Ive lost ALL confidence in CGC - UPDATE on page 221 2 2

[CBT]

 

I'd propose that CGC disclose what their grading standards are. Or, as many suspect, there aren't any. It's all reliant on the 30+ year expertise of "Bob", etc. And that's fine too, but at least be clear about that.

 

Is it, "one spine tick = 9.8 becomes 9.4" ... that kind of thing...or is it a merely qualitative judgement?

 

I've always equated CGC graders to NBA refs. There are rules, but different refs call fouls lightly or aggressively. With NBA teams, they know the refs. With CGC, we never know.

 

Is this instance an outlier, or does it happen more than we realize. I'd say everyone's personal satisfaction with CGC is either validated or rattled by this. For me, I've had wonky things happen with purple books, so this confirms what I've always believed, that CGCs grading is more fluid than we realize. And that few speak out because they think they're the isolated exception, while dealers accept the variance, even using it to their advantage when they can (and I don't blame them).

 

 

I think eventually someday this will be the way it is, but it wont happen until there is legitimate competition.

 

CGC and the faithful attack dogs buried the competition and got the monopoly. Slowly alternatives will come out, and while the people here wont change (and neither will I), eventually they will be pressured from competitors again, and then customer service will be forced upon them.

 

Nothing that CGC does is unique, or exclusive to them. Whenever there is money to be made, eventually competition will rise to pressure them. The ONLY reason people care at all to use CGC is the extra money it makes them.

 

If a competitor is ever able to close that gap, while charging less, look out. It's Moderns where they are most vulnerable as well. That's where the competition will first start to make in roads.

 

[drbanner]

Like everything else, trimming can be fixed with a "quick press", just send it to Matt!

 

Be glad you guys don't collect coins...coin doctoring, overgraded coins, sneaky-pete coins, etc. Coins are tinkered and toyed with until they reach their "final resting place" at which point there's no possible freaking way that the coin can ever be upgraded again as every possible avenue for bumping up the grade has been thoroughly and repeatedly exhausted. Yippee.

[telerites]

I've even talked to graders a few days or a few weeks after grading a book and they have no idea which book I'm talking about.

 

I'd liken it to working in a grocery store and trying to remember what all the people looked like last week. The odd person might jog your memory if they looked like an Action #1 but for the most part, it's a blur.

I'm curious how long some posters think CGC graders spend on a book. 12 seconds? 20?

Some of the posts seem like they imagine Graders do extensive CSI type investigative exams.

 

I'd think it depends on the book. I'd venture a guess and say 30-60 seconds. Some more, some less depending on era, grade, resto, etc.

 

 

I hope they are well paid for that one minutes work.

 

No salary quoted but they have had a job opening on their website for as long as I can remember - http://www.cgccomics.com/about/careers.asp

 

"CGC is hiring:

Comic Specialists or Graders

 

We are seeking professional specialists or graders with experience in vintage and modern comics, restoration and knowledge of pedigree. Our graders work as a team, combining their expertise with proven processes to accurately evaluate, authenticate and grade comics, magazines and lobby cards. Located in Sarasota, FL, we offer excellent benefits including medical and 401(k). Salary commensurate with experience.

 

If you feel you meet the qualifications, email your résumé to careers@CGCcomics.com or fax your résumé to 941-360-2558."

 

 

[chrisco37]

I imagine it takes them longer than one minute. Even on a book with no flaws.

 

By the time you remove the book from the bag, and flip through the pages (gently, I'm assuming) to make sure they're all there and not torn/ripped/pieces missing/drawn on/indented/etc...you've probably hit the minute mark already.

 

You still have to look at the cover, make notes, assess the damage, assign a grade, return it to the bag, etc...

 

It definitely takes longer than a minute.

[sufunk]

I'm not sure what's more disturbing, the idea that this book got preferential treatment based on the new submitter or the idea that in the attempt to cash in on Con sig series grading, CGC can't reliably grade books sent to their facility during Con season. Those seem to be the only two logical conclusions based on the facts later out and neither are good for cgc's reputation (thumbs u

[Davenport]

I've even talked to graders a few days or a few weeks after grading a book and they have no idea which book I'm talking about.

