A-level panel page valuations by artist/run - thoughts/additions/changes? 5 5

[Nexus]

I don't know anyone with a lot of Leach MM art. You have two pages, I have a page and a cover, not sure who else owns anything, but I doubt anyone has more than 2-3 examples. I just think MM is as good or better than anything else Moore did during the 80s, and it's about time that the series moved up to the same level as V and Watchmen, and personally I think issue 15 will ultimately command the respect (and prices) of KJ pages. Eventually, KJ, MM 15, ST 21, and Watchmen 4 (in my humble opinion) will go down as the 4 best single issues he ever did, and prices will be commensurate with that title. You heard it from me first, guys!

 

I was referring to early bidding, in general. It's pointless, to me, unless it's thrill-bidding, or protecting a market. I don't believe anyone who bids this early in the process is genuinely bidding to win.

 

I love MM, too (although I don't rate it quite as highly as you). I agree that #15 is an important issue. But as an OA collector, the "money" pages are a bit too gruesome for me. Like the Barbara Gordon torture pages in KJ...no thanks. I'd take your great Leach page over those (and I say that as a big fan of Totleben). Regardless, very happy MM has a second life!

[blowout]

personally I think issue 15 will ultimately command the respect (and prices) of KJ pages. Eventually, KJ, MM 15, ST 21, and Watchmen 4 (in my humble opinion) will go down as the 4 best single issues he ever did, and prices will be commensurate with that title. You heard it from me first, guys!

 

That is extremely unlikely to happen.

 

Killing Joke is a story containing Batman and the Joker, two of the most iconic figures in comic book history. Miracleman 15 is a story containing...

 

...well you get my point.

[drdroom]

Question for Miracleman guys: is the Heritage page an A page?

[heartened]

personally I think issue 15 will ultimately command the respect (and prices) of KJ pages. Eventually, KJ, MM 15, ST 21, and Watchmen 4 (in my humble opinion) will go down as the 4 best single issues he ever did, and prices will be commensurate with that title. You heard it from me first, guys!

 

That is extremely unlikely to happen.

 

Killing Joke is a story containing Batman and the Joker, two of the most iconic figures in comic book history. Miracleman 15 is a story containing...

 

...well you get my point.

 

Whatever you say

 

I'm not comparing them to each other. I'm comparing them to everything else out there by Moore story and art-wise.

 

And 'Saw' made how much and had how many sequels? Fan bases can be entirely distinct yet with the final values being the same.

 

Let's revisit this thread in a few years

 

[heartened]

I don't know anyone with a lot of Leach MM art. You have two pages, I have a page and a cover, not sure who else owns anything, but I doubt anyone has more than 2-3 examples. I just think MM is as good or better than anything else Moore did during the 80s, and it's about time that the series moved up to the same level as V and Watchmen, and personally I think issue 15 will ultimately command the respect (and prices) of KJ pages. Eventually, KJ, MM 15, ST 21, and Watchmen 4 (in my humble opinion) will go down as the 4 best single issues he ever did, and prices will be commensurate with that title. You heard it from me first, guys!

 

I was referring to early bidding, in general. It's pointless, to me, unless it's thrill-bidding, or protecting a market. I don't believe anyone who bids this early in the process is genuinely bidding to win.

 

I love MM, too (although I don't rate it quite as highly as you). I agree that #15 is an important issue. But as an OA collector, the "money" pages are a bit too gruesome for me. Like the Barbara Gordon torture pages in KJ...no thanks. I'd take your great Leach page over those (and I say that as a big fan of Totleben). Regardless, very happy MM has a second life!

 

Hey Felix,

 

Totally agree about early bidding. It is pointless. However, where it goes early is an indication of what types of bids folks think are totally safe. That's what's impressive here. I'm impressed myself, which is why I'm mentioning it! I did not think there'd be any reason to hit these levels early. And, like you, I'm not responsible for where this is at right now.

 

About the content, this is true. But again, just because there may be fewer bidders does not mean that the final hammer prices will be any lower. And, many of the folks looking for MM 15 pages might already have their KJ example.

 

Will be interesting to watch all this unfols, at any rate.

