Pressing

[VintageComics]

Mark, I don't wanna sound like a [#@$%!!!], but the issue really is about $$$, and since CGC took the bull by the horns and decided THEY will tell us what is restored and what is not, AND what grade a book is, we can either buy their books as they grade them, or not. The majority have trusted them ever since....This is not "passing the buck" as mentioned last week in this thread...this is what we pay them to do. It is their job to be tried and tested as they have opened their doors for this very purpose. It is their business. You cannot always get a history of a book....will you pass on a book that you love, if there is not a replacement and no history available? The system is formed in such a way that there MUST be shortcomings in the system. Until the spirit of man changes, the law will always have loop holes. There is no perfection by the law....now where did i read that?

[DiceX]

I would have to ask would Mark has still bought the book knowing that is was once a Restored 6.5 and now a 5.5. Without ever seeing it out of the holder and getting a Neutral opinion that the work was really removed. Or does this fall under the "Mile High color touch standards" or the "tiny dot of glue" described on the back of the cgc holder that leaves tiny to the determination of cgc grading the book. Last time I looked, glue was glue, not how much was applied. Same with color touch. My Silver age books with tiny dots get purple, why can't they fall under the Mile high grading standard?

 

I purchased the book with full knowledge of its history. I made an informed decision and one that I remain quite content in having made. Had I purchased it without such knowledge, and knowing myself, I may very well have demanded my money back, particularly if I discovered that the seller knew of the history and did not reveal it. I almost always question a dealer/seller about a book's history, especially when we are talking about spending five figures or more.

 

I cannot answer your other questions. Those are for CGC to answer. In fact, if you read through some of my prior posts (either on the pressing threads or the pedigree discussions in the GA section), I asked many of these same questions of CGC. Why does "slight color touch" get a blue label? What distinguishes "slight" from an amount not so slight? Same thing with glue. And why is there an obvious difference in grading a GA book versus a SA book, yet the same ten point scale is utilized without a stated policy distinction? A CGC 8.0 Superman #22 probably does not look or have comparable defects as a CGC 8.0 Star Wars #1.

 

I do not set CGC or community grading policies. As a member of the community I voice my opinion as to what I believe those policies should be, and perhaps changes are made if others agree with me in sufficient numbers.

 

As a "dealer/collector", I set my own policies, and those policies - unlike some other dealers - are transparent.

 

Again, the issue in this debate - whether it involves pressing, restoration, or the removal of restoration - is not whether we like it or not, or whether the value of a book is impacted or not, it is about DISCLOSURE.

 

So, are you selling the book disclosing that it used to be in a purple slab?

Sorry if this point has been answered and I missed it.

[FFB]

So, are you selling the book disclosing that it used to be in a purple slab?

Sorry if this point has been answered and I missed it.

 

He just said that the book is not for sale and he hopes it won't be for a very long time, but that when he does, he'll give full disclosure.

[esquirecomics]

all the reputable dealers I buy from will already take returns for restored books, whether they knew or not beforehand. So the same will hold true (I imagine) if I determined that a book was pressed... or strongly suspected it. But Im a pretty good customer so perhaps I get "special treatment"... But most dealers take the books back to keep the issue quiet, and keep disgruntled buyers from running to chat boards like this and ruinging their good name.

 

And as far as returning comics that are less than advertised, what else is it about than getting ones money back? The "principle" involved in righting a wrong? Doesnt that mean getting one's money back??

 

You may ultimately be proven right about a dealer's willingness to refund your money if pressing can be proven, particularly if you have a significant long-standing relationship with that dealer. But I would not rely on that possibility for now.

 

For one thing, many dealers will openly tell you that returns will be accepted if the book is found to be restored, b/c they are telling you that it is unrestored when they sell it. Additionally, the majority of dealers will not, according to their stated policies, accept returns on CGC books. Only a small minority of us allow returns of CGC books.

 

And if a dealer was willing to allow a return of a subsequently discovered pressed book, then they should have no objection to affirming that they have no personal knowledge the book is pressed in the first place.

