Ive lost ALL confidence in CGC - UPDATE on page 221 2 2

[VintageComics]

But CGC is giving out numbered grades and colored labels...in effect, definitive grades. And when something like this happens the answer will be "meh, we're only human." The two don't go together. It's one or the other.

 

Ok....if you've identified a problem, propose a solution??

 

You can't have a quantitative number on a qualitative grade. If you do, the whole thing is a farce. (And this is from someone who has 900 slabs in my personal collection. I LIKE grading. But I want transparency).

 

And apparently you can as the marketplace has accepted this since 1998 or whenever CGC was founded.

 

I like grading too and it does add an unbiased element to the business/hobby; but I also realize there are inherent flaws within the same business/hobby.

 

Most likely the biggest flaw it has is that it's not unbiased. Hard to believe that preferred customers don't get softer grading, which probably happened in this case. You do not want to anger your base. happy customer means repeat customer

 

While that makes sense, I cannot prove that anymore than you can. If it were to be proven, the entire House of Cards would collapse.

 

Very true. But it's standard practice in most businesses to give pref treatment to your best customers, I know I do it.

 

I slab between 100 and 500 books a year, the majority of them using Walkthrough tier mainly because I prefer not to wait a month or two for my grade. I'd love to know who these big submitters are getting preferential treatment because all of my disagrements with a CGC grade have generally ended in a dead end.

 

There might be a few smoking guns but sweeping statements that generalize stuff like this are very damaging.

 

As most who have seen the scans I post and recieved books that I sell, I don't have long runs of overgraded books.

 

I've even talked to graders a few days or a few weeks after grading a book and they have no idea which book I'm talking about.

 

I'd liken it to working in a grocery store and trying to remember what all the people looked like last week. The odd person might jog your memory if they looked like an Action #1 but for the most part, it's a blur.

 

CGC are human, they make mistakes and nobody is saying mistakes are OK, but mistakes as unfortunate as they are, are reality. Because we are all human, it's not the mistakes that define us (except to those who are perfect) but rather how we recover from those mistakes.

 

The comments of how upsetting this is are well founded (especially for Dan) but it's important in my opinion to balance the perspective with the fact that we are focusing on the exception rather than the rule with a big honking magnifying glass right now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[chrisco37]

I agree that it may not be useful for this situation currently, however if CGC were to implement the barcode/invisible ink linking the actual book to the system and not just the holder and make this information public then it might stabilize the somewhat fragile state that the hobby appears to be going through.

 

It would deter theft, and also deter the "resubmit and see if I can get a better grade" mentality. I think once a book as been submitted that there should not be the opportunity to crack it open and press, trim, resubmit etc. I mean George Costanza couldn't return his "flagged" book for a refund so why should a slabbed book allowed to be cracked and resubmitted for the sake of profit or cheating the other guy? After all the CGC graders are only human right?

 

Am I alone in this belief or is this what the hobby is turning to?

 

It will never happen as part of the business model from the start was the CPR game. Think about how much they'd lose if people were never able to resub a book once it was graded.

 

CPR was once a secret. Some of us here were part of that curtain reveal. There was outrage then too. Looking back in hindsight, it was always there if you knew where to look.

 

I would like to know who submitted the book, but I doubt we will. It's a little surprising (this whole situation), but I'm not floored like I would've been back in the day.

 

And, no need for anyone talking about being surprised as PQ changing. That happens all the time. Don't put a lot of weight in that. Ever.

 

 

[timfinz]

I agree that it may not be useful for this situation currently, however if CGC were to implement the barcode/invisible ink linking the actual book to the system and not just the holder and make this information public then it might stabilize the somewhat fragile state that the hobby appears to be going through.

 

It would deter theft, and also deter the "resubmit and see if I can get a better grade" mentality. I think once a book as been submitted that there should not be the opportunity to crack it open and press, trim, resubmit etc. I mean George Costanza couldn't return his "flagged" book for a refund so why should a slabbed book allowed to be cracked and resubmitted for the sake of profit or cheating the other guy? After all the CGC graders are only human right?