 

[jjeanius]

While I am a huge fan of Miracleman, and would also place it alongside V and Watchmen as the best of Alan Moore, I would *not* place any significant premium on Leach MM pages. While they are rare, I do not see a strong tie between Moore/Leach on MM the same way the artists on V and Watchmen are tied to their respective properties. While MM matches those books in story, MM is lacking in artistic consistency, as the book was very much "art by committee" during Moore's run. And, while Leach was the first artist on the run, he did not create the character. So...during the Warrior run alone, you have art by Leach, Davis, Ridgway, Dillon, and Neary. Once it moves to Eclipse, you can add Chuck Austen, Rick Veitch, and Totleben to the list. One could argue that Davis had the biggest impact on the Warrior run, since he had the longest tenure on the character at that time. And...Totleben is the *only* name on the list that I would truly link to Moore in the same co-creator sense as the artists on V and Watchmen, as Olympus was very much a seminal work that elevated the title to legendary status.

 

I would also point out, by way of answering a previous question in this thread, that the page on Heritage is not an A-quality page. To the contrary, I would definitely classify that page as A++. In fact, I don't know that there is a single page from the Warrior run that I would prefer over that one. This page is from the very first issue of Warrior, featuring the first in-costume appearance of the title character, in an action half-splash title page. IMO, it doesn't get any better than this. So...to cite the bidding on this page as proof that all Leach pages, by comparison, are now fully $10k pages....I just don't see it.

 

I understand, Hari, that you yourself are willing to pay this price for any Leach pages...but even so, it takes more than one person to make a market. I, personally, do not value Leach pages as highly...and all things being equal, I'd be just as happy with a nice Davis page for $3k - $5k as I would be with a comparable Leach page...so I'd take the Davis page every time.

Edited January 29, 2014 by jjeanius

[J.Sid]

Are we really talking about the writing in those other three being on the same level as Watchmen?

[heartened]

Are we really talking about the writing in those other three being on the same level as Watchmen?

 

The writing in ST 21 and MM was on par with Watchmen. KJ not so much.

 

[heartened]

While I am a huge fan of Miracleman, and would also place it alongside V and Watchmen as the best of Alan Moore, I would *not* place any significant premium on Leach MM pages. While they are rare, I do not see a strong tie between Moore/Leach on MM the same way the artists on V and Watchmen are tied to their respective properties. While MM matches those books in story, MM is lacking in artistic consistency, as the book was very much "art by committee" during Moore's run. And, while Leach was the first artist on the run, he did not create the character. So...during the Warrior run alone, you have art by Leach, Davis, Ridgway, Dillon, and Neary. Once it moves to Eclipse, you can add Chuck Austen, Rick Veitch, and Totleben to the list. One could argue that Davis had the biggest impact on the Warrior run, since he had the longest tenure on the character at that time. And...Totleben is the *only* name on the list that I would truly link to Moore in the same co-creator sense as the artists on V and Watchmen, as Olympus was very much a seminal work that elevated the title to legendary status.

 

I would also point out, by way of answering a previous question in this thread, that the page on Heritage is not an A-quality page. To the contrary, I would definitely classify that page as A++. In fact, I don't know that there is a single page from the Warrior run that I would prefer over that one. This page is from the very first issue of Warrior, featuring the first in-costume appearance of the title character, in an action half-splash title page. IMO, it doesn't get any better than this. So...to cite the bidding on this page as proof that all Leach pages, by comparison, are now fully $10k pages....I just don't see it.

 

I understand, Hari, that you yourself are willing to pay this price for any Leach pages...but even so, it takes more than one person to make a market. I, personally, do not value Leach pages as highly...and all things being equal, I'd be just as happy with a nice Davis page for $3k - $5k as I would be with a comparable Leach page...so I'd take the Davis page every time.

 

HI Court,

 

Actually, I think the page on Heritage is an A page. It is part of his dream sequence flashback, so not really the first apperance. There are at least 3 other pages that are much better and more important in that first story arc by Leach. Those would be A+ and the sky's the limit. For this one, it's an A page. For those of us that know the series well, just close your eyes and try to depict the best pages from MM1 (the Eclipse run). This page isn't in the top 3, although it is clearly a great page.