 

As far as what I mean by principle, I am definitely not talking just about money. I am talking about deterrence. We don't want just an individual transaction taking place that no one knows about which just enables the dealer to then go and pull the same tactic on some other unsuspecting buyer. We want sellers to know that there will be wide-ranging consequences that impacts their business.

 

Years ago I won two major auctions on e-bay for key books. The seller auctioned 5 books in total and two other buyers won those. I soon came to realize the auctions were fraudulent, and I declined to pay. I did not lose a dime. I warned the other two buyers, and one listened. The other lost $11,000. I then spent the next year helping the victim and working with law enforcement to prosecute the seller. It probably cost me $10,000 in my time when applying my hourly rate. I had told the seller that if I found out he defrauded anyone, I would make sure he would regret it. That is the principle I am speaking about. Perhaps some share this principle, perhaps not, but it is the way I conduct myself.

[skybolt]

Out of curiosity, who are the other lawyers on these boards besides FFB and esquirecomics?

[jimm94]

Foolkiller, tth2, jeffreykli, Captain_Tripps (before he became a full-time dealer)...

[DiceX]

So, are you selling the book disclosing that it used to be in a purple slab?

Sorry if this point has been answered and I missed it.

 

He just said that the book is not for sale and he hopes it won't be for a very long time, but that when he does, he'll give full disclosure.

 

 

Hypothetical scenario here...

Let's say a "Magic 8-ball" is invented that can detect pressing.

A book is found in a collection that was pressed, and bought from a seller that had signed this "pressing pledge".

Let's also say that the seller didn't press it himself. It was pressed when he purchased it. Since the 8-ball didn't exist when the transaction happened, why should the seller be at fault?

 

This scenario could, and most certainly would happen, should sellers decide to get on board with this treaty.

I guess I didn't make myself clear in my earlier posts, but this is one of the reasons I think this is a lost cause. Not that I don't applaud you guys for your effort.

[skybolt]

So, are you selling the book disclosing that it used to be in a purple slab?

Sorry if this point has been answered and I missed it.

 

He just said that the book is not for sale and he hopes it won't be for a very long time, but that when he does, he'll give full disclosure.

 

 

Hypothetical scenario here...

Let's say a "Magic 8-ball" is invented that can detect pressing.

A book is found in a collection that was pressed, and bought from a seller that had signed this "pressing pledge".

Let's also say that the seller didn't press it himself. It was pressed when he purchased it. Since the 8-ball didn't exist when the transaction happened, why should the seller be at fault?

 

This scenario could, and most certainly would happen, should sellers decide to get on board with this treaty.

I guess I didn't make myself clear in my earlier posts, but this is one of the reasons I think this is a lost cause. Not that I don't applaud you guys for your effort.

 

I agree. If dealers sign a "non-pressing pledge" form, then they could be open to several lawsuits, or at the very least board bashing in cases like this. No one will believe that they had no knowledge of the book being pressed. For goodness sake, the damn thing could have been pressed in 1982.

[esquirecomics]

Mark, I don't wanna sound like a [#@$%!!!], but the issue really is about $$$, and since CGC took the bull by the horns and decided THEY will tell us what is restored and what is not, AND what grade a book is, we can either buy their books as they grade them, or not. The majority have trusted them ever since....This is not "passing the buck" as mentioned last week in this thread...this is what we pay them to do. It is their job to be tried and tested as they have opened their doors for this very purpose. It is their business. You cannot always get a history of a book....will you pass on a book that you love, if there is not a replacement and no history available? The system is formed in such a way that there MUST be shortcomings in the system. Until the spirit of man changes, the law will always have loop holes. There is no perfection by the law....now where did i read that?

 

I'm not clear as to where we might be disagreeing. I've said repeatedly above that this is all about $$$$. CGC is a business. Some of the decisions it is making are purely business decisions that would affect its bottom line if it decided otherwise. Same with dealers and the policies they set with respect to sales and disclosure. I run several of my own businesses. I can understand these decisions. But just like a client will ask me about what legal services I intend to provide them and the expectations, the same applies to the comic field wherein I ask questions about an item I am purchasing.

