Insane press and flip Avengers 1.

[thehumantorch]

I have not been reading this thread given the analogous version in the General Section, but let me also post this update here in case some of you are not reading both threads:

 

I wanted to give everyone an update of where things stand with respect to this current situation. Be assured that the leadership of CGC, as well as CCG, has been seized with this issue since it was brought to their attention. CCG/CGC takes issues like this very seriously and they will be timely and properly addressed.

 

This is where the matter currently stands:

 

* Harshen Patel, CGC's Director of Operations, has been in communication with the submitter of the Avengers #1;

 

* The submitter only very recently created an account and to date has submitted fewer than 25 books;

 

* I have sent a formal letter to the submitter and respectfully requested that every submitted book be returned to CGC, with CGC to bear the costs of course, for purposes of oversight review;

 

* As it has in the past, if CGC made a mistake with any of the grades/restoration decisions, it will openly accept the responsibility and bear any reasonably associated costs that might be incurred by a book's owner/seller. CGC prides itself on integrity and professionalism, as well as its service to its customers and the community. As many of us have said repeatedly, the stronger CGC is and the more confidence collectors/dealers/investors have in it the better it is for our hobby;

 

* Situations such as this offer lessons learned for all of us. The message boards have once again proven to be very helpful and productive and demonstrate the continuing symbiosis that exists between CGC and the community. I want to reiterate again that I am available to anyone who wishes to raise a concern or question regarding CGC or its sister companies;

 

* Finally, I promise that we will continue to up-date the community where and when most appropriate. We will know more within the next forty-eight hours. Thanks for your continuing patience as we deal with this situation.

 

Appreciate that you're keeping us updated.

[rjpb]

A defect is a defect. A 4 inch crease on the back should count off just as much as a 4 inch crease on the back. Stress lines whether located on the spine, or 1/2 on the back cover are EXACTLY the same defect. Exactly the same length, exactly the same everything.....except placement.

 

Defects are not merely defects with comics--placement matters, even to you. I can't imagine you'd downgrade a 4-inch crease on an interior page the same way you would the same crease on the cover. Grading shouldn't ignore the function of a comic, and the design of the paper and the content as well follows that function--the exterior is for presentation and to grab your attention, and the interior is for absorbing the narrative of the story. Marvel and DC design the comic that way because that's how people read their comics, and we should grade with the same function in mind. The front cover's function is almost entirely display, so nit-picking for defects is important. The interior is for reading, so you grade with more of a mind for functionality and clarity with reading than for presentation--so interior tears or missing pieces are far more important than almost any type of creasing other than major crumples that interfere with the read. The back cover is for display, but it's not possible to deny that its importance is less than that of the front. We look at the back a fraction of the time we spend looking at the front, so its importance in grading should be accordingly less.

 

If you truly are of the "a defect is a defect" frame of mind, then you'd have to include the interior in that simplistic point of view. If you don't and instead agree the interior's presentation is less important since nobody really presents it for display, you should acknowledge the reduced role of the back cover in display as well. Back cover is far more important for presentation than the interior, but less so than the front. The back cover's content is usually designed to relay content as well--almost always in the form of advertisement--so even its content design usually contains more text and individual scenes than the front does. The back is often a mix of the front and interior in terms of design--it needs to capture attention more than interior panels are usually designed to, but it needs to communicate more complexity than a front cover does. Its primary function is about presentation, though, no doubt, but it also has to convey more content unlike the front.

 

I'm with you on this, but apparently some major players, including CGC, find considering back cover flaws a lesser evil than front cover flaws anathema, and believe that all flaws are equal and cumulative regardless of placement. Where there seems to be a logical inconsistency is when one side of the cover grades at least as well as the other, it's flaws no longer reduce the overall grade. If one is to be consistent with the theory that flaws are cumulative, and it doesn't matter where they are on the book, then a comic that appears to be say an 8.0 from the front, and an 8.0 from the back, should be considered the same as if all the flaws were on one side, dropping the grade somewhere below 8.0.

