These slabs from Heritage look funky...

[CatskillMike]

166 celsius is equal to 331 fahrenheit; maybe this is the cause of confusion?

 

That's right, I used a semicolon in a sentence.

[Tony S]

166 Celsius is equal to 331 Fahrenheit; maybe this is the cause of confusion?

 

That's right, I used a semicolon in a sentence.

 

Probably is the source of confusion.It's just impossible the slabs got that hot in transit to the OP. Most likely Barex softens enough at a much lower temperature to distort than it's actual melting point.

 

If you've ever put hot water in an polyethylene milk jug, you've seen this take place. My water temperature is set at 160 degrees Fahrenheit. Which is well below the melt point (350'ish degrees Fahrenheit) of high density polyethylene - what milk jugs are made of. After exposure to hot water of 160 degrees, the milk jug will substantially soften and if exposed for very long deform.

[jimjum12]

 

I'm afraid to admit I have some experience with this. I had very nearly $2K worth of books melted on a warm sunny day while they were displayed in a showcase at an outdoor market. They were under a UV protected tent, and not under direct sunlight. I wondered at the time how this could have happened as barex is supposed to have a melting point 317 degrees C and it couldn't have been hotter than 40 degrees with the humidity that day. All the books in Mylar in the same display were fine.

 

While we will probably never know exactly how this took place, your situation reopens the possibility that slabs could get damaged during transit (i.e. in a really warm delivery truck on a hot day). I don't know how Heritage allowed these to slip through as this kind of melt is pretty noticeable when you see the books in hand and shouldn't have been sold in this state.

 

166 degree C melt point

 

...... while excessive heat in transit would seem like the only explanation.....I can't help but wonder why we haven't seen more examples like this brought to light after so many CGC books have shipped over the years, Maybe a scenario where someone was downtown all day, say with two hookers, Cheetah the Chimp, and 6 gallons of whipped cream..... while the books sat on the stoop in the hot sun GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

..... all kidding aside, I've opened packages during the summer where I could literally feel the heat rush out of the box.....

[nearmint]

 

I'm afraid to admit I have some experience with this. I had very nearly $2K worth of books melted on a warm sunny day while they were displayed in a showcase at an outdoor market. They were under a UV protected tent, and not under direct sunlight. I wondered at the time how this could have happened as barex is supposed to have a melting point 317 degrees C and it couldn't have been hotter than 40 degrees with the humidity that day. All the books in Mylar in the same display were fine.

 

While we will probably never know exactly how this took place, your situation reopens the possibility that slabs could get damaged during transit (i.e. in a really warm delivery truck on a hot day). I don't know how Heritage allowed these to slip through as this kind of melt is pretty noticeable when you see the books in hand and shouldn't have been sold in this state.

 

166 degree C melt point

 

Interesting because another source said 317. Nonetheless, it's still hard to believe a slab can warm up during shipping even to 166 degrees.

 

Most of these slabs are getting shipped by air at some point. I would assume when they unload the airplane, the boxes are sitting in some sort of transport vehicle on the runway. I would imagine if the air temp is over 90 degrees F, and it is very sunny that the tarmac could heat up the boxes even more, possibly causing extremely high temps inside the transport vehicle, thus melting the inner well.

 

It just hasn't been that hot in so cal for the last few weeks.

[JazzMan]

 

I'm afraid to admit I have some experience with this. I had very nearly $2K worth of books melted on a warm sunny day while they were displayed in a showcase at an outdoor market. They were under a UV protected tent, and not under direct sunlight. I wondered at the time how this could have happened as barex is supposed to have a melting point 317 degrees C and it couldn't have been hotter than 40 degrees with the humidity that day. All the books in Mylar in the same display were fine.

 

While we will probably never know exactly how this took place, your situation reopens the possibility that slabs could get damaged during transit (i.e. in a really warm delivery truck on a hot day). I don't know how Heritage allowed these to slip through as this kind of melt is pretty noticeable when you see the books in hand and shouldn't have been sold in this state.

 

166 degree C melt point

 

Interesting because another source said 317. Nonetheless, it's still hard to believe a slab can warm up during shipping even to 166 degrees.

 

Most of these slabs are getting shipped by air at some point. I would assume when they unload the airplane, the boxes are sitting in some sort of transport vehicle on the runway. I would imagine if the air temp is over 90 degrees F, and it is very sunny that the tarmac could heat up the boxes even more, possibly causing extremely high temps inside the transport vehicle, thus melting the inner well.