 

I pay CGC primarily to (1) detect restoration and (2) assign their subjective grade. I don't need them for (2). I can do that. But CGC is the so-called independent third party and it minimizes any grading dispute between myself and a buyer. Of course, as I said above, unlike most dealers, I'll still let you return a CGC book b/c we all know that sometimes their grading is off too. I want my customers to be satisfied with their purchases.

 

I need CGC to determine (1) b/c I have no expertise in that area. I rely on CGC for this skill. I have rarely heard any complaints about CGC involving this category.

 

Of course obtaining the history of a book is not always possible (I certainly don't know the history of most of the books in my inventory, but I can tell you that I have not pressed or restored any of them), but then that is factored into the informed decision a buyer must make. Caveat emptor. If a seller tells me they don't know the history of a book, and I later somehow find out that the person who sold the book to the seller had the book restored (to make the example simple), but the person I bought the book from didn't know, it is not the seller's fault. However, if I find out that in fact it was the seller himself who had the book restored and he had lied to me to induce me to purchase the book, that is fraud and legally actionable. The same can be applied to pressing. Community standards will play a role, both in setting the value of the book and the legal ability to seek a remedy, if one exists.

 

Finally, just b/c CGC runs its business a certain way does not mean that we in the community cannot influence how it operates. CGC is a service orientated entity. It relies on customers. We are the customers. And we are voicing our opinion. It may have an impact, it may not. As someone said earlier on a post, if CGC does not listen to the changing community view on the issue of pressing, it may very well be that a newly created competitive company does. That is how our system takes care of shortcomings.

[esquirecomics]

Out of curiosity, who are the other lawyers on these boards besides FFB and esquirecomics?

 

There is actually an entire thread on this topic that was active in Jan/Feb.

[FFB]

Out of curiosity, who are the other lawyers on these boards besides FFB and esquirecomics?

 

There is actually an entire thread on this topic that was active in Jan/Feb.

 

Yep, it's right here.

[esquirecomics]

So, are you selling the book disclosing that it used to be in a purple slab?

Sorry if this point has been answered and I missed it.

 

He just said that the book is not for sale and he hopes it won't be for a very long time, but that when he does, he'll give full disclosure.

 

 

Hypothetical scenario here...

Let's say a "Magic 8-ball" is invented that can detect pressing.

A book is found in a collection that was pressed, and bought from a seller that had signed this "pressing pledge".

Let's also say that the seller didn't press it himself. It was pressed when he purchased it. Since the 8-ball didn't exist when the transaction happened, why should the seller be at fault?

 

This scenario could, and most certainly would happen, should sellers decide to get on board with this treaty.

I guess I didn't make myself clear in my earlier posts, but this is one of the reasons I think this is a lost cause. Not that I don't applaud you guys for your effort.

 

I agree. If dealers sign a "non-pressing pledge" form, then they could be open to several lawsuits, or at the very least board bashing in cases like this. No one will believe that they had no knowledge of the book being pressed. For goodness sake, the damn thing could have been pressed in 1982.

 

We have to be reasonable on some of these issues (not saying the above posting is unreasonable, I am speaking generally). No one is looking to punish, sue or hold accountable people for actions of others they had no knowledge of, or go after someone based on speculation or theory.

 

The old adage that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link is applicable here. There are ostensibly two documents we have discussed.

 

First, a non-pressing pledge. That is, the dealer asserts that he/she is not pressing books now or in the future or - and this may be a separate matter - knowingly selling pressed books. The key is "knowingly". We are looking for intentional fraud, not negligence (though there may be an argument in that direction depending upon the circumstances).

 

Second, is an executed document provided when you purchase the book that indicates, to the best knowledge of the seller, that the book has not been pressed. If the seller has no idea of the history of the book, he/she can only speak for himself.

 

It may be that the community wishes to apply a different standard when it comes to, say color touch, than for pressing. Given the significant differences in the difficulty in detecting both forms of restoration, dealers who don't know of prior pressing may or may not need to or should not have to refund the purchase money whereas those who unknowingly sell color touched books as unrestored should.