 

If Felix and I are not the one's bidding this thing up to these levels right now, I suspect there's more than a handful of people interested. I disagree that Leach is not as associated with MM. He developed the look of this "new" character, alongside Moore. So, to me, Leach MM and Totleben MM are the tops (moreso Totleben for the reasons you mentioned). Davis did a great job too, but Leach and Totleben are the kings here in my opinion.

 

Best,

 

[lb jefferies]

When I think about the run the page that comes to my mind the fastest is the first big panel appearance of the real Kid Miracleman. A+. And who owns that one?

Edited January 29, 2014 by LB Jefferies

[cheekyj2112]

Just got the re-release of Miracleman today, and it made me realize we don't have Leach Miracleman art on this list. Would place it at 10-20K for the A level pages. Felix and Joseph M. can back me up on this one, but if they think that's too high then I guess we put it in the 5-10K. Although, good luck getting anyone to part with their A level Leach MM pages at anywhere less than 10K... if you can find one, that is.

 

I don't know the market for Leach MM pages, but, judging from your description, it sounds like it's small, illiquid and, one might say, "trades by appointment". And, that being the case, I'm not sure how realistic these values are...I mean, let's face it, when people think about $10-$20K pages, nobody outside of like 5 people would probably even think to consider Leach MM.

 

There were several sales of Jose Gonzalez Vampirella splashes a while back in the $5K range (back when there were none to be had and when $5K was real money). Probably about as many data points for those as 5-figure Leach MM pages, but I wouldn't have called that a representative market level either.

 

Hey Gene,

 

Rarity is a factor, and I agree that it complicates things. But, this is a slippery slope. There are lots of artists who had a small body of work and command high prices because of it. A comparison here is Keith Sandman pages, or Steranko X-Men pages. Each had about the same as Leach Miracleman. I look through the list and I too agree that if I had 10-20K there's a ton of stuff that wouldn't interest me on the list. The idea is not that people will pick and choose from amongst the list, but rather IF they wanted something on the list, this gives them a price point. I paid 12K for my page, which is a A+ page, about 6 years ago. Felix's pages are more B+ pages (sorry Felix, no offense meant!! I'd gladly take them off your hands!) and he paid about 7-8K apiece, roughly 4 years ago now. And those were public auctions. There are more pages out there of course, and I suspect they will start to surface now. 10K+ seems very reasonable to me. Again, this doesn't have to be what anyone will pay, but rather what someone would have to pay IF they were interested in an A level page by said artist/run.

 

Felix, Joseph, any comments?

 

No offense taken, Hari! I've got nothing against B+ pages (so long as the price is right!). There are plenty of B+ pages out there I wouldn't hesitate to add to my collection (such as your KILLING JOKE pages) for the right price!

 

I do agree that an "A" Leach MM page would be a pretty easy sell at $10K these days. I'm less sure as we approach $20K, though. Hope we get to find out at auction!

 

Well that didn't take long. Check out the price on the Leach MM page, already at 13K after 1 day of bidding. The market is starved for this stuff.

 

 

Someone's going to end up with a very expensive MIRACLEMAN page!

 

For the record, I haven't placed a single bid. I'm not a thrill-bidder, and I also don't own enough of anything to worry about propping up its market. Good luck to the bidders on this page and most of all, congrats to the consignor!

 

I don't know anyone with a lot of Leach MM art. You have two pages, I have a page and a cover, not sure who else owns anything, but I doubt anyone has more than 2-3 examples. I just think MM is as good or better than anything else Moore did during the 80s, and it's about time that the series moved up to the same level as V and Watchmen, and personally I think issue 15 will ultimately command the respect (and prices) of KJ pages. Eventually, KJ, MM 15, ST 21, and Watchmen 4 (in my humble opinion) will go down as the 4 best single issues he ever did, and prices will be commensurate with that title. You heard it from me first, guys!

 

Hari

 

Sorry, I didn't see that you'd directed a question at me earlier. I certainly agree that an A grade pure Leach MM page would command $10k+. I briefly had a really nice fight page but parted with it as part of a larger deal and have looked to replace it ever since.

I (along with everyone on the Boards it now seems) was aware of the Heritage MM title page from a couple of years back and thought it might be the one.

 

I can see why people might be sceptical about these prices given how little (and public) data there is to back this up.