 

It just hasn't been that hot in so cal for the last few weeks.

 

If they came from HA then they probably originated in Dallas. It hasn't been that hot here until this past weekend. But it didn't get to 90 until Wednesday. Regardless, if it is 90 outside, inside a car it can be 150 degrees after 5 or 6 hours - I would presume something similar for a cargo hold.

 

I want to believe that it can't be 'only' that. There has to be a change in the chemicals or technique to make the inner well. Otherwise this would have been much more widespread and consistent.

[jaeldubyoo]

 

I'm afraid to admit I have some experience with this. I had very nearly $2K worth of books melted on a warm sunny day while they were displayed in a showcase at an outdoor market. They were under a UV protected tent, and not under direct sunlight. I wondered at the time how this could have happened as barex is supposed to have a melting point 317 degrees C and it couldn't have been hotter than 40 degrees with the humidity that day. All the books in Mylar in the same display were fine.

 

While we will probably never know exactly how this took place, your situation reopens the possibility that slabs could get damaged during transit (i.e. in a really warm delivery truck on a hot day). I don't know how Heritage allowed these to slip through as this kind of melt is pretty noticeable when you see the books in hand and shouldn't have been sold in this state.

 

166 degree C melt point

 

Interesting because another source said 317. Nonetheless, it's still hard to believe a slab can warm up during shipping even to 166 degrees.

 

The difference is Celsius and Fahrenheit. 166C=330.8F.

 

[jpepx78]

It is obvious from the pictures, the slabs were exposed to high heat but it is highly unlikely they were exposed to the Barex (acrylonitrile-methyl acrylate copolymer) melting point temperatures of 166 deg C (331 deg F) otherwise you would have melted plastic. The melting point is the temperature when a solid turns into a liquid. The "heat deflection temperature" is more important since that is the temperature at which a polymer or plastic sample deforms under a specified load. In the Barex data sheet,

http://www.ineos.com/Show-document/?Grade=Barex+210+Extrusion+Grade&BU=INEOS+Barex&DocumentType=Technical+Data+Sheet

the heat deflection temp is 77 deg C (171 deg F) for 455 kPa (66 psi) and 69 deg C (156 deg F) for 1820 kPa (264 psi). To get a sense of that temperature, hot coffee is served at 70-80 deg C (158-175 deg F). Barex is a poor heat conductor and its thermal conductivity is equivalent to wood or brick so it is unlikely for heat conduction to travel from the bottom to top of the slab to cause rippling. Look under Polymethylmethacrylate in this chart for a comparison.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-conductivity-d_429.html

Air is actually an insulator and not a conductor of heat.

A more likely scenario is that the slabs were in the bottom box on top of or next to some hot equipment or motor for an extended time to cause rippling.

A typical car engine temperature is around 90-110 deg C.

 

 

[vaultkeeper]

I've conducted some thermal testing on the Barex inner-wells in the lab today. My results agree with the above post.

 

75 deg C (167 deg F) Barex is soft and pliable, but not rippling.

 

77 deg C (170.6 deg F) Barex is rippling, but not laminating.

 

80 deg C (176 deg F) Barex is laminating to the book.

[Point Five]

Agree with Jazzman. If inner well melting just from transit storage is a thing, it's beyond strange that we've never seen it before.

 

 

[Bomber-Bob]

This is terrible. Above all, there is no way you should keep these books, they are not what you paid for. Just focusing on the Cap, look at the top of the inner well where the actual comic is sitting. The structure of the very top of the inner well has changed. The top of the inner well looks like it is laying on top of the book, no gap where the auction pic had a small gap. I don't know what you call them but the expansion grooves on the top corners look melted. It looks like the upper right corner is completely gone ? Terrible. I am sorry this happened to you. Even though it may not be their fault, this reflects bad on Heritage. What's preventing it from happening again ?

 

 

 

[lizards2]

Maybe a scenario where someone was downtown all day, say with two hookers, Cheetah the Chimp, and 6 gallons of whipped cream..... while the books sat on the stoop in the hot sun GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

It's like you're watching over my shoulder sometimes...,

[kav]

Wow some good science in this thread

[cheetah]

I believe all the slab bing products are made in China. It 's not to difficult to imagine CGC getting materials made with something substandard.