[Aman619]

Years ago I won two major auctions on e-bay for key books. The seller auctioned 5 books in total and two other buyers won those. I soon came to realize the auctions were fraudulent, and I declined to pay. I did not lose a dime. I warned the other two buyers, and one listened. The other lost $11,000. I then spent the next year helping the victim and working with law enforcement to prosecute the seller. It probably cost me $10,000 in my time when applying my hourly rate. I had told the seller that if I found out he defrauded anyone, I would make sure he would regret it. That is the principle I am speaking about. Perhaps some share this principle, perhaps not, but it is the way I conduct myself.

 

this is a great example that proves both our points here! For you it proves youre a straight up guy, not in it for the money alone but to do whats right. For me, it proves my point about the limitations and ultimate failure of using "the law" to get restitution. In your example with you as the attorney on the case (and I am assuming your rates are not much different from other lawyers) I would need to be suing over a BOOK I PAID MORE THAN 10K for to just to see dime one on in my "quest for justice!" Youd get it ALL and Id still be out the 10 grand

 

of course, Id love to be able to call you to do it for free for me like you did for that other guy. Guess Id better start agreeing with you pretty quick!!!

[Aman619]

Of course, as I said above, unlike most dealers, I'll still let you return a CGC book b/c we all know that sometimes their grading is off too.

 

as a side issue, I always thought that many ebay sellers say that CGC books are non-returnable as only a way to cut down on shipping costs in those cases where a buyer just wants to return a book for minor reasons. To try to make as many sales as possible STICK once they are consummated.

 

If I were a power seller I sure as heck would want to increase my percentage of sticky sales. And relying on the certitude of a CGC label seems a reasonable posture to take since by and large, we all agree that they are professionally impartial, as opposed to buying raw books where we KNOW theres a high probability that teh sellers has overgraded the comic. Early on I think this was inevitible and fine... but now with SCS, it might be a little tilted toward the sellers favor.

[esquirecomics]

Years ago I won two major auctions on e-bay for key books. The seller auctioned 5 books in total and two other buyers won those. I soon came to realize the auctions were fraudulent, and I declined to pay. I did not lose a dime. I warned the other two buyers, and one listened. The other lost $11,000. I then spent the next year helping the victim and working with law enforcement to prosecute the seller. It probably cost me $10,000 in my time when applying my hourly rate. I had told the seller that if I found out he defrauded anyone, I would make sure he would regret it. That is the principle I am speaking about. Perhaps some share this principle, perhaps not, but it is the way I conduct myself.

 

this is a great example that proves both our points here! For you it proves youre a straight up guy, not in it for the money alone but to do whats right. For me, it proves my point about the limitations and ultimate failure of using "the law" to get restitution. In your example with you as the attorney on the case (and I am assuming your rates are not much different from other lawyers) I would need to be suing over a BOOK I PAID MORE THAN 10K for to just to see dime one on in my "quest for justice!" Youd get it ALL and Id still be out the 10 grand

 

of course, Id love to be able to call you to do it for free for me like you did for that other guy. Guess Id better start agreeing with you pretty quick!!!

 

Don't get me started on the limitations of the legal system! Believe me, I am one of the most cynical attorneys around about what can be achieved given that I sue the govt day in and day out.

 

Yes, you are absolutely right that part of the equation in determing whether to sue is the cost of recovery. And sometimes it doesn't make sense to pursue legal recourse b/c it is simply not cost effective.

 

That being said, keep in mind three points.

 

First, you can always represent yourself in small claims court. The maximum you can recover varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but it is sometimes as high as $5,000. It is very inexpensive to do and you don't need an attorney (though it is always preferable for a variety of reasons).

 

Second, depending upon who the dealer is, there is the possibility of bringing a class action or at least filing a suit with multiple plaintiffs who would share costs/fees. I have done that in cases against the FBI/Secret Service for pre-employment polygraph use and the Defense Dept/FDA regarding the anthrax vaccine. Significantly cuts down costs.

 

Finally, at the very least, you can file a complaint with the relevant better business bureau. I'm not sure what impact that really has, but I know I didn't buy from a furniture company once b/c we found out it had numerous complaints against it.