 

I'd liken it to working in a grocery store and trying to remember what all the people looked like last week. The odd person might jog your memory if they looked like an Action #1 but for the most part, it's a blur.

I'm curious how long some posters think CGC graders spend on a book. 12 seconds? 20?

Some of the posts seem like they imagine Graders do extensive CSI type investigative exams.

 

I'd think it depends on the book. I'd venture a guess and say 30-60 seconds. Some more, some less depending on era, grade, resto, etc.

Really? You think they average that much time per book? Either way, the point being reality is more churn & burn piecework than any imagined CSI treatment.

 

I guess some math-head could average it out. CGC boated in 2012: Grades 2 Million Comic Books. The article states "over the past 11 years", with "submissions increased by 10 percent per year".

 

[meshuggah]

I've even talked to graders a few days or a few weeks after grading a book and they have no idea which book I'm talking about.

 

I'd liken it to working in a grocery store and trying to remember what all the people looked like last week. The odd person might jog your memory if they looked like an Action #1 but for the most part, it's a blur.

I'm curious how long some posters think CGC graders spend on a book. 12 seconds? 20?

Some of the posts seem like they imagine Graders do extensive CSI type investigative exams.

 

I'd think it depends on the book. I'd venture a guess and say 30-60 seconds. Some more, some less depending on era, grade, resto, etc.

 

I hope they are well paid for that one minutes work.

 

No salary quoted but they have had a job opening on their website for as long as I can remember - http://www.cgccomics.com/about/careers.asp

 

"CGC is hiring:

Comic Specialists or Graders

 

We are seeking professional specialists or graders with experience in vintage and modern comics, restoration and knowledge of pedigree. Our graders work as a team, combining their expertise with proven processes to accurately evaluate, authenticate and grade comics, magazines and lobby cards. Located in Sarasota, FL, we offer excellent benefits including medical and 401(k). Salary commensurate with experience.

 

If you feel you meet the qualifications, email your résumé to careers@CGCcomics.com or fax your résumé to 941-360-2558."

 

 

Tnerb, who spends most his time on the journals applied and went through the process. He wasn't hired though.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I haven't read the entire thread, however, I read enough to get the jist of what's going on here. Plain and simple:

 

It was stated after the initial change to a PLOD that anyone with any grading ability at CGC looked at this book. Upon the most recent re-sub it would have passed through the hands of two regular graders and gone on to a senior grader for it's final grade assignment.

 

"CGC guarantees that a comic book encapsulated in a CGC holder is authentic and has been inspected by at least two professionals."

 

http://www.cgccomics.com/grading/cgc-comics-guarantee.asp

 

"Before a comic book is CGC-certified, it must be graded by at least two comic professionals according to well established standards that ensure integrity, quality, confidentiality and consistency."

 

http://www.cgccomics.com/about/grading_benefits.asp

 

What is a "professional"?

 

What is a "comic professional"?

 

The word "grader" appears nowhere there.

 

The answer is, the "grader" language has been removed.

 

There is absolutely no way that any of the senior graders saw this book before and didn't remember it. The creasing along the spine is too distinct.

 

This is one of the more interesting charges. CGC's "professionals" see thousands of comics a month (they'd have to.) If a book is only in their hands long enough to grade it, was preceded by several hundred books, and followed by several hundred more, it's not really a fair claim to say they'd remember it.

 

CGC either owes Spider-Dan some money and needs to admit they up when he re-subbed the book or their reputation means nothing. Or... it boils down to the fact that if you know the right people or are the right person you can get grades, label colors etc. changed with a phone call.

 

This is the kind of thing I'd expect to hear about PGX not CGC.

 

True....but CGC expressly disclaims everything. They guarantee nothing, even if they rolled up your book into a little ball and tossed it in the trash. No, really, their guarantee says it in black and white; that's what this means:

 

"BY USING CGC’s PRODUCTS AND SERVICES, YOU AGREE THAT YOU WILL NOT HOLD CGC OR ITS EMPLOYEES, MEMBERS, AFFILIATES, OR OFFICERS FINANCIALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY DAMAGE OR LOSS TO THE COMIC BOOKS OR TO YOU AS A RESULT OF ANY CAUSE WHATSOEVER, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGE OR LOSS CAUSED IN WHOLE OR IN PART BY THE NEGLIGENCE OF CGC."

