Ive lost ALL confidence in CGC - UPDATE on page 221 2 2

[skypinkblu]

I too have not read this entire thread but I get the jist of it.

 

Would it be more conducive to discretely "tattoo" the interior of the book with the CGC number to prevent this kind of fiasco? I think it would certainly prevent the books from going through the resubmittal and screwing up the census.

 

 

If i remember correctly, PSA/DNA has invisible ink. CGC could use that to barcode a book.

 

I'm not sure barcoding with solve anything that happened here. There is nothing to stop someone from buying a slabbed book, cracking it out TRIMMING it or ironing it, reading it...or just handling it poorly. Anything could change the grade of the book before it's resubmitted.

 

It might be useful to deter theft but won't help the crack press fiddle resub issues.

[MatterEaterLad]

Seeing as how all you boardies have convicted CGC, you should gather your torches and pitchforks and head down to Sarasota.

 

This whole board/lemmings mentality is beyond dumb...I laugh at 95% of the posts in this thread....

 

 

As someone who only sells CGC'd books on his website I'd say you're hardly unbiased.

 

Staus quo much?

 

 

Not the status quo...just a realistic approach to an unrealistic expectation.

 

The fact that people here expect perfection from an imperfect product is laughable.

 

The only thing I agree w/in this entire thread is that CGC has a responsibility to handle the situation correctly...and that's on them and only them. Its not the responsibility of this community to determine what they should or shouldn't do..and casting stones before all the information is available is not only ignorant, but shows true colors by many.

 

Take it for what you want...if a mistake was made, is it the end of the world? No...my power still comes on, my fridge still keeps my food cold and I still have a roof over my head..

 

Its shameful all these first world problems us comic collectors and dealer's have...

 

But CGC is giving out numbered grades and colored labels...in effect, definitive grades. And when something like this happens the answer will be "meh, we're only human." The two don't go together. It's one or the other.

 

You can't have a quantitative number on a qualitative grade. If you do, the whole thing is a farce. (And this is from someone who has 900 slabs in my personal collection. I LIKE grading. But I want transparency).

[Columbia Comics]

But CGC is giving out numbered grades and colored labels...in effect, definitive grades. And when something like this happens the answer will be "meh, we're only human." The two don't go together. It's one or the other.

 

Ok....if you've identified a problem, propose a solution??

 

You can't have a quantitative number on a qualitative grade. If you do, the whole thing is a farce. (And this is from someone who has 900 slabs in my personal collection. I LIKE grading. But I want transparency).

 

And apparently you can as the marketplace has accepted this since 1998 or whenever CGC was founded.

 

I like grading too and it does add an unbiased element to the business/hobby; but I also realize there are inherent flaws within the same business/hobby.

[Quicksilver Signs]

But CGC is giving out numbered grades and colored labels...in effect, definitive grades. And when something like this happens the answer will be "meh, we're only human." The two don't go together. It's one or the other.

 

Ok....if you've identified a problem, propose a solution??

 

You can't have a quantitative number on a qualitative grade. If you do, the whole thing is a farce. (And this is from someone who has 900 slabs in my personal collection. I LIKE grading. But I want transparency).

 

And apparently you can as the marketplace has accepted this since 1998 or whenever CGC was founded.

 

I like grading too and it does add an unbiased element to the business/hobby; but I also realize there are inherent flaws within the same business/hobby.

 

Most likely the biggest flaw it has is that it's not unbiased. Hard to believe that preferred customers don't get softer grading, which probably happened in this case. You do not want to anger your base. happy customer means repeat customer

[Foolkiller]

What kind of transparency? Even if another company were to crop up, there's not going to be transparency for proprietary reasons, the same as CGC.

 

I agree that there are some strange factors, most notably that some one would regrade a PLOD other than if they believed they could get it back in a blue label holder.

 

More importantly, it was very strategically done, when, as others have pointed out, the head grader was in Seattle and they were understaffed. It wasn't pressed nor did they have Matt look at it by sending through CCS first it appears.

 

At any rate, even if it was a rigged game, it won't satisfy folks who want an answer on the missed trim.

 

For those of you who remember the Ewert days, we probably just never learned how deep the rabbit hole went.

 

I would not say things like I've lost all confidence or I'll never trust CGC again, but I believe it is fair to expect either an explanation or an apology out of this sequence of events.

[N/A]

It's not the same book.

[Columbia Comics]

But CGC is giving out numbered grades and colored labels...in effect, definitive grades. And when something like this happens the answer will be "meh, we're only human." The two don't go together. It's one or the other.

 

Ok....if you've identified a problem, propose a solution??

 

You can't have a quantitative number on a qualitative grade. If you do, the whole thing is a farce. (And this is from someone who has 900 slabs in my personal collection. I LIKE grading. But I want transparency).