On one level I'm reticent about putting numbers out there lest, as noted before, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. We've all seen that after the big Frank Miller Heritage results every Frank Miller piece became supposedly worth xth of a million.

 

I'm a big MM fan but I certainly wouldn't be putting any money on Miracleman 15 getting up to the level of Killing Joke. Although it does explain why you think I was so crazy to let go of my other MM 15 page.

I'll trade you my MM 15 for one of your KJ pages though.

Watchmen 4? Really? Rather than issue 5 or 6?

 

 

[J.Sid]

Are we really talking about the writing in those other three being on the same level as Watchmen?

 

The writing in ST 21 and MM was on par with Watchmen. KJ not so much.

 

Guess we'll have to disagree on that one!

[heartened]

Just got the re-release of Miracleman today, and it made me realize we don't have Leach Miracleman art on this list. Would place it at 10-20K for the A level pages. Felix and Joseph M. can back me up on this one, but if they think that's too high then I guess we put it in the 5-10K. Although, good luck getting anyone to part with their A level Leach MM pages at anywhere less than 10K... if you can find one, that is.

 

I don't know the market for Leach MM pages, but, judging from your description, it sounds like it's small, illiquid and, one might say, "trades by appointment". And, that being the case, I'm not sure how realistic these values are...I mean, let's face it, when people think about $10-$20K pages, nobody outside of like 5 people would probably even think to consider Leach MM.

 

There were several sales of Jose Gonzalez Vampirella splashes a while back in the $5K range (back when there were none to be had and when $5K was real money). Probably about as many data points for those as 5-figure Leach MM pages, but I wouldn't have called that a representative market level either.

 

Hey Gene,

 

Rarity is a factor, and I agree that it complicates things. But, this is a slippery slope. There are lots of artists who had a small body of work and command high prices because of it. A comparison here is Keith Sandman pages, or Steranko X-Men pages. Each had about the same as Leach Miracleman. I look through the list and I too agree that if I had 10-20K there's a ton of stuff that wouldn't interest me on the list. The idea is not that people will pick and choose from amongst the list, but rather IF they wanted something on the list, this gives them a price point. I paid 12K for my page, which is a A+ page, about 6 years ago. Felix's pages are more B+ pages (sorry Felix, no offense meant!! I'd gladly take them off your hands!) and he paid about 7-8K apiece, roughly 4 years ago now. And those were public auctions. There are more pages out there of course, and I suspect they will start to surface now. 10K+ seems very reasonable to me. Again, this doesn't have to be what anyone will pay, but rather what someone would have to pay IF they were interested in an A level page by said artist/run.

 

Felix, Joseph, any comments?

 

No offense taken, Hari! I've got nothing against B+ pages (so long as the price is right!). There are plenty of B+ pages out there I wouldn't hesitate to add to my collection (such as your KILLING JOKE pages) for the right price!

 

I do agree that an "A" Leach MM page would be a pretty easy sell at $10K these days. I'm less sure as we approach $20K, though. Hope we get to find out at auction!

 

Well that didn't take long. Check out the price on the Leach MM page, already at 13K after 1 day of bidding. The market is starved for this stuff.

 

 

Someone's going to end up with a very expensive MIRACLEMAN page!

 

For the record, I haven't placed a single bid. I'm not a thrill-bidder, and I also don't own enough of anything to worry about propping up its market. Good luck to the bidders on this page and most of all, congrats to the consignor!

 

I don't know anyone with a lot of Leach MM art. You have two pages, I have a page and a cover, not sure who else owns anything, but I doubt anyone has more than 2-3 examples. I just think MM is as good or better than anything else Moore did during the 80s, and it's about time that the series moved up to the same level as V and Watchmen, and personally I think issue 15 will ultimately command the respect (and prices) of KJ pages. Eventually, KJ, MM 15, ST 21, and Watchmen 4 (in my humble opinion) will go down as the 4 best single issues he ever did, and prices will be commensurate with that title. You heard it from me first, guys!

 

Hari

 

Sorry, I didn't see that you'd directed a question at me earlier. I certainly agree that an A grade pure Leach MM page would command $10k+. I briefly had a really nice fight page but parted with it as part of a larger deal and have looked to replace it ever since.