 

 

[NinjaSealed]

I'm just blown away that no a month ago said "Hey, maybe we should take a few pictures/scans of this book, it does have unique defects, just in case someone else tries to submit it in the near future, because if we regraded it a blue imagine how it would make us look."

[RockMyAmadeus]

But CGC is giving out numbered grades and colored labels...in effect, definitive grades. And when something like this happens the answer will be "meh, we're only human." The two don't go together. It's one or the other.

 

Ok....if you've identified a problem, propose a solution??

 

Competition.

 

That is the answer to everything. Always has been.

[bighairjer]

What is CPR?

 

Crack, Press, Resub

 

I'd hate for someone to be drowing and someone yell, "who knows CPR"

 

 

[conditionfreak]

As I posted previously in this thread. I am wondering what "everyone in the building with grading credibility" means. And if that is an exact quote from Harshen.

 

Was there one person in the building on that day, that was considered as a credible grader? Two people?

 

Did the OP exact quote what Harshen stated, or did the OP just put it into his own words?

 

I would love to be a fly on the wall in CGC's main office, when the meeting is held on how to address this situation.

 

Now THAT would be interesting.

 

My guess is that the current owner will be asked to resubmit this book for free, and it will be given a purple label. Since he (or she) will not actually lose money because he bought it with a purple label on it. With CGC giving a mea culpa, stating they just got it wrong when they gave it a blue label. And that things will be "tightened up" in regards to trimming, etc.

 

There is no other way this could work out. Anything other than the above, would be quite a devastating hit to their business credibility.

 

But they will survive, no matter what the outcome of this situation. Just like GM will with their current embarrassing situation. There are just too many people invested in the CGC model. Collectors that have poured thousands of dollars into their collections, sellers who specialize in CGC "stuff", auction houses that specialize in CGC "stuff", and even the casual collector who only has ten to twenty slabbed comics.

 

Like Columbia Comics stated. It is not the end of the world. Although I hate when someone says that their kids and wife still love them, so anything else is no big deal.

 

It actually IS a big deal. If you have hundreds of CGC graded books in your collection. As I do.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Like everything else, trimming can be fixed with a "quick press", just send it to Matt!

 

Be glad you guys don't collect coins...coin doctoring, overgraded coins, sneaky-pete coins, etc. Coins are tinkered and toyed with until they reach their "final resting place" at which point there's no possible freaking way that the coin can ever be upgraded again as every possible avenue for bumping up the grade has been thoroughly and repeatedly exhausted. Yippee.

And it's been happening for 100 years or more....slabbing only sped up the process.

 

[techtre2003]

As I posted previously in this thread. I am wondering what "everyone in the building with grading credibility" means. And if that is an exact quote from Harshen.

 

Was there one person in the building on that day, that was considered as a credible grader? Two people?

 

Did the OP exact quote what Harshen stated, or did the OP just put it into his own words?

 

I would love to be a fly on the wall in CGC's main office, when the meeting is held on how to address this situation.

 

Now THAT would be interesting.

 

My guess is that the current owner will be asked to resubmit this book for free, and it will be given a purple label. Since he (or she) will not actually lose money because he bought it with a purple label on it. With CGC giving a mea culpa, stating they just got it wrong when they gave it a blue label. And that things will be "tightened up" in regards to trimming, etc.

 

There is no other way this could work out. Anything other than the above, would be quite a devastating hit to their business credibility.

 

But they will survive, no matter what the outcome of this situation. Just like GM will with their current embarrassing situation. There are just too many people invested in the CGC model. Collectors that have poured thousands of dollars into their collections, sellers who specialize in CGC "stuff", auction houses that specialize in CGC "stuff", and even the casual collector who only has ten to twenty slabbed comics.

 

Like Columbia Comics stated. It is not the end of the world. Although I hate when someone says that their kids and wife still love them, so anything else is no big deal.

 

It actually IS a big deal. If you have hundreds of CGC graded books in your collection. As I do.