[FFB]

Years ago I won two major auctions on e-bay for key books. The seller auctioned 5 books in total and two other buyers won those. I soon came to realize the auctions were fraudulent, and I declined to pay. I did not lose a dime. I warned the other two buyers, and one listened. The other lost $11,000. I then spent the next year helping the victim and working with law enforcement to prosecute the seller. It probably cost me $10,000 in my time when applying my hourly rate. I had told the seller that if I found out he defrauded anyone, I would make sure he would regret it. That is the principle I am speaking about. Perhaps some share this principle, perhaps not, but it is the way I conduct myself.

 

this is a great example that proves both our points here! For you it proves youre a straight up guy, not in it for the money alone but to do whats right. For me, it proves my point about the limitations and ultimate failure of using "the law" to get restitution. In your example with you as the attorney on the case (and I am assuming your rates are not much different from other lawyers) I would need to be suing over a BOOK I PAID MORE THAN 10K for to just to see dime one on in my "quest for justice!" Youd get it ALL and Id still be out the 10 grand

 

of course, Id love to be able to call you to do it for free for me like you did for that other guy. Guess Id better start agreeing with you pretty quick!!!

 

Don't get me started on the limitations of the legal system! Believe me, I am one of the most cynical attorneys around about what can be achieved given that I sue the govt day in and day out.

 

Yes, you are absolutely right that part of the equation in determing whether to sue is the cost of recovery. And sometimes it doesn't make sense to pursue legal recourse b/c it is simply not cost effective.

 

That being said, keep in mind three points.

 

First, you can always represent yourself in small claims court. The maximum you can recover varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but it is sometimes as high as $5,000. It is very inexpensive to do and you don't need an attorney (though it is always preferable for a variety of reasons).

 

Second, depending upon who the dealer is, there is the possibility of bringing a class action or at least filing a suit with multiple plaintiffs who would share costs/fees. I have done that in cases against the FBI/Secret Service for pre-employment polygraph use and the Defense Dept/FDA regarding the anthrax vaccine. Significantly cuts down costs.

 

Finally, at the very least, you can file a complaint with the relevant better business bureau. I'm not sure what impact that really has, but I know I didn't buy from a furniture company once b/c we found out it had numerous complaints against it.

 

If the seller sells in California (even if only over the internet), you can sue for unlawful or unfair business practices under Business & Professions Code section 17200. As long as you suffered monetary harm, you can sue on your own behalf and on behalf of all those similarly situated in California. The problem is, almost no seller will have done enough business in California to make such a broad suit financially feasible.

[BassGMan]

Geez, there sure has been some great reading in this thread and I'm becoming alot more educated on this topic. Nothing really to add from my point of view except for one interesting tidbit that I remember from about a year ago.

 

Speculating on the Punisher movie I bought a ton of ASM #129s from a particular dealer who had many to offer. I had them all CGCed (maybe eight of them) with varying grades from 7.0 to 9.0. They all sold for about the same market value as all the other slabbed #129s at the time. But there was one copy that received a 7.5 that I strongly disagreed with. Looked more like a 9.2 to me as I guess I did not consider several non-color breaking creases on the cover to diminish the grade so severly. But what could I do? I still believed that this 7.5 in a CGC slab would sell for more than if I cracked it and sold it as 9.2 raw. PLUS, apparently I was wrong on the grade anyway and I wouldn't want to overgrade the book. So... I sold the book as is, the most beautiful 7.5 I had ever seen, and I surely mentioned my opinion of the book and how it looked undergraded to me in the slab. I noted the non-color breaking creases in the book so that the potential buyers would know what the defects were as they could not be seen in the scan. Well, what do ya' know? That book sold for about $375 whereas other 7.5s at the time were selling for about $200-$225. My guess? Potential pressers looking for a good flip. OR, maybe someone believing my opinion of an undergrade and hoping to resubmit. I believe the former as this would have made the perfect pressing candidate. Months ago, when I first started becoming aware of this topic I remembered this auction and then realized that unfortunately it was too late to see who the buyer was as it had been at least six months previous that the auction closed.

[FlyingDonut]

Of course, as I said above, unlike most dealers, I'll still let you return a CGC book b/c we all know that sometimes their grading is off too.