 

Am I alone in this belief or is this what the hobby is turning to?

 

It will never happen as part of the business model from the start was the CPR game. Think about how much they'd lose if people were never able to resub a book once it was graded.

 

CPR was once a secret. Some of us here were part of that curtain reveal. There was outrage then too. Looking back in hindsight, it was always there if you knew where to look.

 

I would like to know who submitted the book, but I doubt we will. It's a little surprising (this whole situation), but I'm not floored like I would've been back in the day.

 

And, no need for anyone talking about being surprised as PQ changing. That happens all the time. Don't put a lot of weight in that. Ever.

 

What is CPR?

[kimik]

This means that CGC, on purpose or by accident, has two grading standars: one during con season and one during con off season.

This is a big flaw in their system, IMO

 

It is a trend that has been discussed quite a bit over the past few years. The best time to submit books is during convention season if you want gift grades as the volume of books means they have to try to rush through more at once. It is like any other business: higher volume = more errors/defects.

 

Edited March 31, 2014 by kimik

[telerites]

What is CPR?

 

Crack, Press, Resub

[jaybuck43]

Crack, Press, Resubmit

[timfinz]

What is CPR?

 

Crack, Press, Resub

[piper]

I agree that it may not be useful for this situation currently, however if CGC were to implement the barcode/invisible ink linking the actual book to the system and not just the holder and make this information public then it might stabilize the somewhat fragile state that the hobby appears to be going through.

 

It would deter theft, and also deter the "resubmit and see if I can get a better grade" mentality. I think once a book as been submitted that there should not be the opportunity to crack it open and press, trim, resubmit etc. I mean George Costanza couldn't return his "flagged" book for a refund so why should a slabbed book allowed to be cracked and resubmitted for the sake of profit or cheating the other guy? After all the CGC graders are only human right?

 

Am I alone in this belief or is this what the hobby is turning to?

 

It will never happen as part of the business model from the start was the CPR game. Think about how much they'd lose if people were never able to resub a book once it was graded.

 

CPR was once a secret. Some of us here were part of that curtain reveal. There was outrage then too. Looking back in hindsight, it was always there if you knew where to look.

 

I would like to know who submitted the book, but I doubt we will. It's a little surprising (this whole situation), but I'm not floored like I would've been back in the day.

 

And, no need for anyone talking about being surprised as PQ changing. That happens all the time. Don't put a lot of weight in that. Ever.

 

What is CPR?

 

Did this just become a pressing thread?

[jsilverjanet]

What is CPR?

 

Crack, Press, Resub

 

I'd hate for someone to be drowing and someone yell, "who knows CPR"

 

 

[Davenport]

I've even talked to graders a few days or a few weeks after grading a book and they have no idea which book I'm talking about.

 

I'd liken it to working in a grocery store and trying to remember what all the people looked like last week. The odd person might jog your memory if they looked like an Action #1 but for the most part, it's a blur.

I'm curious how long some posters think CGC graders spend on a book. 12 seconds? 20?

Some of the posts seem like they imagine Graders do extensive CSI type investigative exams.

[meshuggah]

I've even talked to graders a few days or a few weeks after grading a book and they have no idea which book I'm talking about.

 

I'd liken it to working in a grocery store and trying to remember what all the people looked like last week. The odd person might jog your memory if they looked like an Action #1 but for the most part, it's a blur.

I'm curious how long some posters think CGC graders spend on a book. 12 seconds? 20?

Some of the posts seem like they imagine Graders do extensive CSI type investigative exams.

 

I have no idea but have wondered this a lot.

[techtre2003]

I've even talked to graders a few days or a few weeks after grading a book and they have no idea which book I'm talking about.

 

I'd liken it to working in a grocery store and trying to remember what all the people looked like last week. The odd person might jog your memory if they looked like an Action #1 but for the most part, it's a blur.

I'm curious how long some posters think CGC graders spend on a book. 12 seconds? 20?