 

Do you really think this is true though? I have to think that only a very small percentage of collectors are members on this site and will even hear about all of this. As far as those of us who are on here, I think the damage has been done. There are probably a few on here that were on the fence before and have now been tipped over, but I have to agree with those that say that whatever the outcome happens to be that this will just be swept under the rug and forgotten about by most until the next big screw up is posted on here.

[Hado]

I do agree that the most likely scenario was that the book was sent in raw with no label. Heck, the person who resubmitted it could have had the edge that was trimmed roughed up to make it less noticeable.

 

With a label or not, since when does adding a label preclude the book not getting a regrade? CGC's policy is that as long as a book is removed from it's holder/inner well, it needs to be regraded. If they hand out free reholders based on submitting a book with the label, then we have a bigger issue than what's been exposed in this thread.

 

As for the scenario of "tweaking" the book to get the blue label - not a chance. This book was submitted by someone who clearly disagreed with CGC's assessment it was trimmed, and/or seems to have developed a way of identifying books or a manner of submitting which exposes CGC's grading inconsistency.

 

I concede this could be explained by someone with experience submitting in a manner that assures him a "less is more" service, or where there's a set of eyes/resources are absent from the grading mix due to time constraints or needing to crank out a high volume of submissions for a weekend show.

 

Regardless, what matters most here is how they handled this when it was brought to their attention the first time. The thing they missed most is the opportunity cost of averting this alternate ending from playing out.

 

Joe, the board member who purchased the book could have cracked it out and sold it raw down the line as an unrestored book. There are always options other than having it re-graded.

 

Your post did get me thinking so I went back and looked at the day the book was graded. It was 3/27/2014. That was the Thursday many of the CGC staff were flying into Seattle. I saw Paul at the show. Not sure if he flew out Thursday or Friday but the book had to be finalized by someone left at CGC. I am not 100% on CGC's policy on walk-thru books but someone has to finalize it.

 

For the submitter to know the travel plans and availability of who would have been working that day would be timing of epic proportions. Not saying that someone out there could not have planned to have the book there understanding the dynamics of CGC's staffing issues just before a show, but it is a stretch.

 

Yeah, I don't want to get hung-up on plausibility here, because for all we know this could have been a "better luck next time" scenario. However even when I did a handful of shows back to back, I had a good understanding of which people participated at which events, and this carried over to year after year because it was the same handful of people participating.

 

The thing that would concern me more than this "timing" play is someone having a better understanding of trimming than CGC's own in-house grading experts. Apart from this possibility this is a random luck situation, the idea that "trimmed" examples have been cherry-picked like this before is a disturbing thought, but not a stretch given the way some people incessantly obsess over trying to game the system as long as there's money to be made.

 

On these points I agree 100%. As long as a buck or a few thousand are there to be made, someone will try and game the system. No system can prepare in advance for every scenario coming its way. It is how the system reacts that's important here.

 

Until we know who it was sold to and hear from that person, we really won't know the answers.

 

It could have been sold raw on eBay, could have been a lot of stuff. I'm not sure why the person showed the book to Dan and if he/she knew Dan would start another thread, but maybe there is a simple explanation.

 

It also could have just been graded on the right/wrong day. The graders are humans. There used to be a huge GM plant near where I lived. I met many of the workers/managers when I worked in the area. They all said the same thing. "Never buy a car assembled on a Monday".

 

People are subject to outside influences.

 

What bothers me more is the scenario where the edge could have been roughed up. It might not have happened here, but I have heard of it happening on other books.

 

I've been slowly upgrading some of my books, I think I'm going back to downgrading. Less worry about them still being "worth" more than what they are..."books".

Sorry, had to weigh in on this, I work in automotive manufacturing. The "never buy a car assembled on a Monday" is a fun little saying, but it's not really true. Manpower situations are alway worse on a Friday.

Also when buying a car, ask to see the Final inspection card. It will show any repairs done during the build, and you can see where in the lot sequence it was, preferably you want it in the middle of the lot, not near the beginning or end.

 

Now, back to comic talk

[Magneto]

As I posted previously in this thread. I am wondering what "everyone in the building with grading credibility" means. And if that is an exact quote from Harshen.

 

Was there one person in the building on that day, that was considered as a credible grader? Two people?

 

Did the OP exact quote what Harshen stated, or did the OP just put it into his own words?