 

as a side issue, I always thought that many ebay sellers say that CGC books are non-returnable as only a way to cut down on shipping costs in those cases where a buyer just wants to return a book for minor reasons. To try to make as many sales as possible STICK once they are consummated.

 

If I were a power seller I sure as heck would want to increase my percentage of sticky sales. And relying on the certitude of a CGC label seems a reasonable posture to take since by and large, we all agree that they are professionally impartial, as opposed to buying raw books where we KNOW theres a high probability that teh sellers has overgraded the comic. Early on I think this was inevitible and fine... but now with SCS, it might be a little tilted toward the sellers favor.

 

Absolutely not. I offer NO returns on CGC books for any other reason except the case is broken. If you have a concern with the grading of the book, or anything else with the book for that matter, that isn't my problem. I didn't grade the book, nor did I make any claims as to anything about the book. If you think a book is overgraded when it comes back with a 9.4, for example, your complaint is with CGC, not with me.

[esquirecomics]

Of course, as I said above, unlike most dealers, I'll still let you return a CGC book b/c we all know that sometimes their grading is off too.

 

as a side issue, I always thought that many ebay sellers say that CGC books are non-returnable as only a way to cut down on shipping costs in those cases where a buyer just wants to return a book for minor reasons. To try to make as many sales as possible STICK once they are consummated.

 

If I were a power seller I sure as heck would want to increase my percentage of sticky sales. And relying on the certitude of a CGC label seems a reasonable posture to take since by and large, we all agree that they are professionally impartial, as opposed to buying raw books where we KNOW theres a high probability that teh sellers has overgraded the comic. Early on I think this was inevitible and fine... but now with SCS, it might be a little tilted toward the sellers favor.

 

Absolutely not. I offer NO returns on CGC books for any other reason except the case is broken. If you have a concern with the grading of the book, or anything else with the book for that matter, that isn't my problem. I didn't grade the book, nor did I make any claims as to anything about the book. If you think a book is overgraded when it comes back with a 9.4, for example, your complaint is with CGC, not with me.

 

It is certainly a reasonable posture to take, and the attitude expressed by FlyingDonut perfectly reflects it. However, that is not my attitude.

 

I want all my customers to be satisfied 100% of the time. The books I am selling are typically four to six figure books. I want return customers. If someone spends $30k on one of my books, I absolutely want them to be happy with the transaction. Frankly, I don't expect many returns so why not offer it as an added bonus.

 

Scans do not tell all. Scans can be manipulated. Scans do not always reflect the beauty or ugliness of a book, notwithstanding the grade established by CGC. I practice what I preach. In the perfect world, I would want the opportunity to return the book. Well, Esquirecomics.com will be as close to the perfect world as possible. If you buy a CGC book from me, and then you don't like it, just return it (of course, if you do it more than twice I may not sell to you again).

 

The buyer, of course, buys for all expenses associated with the return of the book, which must be in the same condition (which presumably won't be difficult since most of my books are CGC'd).

[Aman619]

Of course, as I said above, unlike most dealers, I'll still let you return a CGC book b/c we all know that sometimes their grading is off too.

 

as a side issue, I always thought that many ebay sellers say that CGC books are non-returnable as only a way to cut down on shipping costs in those cases where a buyer just wants to return a book for minor reasons. To try to make as many sales as possible STICK once they are consummated.

 

If I were a power seller I sure as heck would want to increase my percentage of sticky sales. And relying on the certitude of a CGC label seems a reasonable posture to take since by and large, we all agree that they are professionally impartial, as opposed to buying raw books where we KNOW theres a high probability that teh sellers has overgraded the comic. Early on I think this was inevitible and fine... but now with SCS, it might be a little tilted toward the sellers favor.

 

Absolutely not. I offer NO returns on CGC books for any other reason except the case is broken. If you have a concern with the grading of the book, or anything else with the book for that matter, that isn't my problem. I didn't grade the book, nor did I make any claims as to anything about the book. If you think a book is overgraded when it comes back with a 9.4, for example, your complaint is with CGC, not with me.

 

what about slab damage?? Do you take returns for that??