 

[Hulk44]

CGC needs to come out with a colored label for PRESSED books, period. Pressing is altering the comic book from original form , no matter how you see it...

 

 

 

 

 

[rjpb]

CGC needs to come out with a colored label for PRESSED books, period. Pressing is altering the comic book from original form , no matter how you see it...

 

 

 

 

 

In this case it was, but generally it is altering the book to somewhat back to its original form.

 

 

[Hulk44]

CGC needs to come out with a colored label for PRESSED books, period. Pressing is altering the comic book from original form , no matter how you see it...

 

 

 

 

 

In this case it was, but generally it is altering the book to somewhat back to its original form.

 

 

I understand what your saying, but if you look up the definition of Altering:

v. al·tered, al·ter·ing, al·ters. v.tr. 1. To change or make different; modify: altered my will. 2. To adjust (a garment) for a better fit. 3. To castrate or spay (an animal, ...

 

You see the first, #1) to change or make different ; TO MODIFY

 

[peewee22]

At the end of the day, CC (collectors comics) is going to make a 50+ grand windfall on a CGC loophole.

[Hulk44]

Not making it on me that's for damn sure...

[rjpb]

CGC needs to come out with a colored label for PRESSED books, period. Pressing is altering the comic book from original form , no matter how you see it...

 

 

 

 

 

In this case it was, but generally it is altering the book to somewhat back to its original form.

 

 

I understand what your saying, but if you look up the definition of Altering:

v. al·tered, al·ter·ing, al·ters. v.tr. 1. To change or make different; modify: altered my will. 2. To adjust (a garment) for a better fit. 3. To castrate or spay (an animal, ...

 

You see the first, #1) to change or make different ; TO MODIFY

 

Actually 2) To adjust (a comic) for a better grade, works for me too.

 

and perhaps 3) To castrate, might work as a reaction to this particular case.

 

 

 

 

 

[nmtg9]

CGC needs to come out with a colored label for PRESSED books, period. Pressing is altering the comic book from original form , no matter how you see it...

 

 

 

 

 

In this case it was, but generally it is altering the book to somewhat back to its original form.

 

 

I understand what your saying, but if you look up the definition of Altering:

v. al·tered, al·ter·ing, al·ters. v.tr. 1. To change or make different; modify: altered my will. 2. To adjust (a garment) for a better fit. 3. To castrate or spay (an animal, ...

 

You see the first, #1) to change or make different ; TO MODIFY

 

Actually 2) To adjust (a comic) for a better grade, works for me too.

 

and perhaps 3) To castrate, might work as a reaction to this particular case.

 

 

 

 

 

How about a red label for modded books? Including pressed and tape and glue - instead of adding notation to a blue label.?

[Cyclops]

Thanks...I do find it shocking that this person only sub 25 books...something smell funny here.

 

I got to 24 from two invoice numbers.

 

It's more than 25.

 

[Hulk44]

CGC needs to come out with a colored label for PRESSED books, period. Pressing is altering the comic book from original form , no matter how you see it...

 

 

 

 

 

In this case it was, but generally it is altering the book to somewhat back to its original form.

 

 

I understand what your saying, but if you look up the definition of Altering:

v. al·tered, al·ter·ing, al·ters. v.tr. 1. To change or make different; modify: altered my will. 2. To adjust (a garment) for a better fit. 3. To castrate or spay (an animal, ...

 

You see the first, #1) to change or make different ; TO MODIFY

 

Actually 2) To adjust (a comic) for a better grade, works for me too.

 

and perhaps 3) To castrate, might work as a reaction to this particular case.

 

 

 

 

 

How about a red label for modded books? Including pressed and tape and glue - instead of adding notation to a blue label.?

 

Perfect, a Red Label would work just fine, tough to implement now with all the pressed books out there, but hell, might as well start now..