 

I would love to be a fly on the wall in CGC's main office, when the meeting is held on how to address this situation.

 

Now THAT would be interesting.

 

My guess is that the current owner will be asked to resubmit this book for free, and it will be given a purple label. Since he (or she) will not actually lose money because he bought it with a purple label on it. With CGC giving a mea culpa, stating they just got it wrong when they gave it a blue label. And that things will be "tightened up" in regards to trimming, etc.

 

There is no other way this could work out. Anything other than the above, would be quite a devastating hit to their business credibility.

 

But they will survive, no matter what the outcome of this situation. Just like GM will with their current embarrassing situation. There are just too many people invested in the CGC model. Collectors that have poured thousands of dollars into their collections, sellers who specialize in CGC "stuff", auction houses that specialize in CGC "stuff", and even the casual collector who only has ten to twenty slabbed comics.

 

Like Columbia Comics stated. It is not the end of the world. Although I hate when someone says that their kids and wife still love them, so anything else is no big deal.

 

It actually IS a big deal. If you have hundreds of CGC graded books in your collection. As I do.

 

Do you really think this is true though? I have to think that only a very small percentage of collectors are members on this site and will even hear about all of this. As far as those of us who are on here, I think the damage has been done. There are probably a few on here that were on the fence before and have now been tipped over, but I have to agree with those that say that whatever the outcome happens to be that this will just be swept under the rug and forgotten about by most until the next big screw up is posted on here.

 

I agree that a larger percentage of people interested in CGC services will never hear about this. However, I hope there is some attempt by the company to address this situation to many of the members of these forums who have been lyal customers for years.

[comicwiz]

My guess is that the current owner will be asked to resubmit this book for free, and it will be given a purple label. Since he (or she) will not actually lose money because he bought it with a purple label on it. With CGC giving a mea culpa, stating they just got it wrong when they gave it a blue label. And that things will be "tightened up" in regards to trimming, etc.

 

How do you reconcile the fact that Spider-Dan may have taken a loss on the book, after the resolution reached with CGC likely hinged on him eating purple and liking it, plus whatever amount he netted selling it as purple?

 

And what about the grading costs, and lost opportunity costs to the submitter? Does seem a bit overreaching to expect everyone will play nice, especially when CGC wasn't willing to budge on their position it was purple, nor were they initially even willing to compensate Spider-Dan when this situation was originally publicly aired.

 

I see your suggestion as being a little too clean-cut, and highly contingent on the cooperation of two injured parties, which is minimized to one if the current owner tells CGC to take a hike, but whose financial injury and lost opportunity costs should still be acknowledged and restituted well before we can (at least calmly and reasonably for the effected parties) return to any discussion or need for CGC's reputation to recover from this.

[shadroch]

I imagine it takes them longer than one minute. Even on a book with no flaws.

 

By the time you remove the book from the bag, and flip through the pages (gently, I'm assuming) to make sure they're all there and not torn/ripped/pieces missing/drawn on/indented/etc...you've probably hit the minute mark already.

 

You still have to look at the cover, make notes, assess the damage, assign a grade, return it to the bag, etc...

 

It definitely takes longer than a minute.

 

I have no inside info, but I assume the page count is done prior to grading and any damage to the inside is notated for the graders.

I forget the number but I remember being stunned at the number of books they graded at a Wizard show a few years back.

[thirdgreenham]

Finally, some drama around here!

[chrisco37]

I imagine it takes them longer than one minute. Even on a book with no flaws.

 

By the time you remove the book from the bag, and flip through the pages (gently, I'm assuming) to make sure they're all there and not torn/ripped/pieces missing/drawn on/indented/etc...you've probably hit the minute mark already.

 

You still have to look at the cover, make notes, assess the damage, assign a grade, return it to the bag, etc...

 

It definitely takes longer than a minute.

 

I have no inside info, but I assume the page count is done prior to grading and any damage to the inside is notated for the graders.

I forget the number but I remember being stunned at the number of books they graded at a Wizard show a few years back.

 

Page count is done prior, but they still have to go thru each page (if they are truly grading the entire book). So, I guess they don't technically have to count the pages but that's going to happen as a by-product of grading the entire book.