 

And apparently you can as the marketplace has accepted this since 1998 or whenever CGC was founded.

 

I like grading too and it does add an unbiased element to the business/hobby; but I also realize there are inherent flaws within the same business/hobby.

 

Most likely the biggest flaw it has is that it's not unbiased. Hard to believe that preferred customers don't get softer grading, which probably happened in this case. You do not want to anger your base. happy customer means repeat customer

 

While that makes sense, I cannot prove that anymore than you can. If it were to be proven, the entire House of Cards would collapse.

[Foolkiller]

But CGC is giving out numbered grades and colored labels...in effect, definitive grades. And when something like this happens the answer will be "meh, we're only human." The two don't go together. It's one or the other.

 

Ok....if you've identified a problem, propose a solution??

 

You can't have a quantitative number on a qualitative grade. If you do, the whole thing is a farce. (And this is from someone who has 900 slabs in my personal collection. I LIKE grading. But I want transparency).

 

And apparently you can as the marketplace has accepted this since 1998 or whenever CGC was founded.

 

I like grading too and it does add an unbiased element to the business/hobby; but I also realize there are inherent flaws within the same business/hobby.

 

Most likely the biggest flaw it has is that it's not unbiased. Hard to believe that preferred customers don't get softer grading, which probably happened in this case. You do not want to anger your base. happy customer means repeat customer

 

Which "big submitter" is here on the boards that would have bought it?

 

The only people I've ever even heard whispers on is Doug or Heritage. i doubt either of them bought the book here off the boards.

 

This to me isn't the victim of a softer grade through a big submitter. I think it's more likely, missed this is the same book and couldn't spot the trimming because it was not an experienced finalizer.

[stanley1883]

Seeing as how all you boardies have convicted CGC, you should gather your torches and pitchforks and head down to Sarasota.

 

This whole board/lemmings mentality is beyond dumb...I laugh at 95% of the posts in this thread....

 

 

As someone who only sells CGC'd books on his website I'd say you're hardly unbiased.

 

Staus quo much?

 

 

Not the status quo...just a realistic approach to an unrealistic expectation.

 

The fact that people here expect perfection from an imperfect product is laughable.

 

The only thing I agree w/in this entire thread is that CGC has a responsibility to handle the situation correctly...and that's on them and only them. Its not the responsibility of this community to determine what they should or shouldn't do..and casting stones before all the information is available is not only ignorant, but shows true colors by many.

 

Take it for what you want...if a mistake was made, is it the end of the world? No...my power still comes on, my fridge still keeps my food cold and I still have a roof over my head..

 

Its shameful all these first world problems us comic collectors and dealer's have...

 

We do not pretend perfection, and a mistake it's not the end of the world, you are right.

But the mistake becomes a PROBLEM when it's made not one, not two, but THREE times on the same book. The third time, after the head of the company assured the customer that "everybody in the building with grading skills" revised the book. Who graded it the third time? The receptionist? With that comment, Herschen added fuel to the fire, also jeopardaizing his and his company reputation.

Finally, if that happened three times on a single book, who knows how many books out there fall in the same category.

 

At the end of the day, you cannot say that three mistakes were made. A blue label went purple...then back to blue.

 

Perhaps the mistake was going to purple. If that's the mistake, then it happened once.

 

I have no clue..I didn't see the book, I didn't grade the book and have no idea if the book should have been recognized.

 

Its a major SA key but its relatively common to say...a Batman 1?? And I realize this addresses another poster but saying the book should have been recognized is like saying I should recognize my lunch 5 hours later...

 

While an argument for overreaction certainly exists, the level of non-chalant, and it's no big deal coming from your post suggests you have your success tied to CGC at least in part.

 

For the "average" colector who does not own a store and isn't in the business of reselling, this is a big deal as we want our comics from a trusted source. These are our collectibles, not our inventory and theres a huge difference between the two.

 

Also I for one love having first world problems, thats why I love this country. I work so I can enjoy my hobbies. The fact that we send our hard earned money to cgc for our grades and to dealers for our books means we can person_without_enough_empathy about whatever we want. We give you our money we expect certain things in return.

[zosocane]

Missing the trimming is not good, but I can see how that might have been missed. What's more disconcerting to me is how, in the span of a couple of months between the issuance of the two slabs, how the grading differed by two full grades AND the PQ is different.

[r100comics]

Trimming is difficult to spot and anyone that remembers CGC erring on the side of caution after the Ewert scandal and wrongly classifying some books as trimmed that were not, should not be surprised at these events.

 

My feeling after reading the initial thread was exactly this. That CGC had found one key book with an unequivical color touch and made an error in determining that the companion key book was also "restored" with a trim.

