?

Will CT form over time?

Will staples replace themselves over time?

Will missing pieces knit themselves back together over time?

 

Will a non-color breaking bend go away in time if the book is stored properly?

[fantastic_four]

I can't imagine that the time where spine lines or other creases can be filled and colored with exact matching is far away, heck I can match my old faded wall paint exactly with the computer in the paint store, and I have!

 

It's technologically feasible, but there's a wide gulf between what's possible and what's practical. The reason you're able to match your paint is because millions of people buy paint every year and a significant number of them need matching services. Further, it's not just color-matching that's the issue, it's also the quality of the ink. Reproducing ink used on comics in the 60s is next to impossible, and there's virtually no market for it. There is no supplier of old printing inks for restorers to go to.

[originalisbest]

I can't imagine that the time where spine lines or other creases can be filled and colored with exact matching is far away, heck I can match my old faded wall paint exactly with the computer in the paint store, and I have!

 

It's technologically feasible, but there's a wide gulf between what's possible and what's practical. The reason you're able to match your paint is because millions of people buy paint every year and a significant number of them need matching services. Further, it's not just color-matching that's the issue, it's also the quality of the ink. Reproducing ink used on comics in the 60s is next to impossible, and there's virtually no market for it. There is no supplier of old printing inks for restorers to go to.

 

And, uh, there's also the issue of replacing broken paper fibers on a crease, getting a fresh coating of sizing immaculately placed over the repair, and laying down color in the exact dot matrix pattern so that it can't be detected by someone looking with even a medium (let alone high) powered magnifier?

 

So yeah, CT is going to be detectable for the forseeable future, when you examine a book in person. I grant you it may be hard to detect via a scan.

[originalisbest]

The former are forms of resto (and I don't care for restored books) -- pressing is not.

 

Limiting the definition of restoration to only techniques that add or subtract from a book is not standard and highly controversial. Most popular dictionary definitions do not include those criteria. Susan Ciconni presses and restores comics for a living and has publicly stated and written she thinks it meets the definition of restoration.

 

Restoration is a fairly simple concept--you're returning something to a previous state. Heat pressing does this, so very simply, it's restoration. The most common reason I believe people resist this definition is they think it attaches a stigma to a comic that they don't attach themselves, so they resist the language in an effort to resist the stigma. People are going to think what they're going to think either way, so redefinining the popular definition of restoration seems like wasted effort.

 

Will a book trim itself over time?

Will CT form over time?

Will staples replace themselves over time?

Will missing pieces knit themselves back together over time?

 

Will a non-color breaking bend go away in time if the book is stored properly?

 

This from Joey.

[originalisbest]

I see many sides here.

 

. People who dislike any kind of restoration and feel pressing is restoration.

 

People who don't think pressing is restoration

 

People who don't care as long as they get the numbers on their books.

 

and people who think it MIGHT be something, but they don't want the values of the books they are selling to be impacted.

 

I'm sure I've missed a few...in any case, I'm going out...have fun:)

 

I can say without fear of being wrong that pretty much sums it up well.