Some of the posts seem like they imagine Graders do extensive CSI type investigative exams.

 

Do you know the answer to this? I myself have absolutely no idea and would be interested to know the answer. I would hope if I was spending a few hundred dollars for a service I'd get more than 12-20 seconds worth of work though!

[MCMiles]

What kind of transparency? Even if another company were to crop up, there's not going to be transparency for proprietary reasons, the same as CGC.

 

I agree that there are some strange factors, most notably that some one would regrade a PLOD other than if they believed they could get it back in a blue label holder.

 

More importantly, it was very strategically done, when, as others have pointed out, the head grader was in Seattle and they were understaffed. It wasn't pressed nor did they have Matt look at it by sending through CCS first it appears.

 

At any rate, even if it was a rigged game, it won't satisfy folks who want an answer on the missed trim.

 

For those of you who remember the Ewert days, we probably just never learned how deep the rabbit hole went.

 

I would not say things like I've lost all confidence or I'll never trust CGC again, but I believe it is fair to expect either an explanation or an apology out of this sequence of events.

 

It IS strange that someone would re-grade that particular PLOD. Really only two reasons. 1) Hoping for a blue label to pass off in the future 2) To prove a point about or test CGC's consistency.

 

Can't be sure it was strategically done, but it make sense that anyone with either of the agendas above would have thought of this.

 

For all those that are so certain it was a big time submitter that got the label changed with a wink and smile...That doesn't even make sense. If a submitter had this kind of power, why on earth would they go right back to Spider-Dan with the information knowing it was probably going to become a thread here? Kiss those perks good-bye and move from the perk list to the hammer their books list (Not that I believe either of those lists exists)

 

This looks a lot more like someone set out to purposely test CGC. Looks like CGC failed the test. However. I wouldn't go as far as saying I've lost all credibility in CGC. I very highly doubt it will have the slightest impact on their business. ( I don't expect TATs to improve ) The same haters are going to hate, the same apologists will support them, and the rest of us will make the best decisions we can based on what we learn from it and move forward

 

Edited March 31, 2014 by MCMiles

[timfinz]

What is CPR?

 

Crack, Press, Resub

 

I'd hate for someone to be drowing and someone yell, "who knows CPR"

 

Yeah, I know, that's why I asked! I was expecting something like this! But that person most likely would get a "BLUE" label?

[VintageComics]

I've even talked to graders a few days or a few weeks after grading a book and they have no idea which book I'm talking about.

 

I'd liken it to working in a grocery store and trying to remember what all the people looked like last week. The odd person might jog your memory if they looked like an Action #1 but for the most part, it's a blur.

I'm curious how long some posters think CGC graders spend on a book. 12 seconds? 20?

Some of the posts seem like they imagine Graders do extensive CSI type investigative exams.

 

I'd think it depends on the book. I'd venture a guess and say 30-60 seconds. Some more, some less depending on era, grade, resto, etc.

 

 

[MatterEaterLad]

But CGC is giving out numbered grades and colored labels...in effect, definitive grades. And when something like this happens the answer will be "meh, we're only human." The two don't go together. It's one or the other.

 

Ok....if you've identified a problem, propose a solution??

 

You can't have a quantitative number on a qualitative grade. If you do, the whole thing is a farce. (And this is from someone who has 900 slabs in my personal collection. I LIKE grading. But I want transparency).

 

And apparently you can as the marketplace has accepted this since 1998 or whenever CGC was founded.

 

I like grading too and it does add an unbiased element to the business/hobby; but I also realize there are inherent flaws within the same business/hobby.

 

I'd propose that CGC disclose what their grading standards are. Or, as many suspect, there aren't any. It's all reliant on the 30+ year expertise of "Bob", etc. And that's fine too, but at least be clear about that.

 

Is it, "one spine tick = 9.8 becomes 9.4" ... that kind of thing...or is it a merely qualitative judgement?

 

I've always equated CGC graders to NBA refs. There are rules, but different refs call fouls lightly or aggressively. With NBA teams, they know the refs. With CGC, we never know.