[Mark 1]

This is terrible. Above all, there is no way you should keep these books, they are not what you paid for. Just focusing on the Cap, look at the top of the inner well where the actual comic is sitting. The structure of the very top of the inner well has changed. The top of the inner well looks like it is laying on top of the book, no gap where the auction pic had a small gap. I don't know what you call them but the expansion grooves on the top corners look melted. It looks like the upper right corner is completely gone ? Terrible. I am sorry this happened to you. Even though it may not be their fault, this reflects bad on Heritage. What's preventing it from happening again ?

 

 

 

 

To my eyes, this is a heat and melting issue. You can see the buckling of the plastic in the top picture on the sides where it wasn't before.

 

Perhaps these books sat in a hot truck before delivery. Really stinks to see that happen to some sweet books.

 

[Sqeggs]

I believe all the slabbing products are made in China. It 's not to difficult to imagine CGC getting materials made with something substandard.

 

I hope we aren't about to see replay of the puddling problem of a while back. This would actually be worse, particularly if it resulted from fairly standard shipping procedures during summer temperatures. Let's hope it was, as someone suggested, a one-off exposure to hot machinery or some other unusual circumstance.

[nearmint]

Just for fun, here's the journey from Dallas to me.

 

June 4, 2015 4:28 am NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658 Arrived at Post Office

June 3, 2015 11:49 pm ANAHEIM, CA 92899 Departed USPS Facility

June 3, 2015 11:46 pm ANAHEIM, CA 92899 Arrived at USPS Facility

June 1, 2015 11:01 pm COPPELL, TX 75099 Departed USPS Facility

June 1, 2015 10:41 pm COPPELL, TX 75099 Arrived at USPS Origin Facility

June 1, 2015 9:26 pm DALLAS, TX 75260 Accepted at USPS Origin Sort Facility

June 1, 2015 7:30 pm DALLAS, TX 75260 Shipment Accepted

[Mark 1]

All it takes for a box to bake in the sun at 85 degrees which is what it was on June 1 in Dallas.

[nearmint]

I'm just glad that they're common books. My shipments from Heritage are normally nice Gold and Silver Age. I bought these on a lark, the Cap because it's one of the first Marvels I ever purchased as an 11-year-old, and the Batman just because I've always loved the cover. Had a Gold or Silver Age book been unintentionally laminated, that would be a real shame.

[jpepx78]

 

Actually Barex was made in only one place by INEOS USA in Lima Ohio. What I was surprised to learn was that the company announced the shutdown of the only Barex production plant for early 2015 in October 2014 since it was a money losing business. Some packaging companies have ordered up to 3 years of Barex supplies at the shutdown announcement while looking at Barex replacements. Barex is widely used in food, pharmaceutical and medical packaging.

http://www.goex.com/breaking-news-regarding-barex/

 

I don't know how much Barex CGC has left for slabs but I'm wondering if they used a Barex replacement for some slabs. The replacement plastic could have slightly different properties and might account for some of the slab defects (puddling, waviness) people have seen recently.

http://www.pmpnews.com/news/industry-evaluating-barex-alternatives-150204

 

 

[Tony S]

Actually Barex was made in only one place by INEOS USA in Lima Ohio. What I was surprised to learn was that the company announced the shutdown of the only Barex production plant for early 2015 in October 2014 since it was a money losing business. Some packaging companies have ordered up to 3 years of Barex supplies at the shutdown announcement while looking at Barex replacements. Barex is widely used in food, pharmaceutical and medical packaging.

http://www.goex.com/breaking-news-regarding-barex/

 

I don't know how much Barex CGC has left for slabs but I'm wondering if they used a Barex replacement for some slabs. The replacement plastic could have slightly different properties and might account for some of the slab defects (puddling, waviness) people have seen recently.

http://www.pmpnews.com/news/industry-evaluating-barex-alternatives-150204

 

 

WOW! That is....a big deal. CGC and PGX both use Barex for the inner holder. The new company we can't mention by name elected to go with PET (polyethylene terephthalate), the same stuff your plastic coke bottles are made of. Chemically, it's polyester film and if during manufacturing it's stretched you have Mylar. If some other manufacturer doesn't step in, CGC is at some point going to have to go to a different material for the inner well.

 

BTW, the softening point of PET is listed as 82C/180F.