I (along with everyone on the Boards it now seems) was aware of the Heritage MM title page from a couple of years back and thought it might be the one.

 

I can see why people might be sceptical about these prices given how little (and public) data there is to back this up.

On one level I'm reticent about putting numbers out there lest, as noted before, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. We've all seen that after the big Frank Miller Heritage results every Frank Miller piece became supposedly worth xth of a million.

 

I'm a big MM fan but I certainly wouldn't be putting any money on Miracleman 15 getting up to the level of Killing Joke. Although it does explain why you think I was so crazy to let go of my other MM 15 page.

I'll trade you my MM 15 for one of your KJ pages though.

Watchmen 4? Really? Rather than issue 5 or 6?

 

 

Oops, my bad. I meant issue #9, the one with Dr. Manhattan on Mars. It's not my favorite (that goes to #6), but I think many consider #9 a high-water mark.

 

And yes, I thought you were nuts to let go of the first page to MM 15. So, thank you for being a crazy Brit

 

[heartened]

Are we really talking about the writing in those other three being on the same level as Watchmen?

 

The writing in ST 21 and MM was on par with Watchmen. KJ not so much.

 

Guess we'll have to disagree on that one!

 

No worries! Just expressing my opinion. There's no right answer here, it's all subjective. I love it all, but in my mind that's how I rate the writing overall.

 

[heartened]

When I think about the run the page that comes to my mind the fastest is the first big panel appearance of the real Kid Miracleman. A+. And who owns that one?

 

What? You're crazy! That one doesn't' even have miracleman in costume!

 

[jjonahjameson1]

Are we really talking about the writing in those other three being on the same level as Watchmen?

 

The writing in ST 21 and MM was on par with Watchmen. KJ not so much.

 

Guess we'll have to disagree on that one!

 

+1

[jjeanius]

For my money, I think the final page of Warrior 1 would be my first choice. That being said, the HA page is right up there.

[Nexus]

When I think about the run the page that comes to my mind the fastest is the first big panel appearance of the real Kid Miracleman. A+. And who owns that one?

 

What? You're crazy! That one doesn't' even have miracleman in costume!

 

No costume? B+.

 

 

BTW...there is one collector who has more than two Leach pages. Just picked up issue #2, which features the 6-page fight sequence. All owned by one collector. Had forgotten about that!

[heartened]

For my money, I think the final page of Warrior 1 would be my first choice. That being said, the HA page is right up there.

 

For me, the page where he transforms and is standing there in his own flames, and the page where he leaps in the air saying "I'm back!" are by far the two best pages in the first book, A+ for sure.

 

I've been thinking a lot about why I like the Leach art. His art is very smooth, with excellent shadowing, and an assured stroke. Felix's pages are exquisite; it's not easy to draw women that well, and he does a tremendous job making her elegant yet strong at the same time. The shadowing on the bedsheet in particular on Felix's page is really phenomenal. When I look at the Davis pages, they don't have all of that. I own one Davis page from the run, but overall the Davis issues seem more stiff and less "alive" to me.

 

Now, I realize Davis went on to more mainstream fame, but that should really have no bearing here. Let a couple more issues go by, then look back at the Leach vs. Davis art. Totleben's art was the best on this run, followed by Leach and then by Davis. The rest was solid too but these three are the ones that will stand the test of time and be valued accordingly.

 

Just some thoughts, for what it's worth...

 

[Nexus]

Leach's art reminds me of Bolland's, with an extremely precise line. Very controlled, nothing haphazard or messy. Very few corrections, too. Those UK guys were pretty amazing.

 

My personal preference from an art standpoint is Leach, Totleben and Davis (tie), and then everyone else. If we're including the story in our evaluation, then it's Totleben, Leach and Davis (tie), and everyone else.

 

I agree with others that WATCHMEN is Moore's best writing from his '80s heyday. My only criticism is that it's so tightly constructed, that it can come off a bit mechanical. MIRACLEMAN and V FOR VENDETTA (which I rank just below WM) are looser, but the storytelling is more organic. They pack a stronger punch to the gut for me. Everything Moore's done has been in the shadow of WATCHMEN...it's nice to some of his other great works get some sun now, too.