[DeliBebek]

CGC needs to come out with a colored label for PRESSED books, period. Pressing is altering the comic book from original form , no matter how you see it...

 

 

 

 

 

In this case it was, but generally it is altering the book to somewhat back to its original form.

 

 

I understand what your saying, but if you look up the definition of Altering:

v. al·tered, al·ter·ing, al·ters. v.tr. 1. To change or make different; modify: altered my will. 2. To adjust (a garment) for a better fit. 3. To castrate or spay (an animal, ...

 

You see the first, #1) to change or make different ; TO MODIFY

 

Actually 2) To adjust (a comic) for a better grade, works for me too.

 

and perhaps 3) To castrate, might work as a reaction to this particular case.

 

 

 

 

 

How about a red label for modded books? Including pressed and tape and glue - instead of adding notation to a blue label.?

 

Perfect, a Red Label would work just fine, tough to implement now with all the pressed books out there, but hell, might as well start now..

Not to be snarky, but any comic that is in worse condition than when it was printed has been altered. Handling a book improperly alters it. That gets us back to the old question of intent. In cases like the one in this thread, intent seems obvious, but not every situation is so clear.

[bronze johnny]

What if CGC were to simply come out and say that the maximum grade any book that has undergone this process is a 3.0 - you'll see how quickly this process stops.

[bronze johnny]

A severe grading penalty is all that's required to solve this problem. I'm open to how low a grade threshold it needs to be.

[etanick]

Thanks...I do find it shocking that this person only sub 25 books...something smell funny here.

 

I got to 24 from two invoice numbers.

 

It's more than 25.

 

 

creating multiple accounts to minimize tracing of these books?

[sufunk]

Thanks...I do find it shocking that this person only sub 25 books...something smell funny here.

 

I got to 24 from two invoice numbers.

 

It's more than 25.

 

The guy has 100 CGC auctions going at the moment, many of which have the distinct reverse spine roll look. He also has over 2,000 comics sold on eBay in the last 12 months. Looks like about 1/3-1/2 were CGC books so i think its pretty safe to assume he's slabbed more than 25 books in his career thru various submitters.

[etanick]

it is more like 25 per month...or is it per week

[Timmay]

Cert numbers pulled from current on ebay.

 

Notice the 10569XXXXX series.

 

25 books my azz.

 

serial number range and total for that invoice number

 

 

1056932001 1056932005 5

1056940001 1056940007 7

1056943001 1056943011 11

1056945001 1056945005 5

1056946001 1056946012 12

1056947001 1056947012 12

1056954001 1056954011 11

1056956001 1056956011 11

1056963001 1056963015 15

1056967001 1056967007 7

1056969001 1056969009 9

1056970001 1056970014 14

1056971001 1056971015 15

1056972001 1056972006 6

1056973001 1056973015 15

1134925001 1134925012 12

1134926001 1134926012 12

 

total 179

 

[fantastic_four]

I'm with you on this, but apparently some major players, including CGC, find considering back cover flaws a lesser evil than front cover flaws anathema, and believe that all flaws are equal and cumulative regardless of placement.

 

Why are you including CGC in that camp? Numerous examples of back cover flaws receiving far less weight in overall grade tend to contradict the idea that they think the back and the front cover defects should bear equal weight. The entire idea of this thread and spine-shifting would be moot if CGC downgraded the front and back equally.

 

I used to know where Overstreet fell on how much to incorporate back cover defects into grading, but I've been too distant from grading for too long and I forget now. Anyone remember if Overstreet has mentioned how to weigh back cover defects in his grading guides?

[fantastic_four]

However, this opens up a can of worms as he is not taking the book apart, nor adding color touch, nor trimming, etc.

 

Forgive me if someone already addressed this in one of the two threads, but has anyone outlined exactly what process this guy must be using to do this? Are we sure it doesn't involve disassembly? I'm having trouble envisioning how he's doing this without removing the staples.