 

I almost bought the restored J.I.M. #83 myself from Spider-Dan's recent thread I was so confident it could come back clean on a re-sub, but it's the ethical questions we are now debating that made me pass for the sake of a few thousand profit.

 

After the first thread CGC had graded this book correctly once and incorrectly once.

 

If anything they have potentially now improved on those stats, by getting it right twice (blue label) and wrong once (purple label).

 

The more troubling parts of this are the timing of the recent submission, with someone trying to game the system, and the nature of the thorough review that CGC gave the book in the purple holder.

 

 

[Columbia Comics]

While an argument for overreaction certainly exists, the level of non-chalant, and it's no big deal coming from your post suggests you have your success tied to CGC at least in part.

 

For the "average" colector who does not own a store and isn't in the business of reselling, this is a big deal as we want our comics from a trusted source. These are our collectibles, not our inventory and theres a huge difference between the two.

 

Also I for one love having first world problems, thats why I love this country. I work so I can enjoy my hobbies. The fact that we send our hard earned money to cgc for our grades and to dealers for our books means we can person_without_enough_empathy about whatever we want. We give you our money we expect certain things in return.

 

Please don't mistake my posts for non-chalantness. They're not directed that way nor do I have a "je ne m'inquiète pas" attitude.

 

I'm not casting judgment b/c frankly, I do not know, nor do I have enough information to make an informed decision. That's all.

 

And yes, feel free to person_without_enough_empathy and moan about whatever you want. If you pay to play, you can complain. I know I do my fair share, but just know, it doesn't always go in my favor. I've had my share of success but have fallen right on my arse many a time w/CGC.

 

 

[marmat]

What kind of transparency? Even if another company were to crop up, there's not going to be transparency for proprietary reasons, the same as CGC.

 

I agree that there are some strange factors, most notably that some one would regrade a PLOD other than if they believed they could get it back in a blue label holder.

 

More importantly, it was very strategically done, when, as others have pointed out, the head grader was in Seattle and they were understaffed. It wasn't pressed nor did they have Matt look at it by sending through CCS first it appears.

At any rate, even if it was a rigged game, it won't satisfy folks who want an answer on the missed trim.

 

For those of you who remember the Ewert days, we probably just never learned how deep the rabbit hole went.

 

I would not say things like I've lost all confidence or I'll never trust CGC again, but I believe it is fair to expect either an explanation or an apology out of this sequence of events.

 

This means that CGC, on purpose or by accident, has two grading standars: one during con season and one during con off season.

This is a big flaw in their system, IMO

[Quicksilver Signs]

But CGC is giving out numbered grades and colored labels...in effect, definitive grades. And when something like this happens the answer will be "meh, we're only human." The two don't go together. It's one or the other.

 

Ok....if you've identified a problem, propose a solution??

 

You can't have a quantitative number on a qualitative grade. If you do, the whole thing is a farce. (And this is from someone who has 900 slabs in my personal collection. I LIKE grading. But I want transparency).

 

And apparently you can as the marketplace has accepted this since 1998 or whenever CGC was founded.

 

I like grading too and it does add an unbiased element to the business/hobby; but I also realize there are inherent flaws within the same business/hobby.

 

Most likely the biggest flaw it has is that it's not unbiased. Hard to believe that preferred customers don't get softer grading, which probably happened in this case. You do not want to anger your base. happy customer means repeat customer

 

While that makes sense, I cannot prove that anymore than you can. If it were to be proven, the entire House of Cards would collapse.

 

Very true. But it's standard practice in most businesses to give pref treatment to your best customers, I know I do it.

[Columbia Comics]

But CGC is giving out numbered grades and colored labels...in effect, definitive grades. And when something like this happens the answer will be "meh, we're only human." The two don't go together. It's one or the other.

 

Ok....if you've identified a problem, propose a solution??

 

You can't have a quantitative number on a qualitative grade. If you do, the whole thing is a farce. (And this is from someone who has 900 slabs in my personal collection. I LIKE grading. But I want transparency).

 

And apparently you can as the marketplace has accepted this since 1998 or whenever CGC was founded.

 

I like grading too and it does add an unbiased element to the business/hobby; but I also realize there are inherent flaws within the same business/hobby.

 

Most likely the biggest flaw it has is that it's not unbiased. Hard to believe that preferred customers don't get softer grading, which probably happened in this case. You do not want to anger your base. happy customer means repeat customer

 

While that makes sense, I cannot prove that anymore than you can. If it were to be proven, the entire House of Cards would collapse.

 

Very true. But it's standard practice in most businesses to give pref treatment to your best customers, I know I do it.

 

The key is most businesses..not all businesses. I believe when ethics and morals are a major part of your business, the smart money believe to keep your business healthy, you treat everyone the same.