 

Is this instance an outlier, or does it happen more than we realize? I'd say everyone's personal satisfaction with CGC is either validated or rattled by this. For me, I've had wonky things happen with purple books, so this confirms what I've always believed, that CGCs grading is more fluid than we realize. And that few speak out because they think they're the isolated exception, while dealers accept the variance, even using it to their advantage when they can (and I don't blame them).

 

 

[Tony S]

What kind of transparency? Even if another company were to crop up, there's not going to be transparency for proprietary reasons, the same as CGC.

 

I agree that there are some strange factors, most notably that some one would regrade a PLOD other than if they believed they could get it back in a blue label holder.

 

More importantly, it was very strategically done, when, as others have pointed out, the head grader was in Seattle and they were understaffed. It wasn't pressed nor did they have Matt look at it by sending through CCS first it appears.

 

At any rate, even if it was a rigged game, it won't satisfy folks who want an answer on the missed trim.

 

For those of you who remember the Ewert days, we probably just never learned how deep the rabbit hole went.

 

I would not say things like I've lost all confidence or I'll never trust CGC again, but I believe it is fair to expect either an explanation or an apology out of this sequence of events.

 

It IS strange that someone would re-grade that particular PLOD. Really only two reasons. 1) Hoping for a blue label to pass off in the future 2) To prove a point about or test CGC's consistency.

 

Can't be sure it was strategically done, but it make sense that anyone with either of the agendas above would have thought of this.

 

For all those that are so certain it was a big time submitter that got the label changed with a wink and smile...That doesn't even make sense. If a submitter had this kind of power, why on earth would they go right back to Spider-Dan with the information knowing it was probably going to become a thread here? Kiss those perks good-bye and move from the perk list to the hammer their books list (Not that I believe either of those lists exists)

 

This looks a lot more like someone set out to purposely test CGC. Looks like CGC failed the test. However. I wouldn't go as far as saying I've lost all credibility in CGC. I very highly doubt it will have the slightest impact on their business. ( I don't expect TATs to improve ) The same haters are going to hate, the same apologists will support them, and the rest of us will make the best decisions we can based on what we learn from it and move forward

 

[Comicopolis]

I've even talked to graders a few days or a few weeks after grading a book and they have no idea which book I'm talking about.

 

I'd liken it to working in a grocery store and trying to remember what all the people looked like last week. The odd person might jog your memory if they looked like an Action #1 but for the most part, it's a blur.

I'm curious how long some posters think CGC graders spend on a book. 12 seconds? 20?

Some of the posts seem like they imagine Graders do extensive CSI type investigative exams.

 

I'd think it depends on the book. I'd venture a guess and say 30-60 seconds. Some more, some less depending on era, grade, resto, etc.

 

 

I hope they are well paid for that one minutes work.

[MatterEaterLad]

For the record, I was going to walk through a bunch of CPR daredevils for my own collection. (I mentioned this on the Journal section a while back). But I'm not now. If it's a "don't hate the player, hate the game" kind of thing...I'm tired of playing.

 

 

 

 

[joeypost]

I've even talked to graders a few days or a few weeks after grading a book and they have no idea which book I'm talking about.

 

I'd liken it to working in a grocery store and trying to remember what all the people looked like last week. The odd person might jog your memory if they looked like an Action #1 but for the most part, it's a blur.

I'm curious how long some posters think CGC graders spend on a book. 12 seconds? 20?

Some of the posts seem like they imagine Graders do extensive CSI type investigative exams.

 

I have no idea but have wondered this a lot.

 

Moderns I would expect get the least time. I have sat writing for walk thru books and checking on my phone there are delays of up to 1:30 minutes between scheduled and graded. I am sure they do not spend all that time but I cannot imagine it is close to what they spend on moderns. If you know what you are doing I could see getting a good idea of the grade and any issues with restoration in under. 5-10 minutes. Remember the resto check happens before the book is designated a numerical grade. In some cases weeks before.