 

That is, as long as you want the money coming in. The minute the ethics are called into question, bye bye business.

 

Just ask a disbarred lawyer how much truthfulness and ethics matter

[Ares]

I too have not read this entire thread but I get the jist of it.

 

Would it be more conducive to discretely "tattoo" the interior of the book with the CGC number to prevent this kind of fiasco? I think it would certainly prevent the books from going through the resubmittal and screwing up the census.

 

 

If i remember correctly, PSA/DNA has invisible ink. CGC could use that to barcode a book.

 

THEY BETTER NOT.

I don't want them adding chemicals to a book I won.

If I take it out and keep it raw why should they keep their mark on it

[stanley1883]

While an argument for overreaction certainly exists, the level of non-chalant, and it's no big deal coming from your post suggests you have your success tied to CGC at least in part.

 

For the "average" colector who does not own a store and isn't in the business of reselling, this is a big deal as we want our comics from a trusted source. These are our collectibles, not our inventory and theres a huge difference between the two.

 

Also I for one love having first world problems, thats why I love this country. I work so I can enjoy my hobbies. The fact that we send our hard earned money to cgc for our grades and to dealers for our books means we can person_without_enough_empathy about whatever we want. We give you our money we expect certain things in return.

 

Please don't mistake my posts for non-chalantness. They're not directed that way nor do I have a "je ne m'inquiète pas" attitude.

 

I'm not casting judgment b/c frankly, I do not know, nor do I have enough information to make an informed decision. That's all.

 

And yes, feel free to person_without_enough_empathy and moan about whatever you want. If you pay to play, you can complain. I know I do my fair share, but just know, it doesn't always go in my favor. I've had my share of success but have fallen right on my arse many a time w/CGC.

 

 

I never meant to imply you were judging.

 

Personally, IMO, I fail to see how anyone cannot view this as a "big deal." This is a very serious error that does not fall withing the realm of acceptable mistake by CGC and their graders simply because of the history of this incident. From Blue to Purple, that incident being highly scrutinized, and then back to blue within about a month is quite serious.

 

Granted we don't KNOW, 100% that it happened. However, I have seen no reason to discredit the OP, so as of know, it's plausible this occured. I'm not suggesting we boycott CGC, I'm suggesting we have nobody to blame but ourselves for their monopoly.

 

Sorry if I came across bull-headed. Friends?

[timfinz]

I too have not read this entire thread but I get the jist of it.

 

Would it be more conducive to discretely "tattoo" the interior of the book with the CGC number to prevent this kind of fiasco? I think it would certainly prevent the books from going through the resubmittal and screwing up the census.

 

 

If i remember correctly, PSA/DNA has invisible ink. CGC could use that to barcode a book.

 

I'm not sure barcoding with solve anything that happened here. There is nothing to stop someone from buying a slabbed book, cracking it out TRIMMING it or ironing it, reading it...or just handling it poorly. Anything could change the grade of the book before it's resubmitted.

 

It might be useful to deter theft but won't help the crack press fiddle resub issues.

I agree that it may not be useful for this situation currently, however if CGC were to implement the barcode/invisible ink linking the actual book to the system and not just the holder and make this information public then it might stabilize the somewhat fragile state that the hobby appears to be going through.

 

It would deter theft, and also deter the "resubmit and see if I can get a better grade" mentality. I think once a book as been submitted that there should not be the opportunity to crack it open and press, trim, resubmit etc. I mean George Costanza couldn't return his "flagged" book for a refund so why should a slabbed book allowed to be cracked and resubmitted for the sake of profit or cheating the other guy? After all the CGC graders are only human right?

 

Am I alone in this belief or is this what the hobby is turning to?

[jsilverjanet]

Seeing as how all you boardies have convicted CGC, you should gather your torches and pitchforks and head down to Sarasota.

 

This whole board/lemmings mentality is beyond dumb...I laugh at 95% of the posts in this thread....

 

 

As someone who only sells CGC'd books on his website I'd say you're hardly unbiased.

 

Staus quo much?

 

 

Not the status quo...just a realistic approach to an unrealistic expectation.

 

The fact that people here expect perfection from an imperfect product is laughable.

 

The only thing I agree w/in this entire thread is that CGC has a responsibility to handle the situation correctly...and that's on them and only them. Its not the responsibility of this community to determine what they should or shouldn't do..and casting stones before all the information is available is not only ignorant, but shows true colors by many.

 

Take it for what you want...if a mistake was made, is it the end of the world? No...my power still comes on, my fridge still keeps my food cold and I still have a roof over my head..

 

Its shameful all these first world problems us comic collectors and dealer's have...

 

this discussion has promise..

[jsilverjanet]

I would be very curious what the book would come back if it was graded a 4th time...