Pressing

[Red Hook]

Would you two get a goddam room!!!??!@!

[esquirecomics]

I appreciate the kind words, and I try to avoid taking any of the comments personally (which, of course, I know they are not b/c except for a small handful of you on the boards the rest don't know me except through these posts).

 

This debate has no easy solution for the time being, particularly and especially due to the detection problem. We may never eliminate the continuing problem of lack of disclosure. But we can try, through collective efforts, to isolate the problem to smaller, individual sellers, i.e., a non-dealer e-bayer.

 

However, the major dealers will react if their customers start demanding that they sign some sort of non-pressed "contract" or certificate. They will have to in order to keep their business from being negatively impacted in the long run. If they get caught having pressed books without disclosing it, especially after asserting they were not doing so, you will soon see a change in attitude among dealers once customers publicly rebel.

 

There are numerous major dealers reading these boards, so why don't you answer these two simple questions:

 

(1) Are you currently pressing books without disclosing it to your customers?

 

(2) Will you agree to consumate a sale with a signed affirmation that the book, to the best of your knowledge, was not pressed?

 

If you don't believe pressing is restoration, then a dealer should be willing to answer #1.

 

If you don't press books yourself or have others do it for you, then a dealer should be willing to answer #2.

 

Some may say it is perhaps not fair to request responses in a vacuum such as this board. If some view it this way, then the next time you are about to purchase a book from a dealer, ask those two questions. If they value your business, they should answer honestly.

[esquirecomics]

Another interesting item from the early discussions on pressing were the posts which showed know dealer EBAY Ids purchasing equipment such as Dry Mount presses etc. - Does anyone still have the links to that information??? Just curious.

 

I would very much like to see this information reposted.

 

BTW, in addition to having dealers admit whether they press or not, we can also publicize the converse - those who have denied it.

 

* Heritage has told me outright in writing that they do not have books pressed for resale.

 

* Matt Nelson has told me outright in writing that he does not press books for Heritage.

 

Does anyone know differently?

[blazingbob]

So before I even get into a public forum debating what you are doing I'm assuming that you are putting the Restored More Fun #52 back in the purple holder it came out of?

[esquirecomics]

So before I even get into a public forum debating what you are doing I'm assuming that you are putting the Restored More Fun #52 back in the purple holder it came out of?

 

Not at all. It is not a restored book. It had restoration work originally done on it by someone, which was apparently a gluing effort to seal some tears or something, but the glue was removed. And in the process the book's grade correctly suffered as a result, and was lowered from a 6.5 to a 5.5. Removal of restoration could take the form of removing tape, glue, or even whole pieces of added paper.

 

I am not aware of any legitimate controversy contesting that the removal of restoration cannot "restore" a book back to how it was before the restoration. Nor am I aware of any discussion within the community that this is a negative or unfavored practice. Of course, such act can never increase a book's grade.

 

If someone else has a different opinion, I'm certainly open to hear it.

[Aman619]

* Heritage has told me outright in writing that they do not have books pressed for resale.

 

Why am I not comforted by this declaration?? Esquire, in all due respect, if this is all you are after from every dealer, I dont think it will be very hard to assemble similar proclamations from everybody...

 

In addition, assuming you did assemble such promises in writing from every dealer, are you seriously contemplating using them in court to sue for damages? Have you never gone to a lawyer to see recompense only to experience the irony of spending more on legal help than you collect in damages? If you collect anything at all??

[blazingbob]

It was restored and now it's not? You are absolutely sure they removed everything. How about cracking it out and sending it to another restorer to see how good a job the Restoration remover did. What if another restorer deems it "still restored"?

 

Restoration Removal performed by a grading company absolutely was a firestorm when CGC first announced this service. While there are those who despise the AACC they were very much against this CGC service which came and WENT so I am not sure where you heard differently.

[VintageComics]

I have not added much to this thread, but have a question....why is it o.k. to unrestore a book? You have now taken a book (which had been altered from it's natural state in some way through the first restoration), and then taken steps to reverse the process.... it is STILL RESTORATION whether you like to call it so or now...it, like NDP is just not detectible at this time....maybe Pov. or someone else with some expertise can assist, but how is the glue removed? Scraping? Solvent? Both? The paper fibres on the open tear will never be the same again....the only way is to go back in time and stop the glue process in the first place. IT HAS BEEN DISTURBED TWICE.

For all intensive purposes this book is now double restored, as it is not in it's exact original state....it is only so close to it that we currently cannot detect the difference. The same with NDP...i'm sure someone somewhere could detect it (CSI maybe? FBI? CIA? )...it is probably just not economically feasable. It comes down to this....CGC has drawn a line as to what they will slab, how they will slab it and label it, and we like the majority of the herd have followed after them and acepted their terms.

There is no black and white answer because there is money involved. IF everyone owned a copy of NA #26, ASM #15 etc etc etc there would be no market for this. This is the problem. Comics are no longer fun. They are massively expensive. I remember an NM FF #1 costing $1000 when my grandmother's home cost $200,000. Now this same book costs $140,000 but my grandmother's home is worth $450,000....anyone see aproblem?

As long as there is money involved, and there are wealthy collectors who have the ability to afford anything the desire to collect this will always be a problem. Am i looking for communism? No, just throwing around some ideas.

[VintageComics]

WHEW!

[esquirecomics]

* Heritage has told me outright in writing that they do not have books pressed for resale.

 

Why am I not comforted by this declaration?? Esquire, in all due respect, if this is all you are after from every dealer, I dont think it will be very hard to assemble similar proclamations from everybody...

 

In addition, assuming you did assemble such promises in writing from every dealer, are you seriously contemplating using them in court to sue for damages? Have you never gone to a lawyer to see recompense only to experience the irony of spending more on legal help than you collect in damages? If you collect anything at all??

 

Is this all I'm after? No, I never said that. But it is a start. We are only as good as our word. And placing something in writing is far more valuable than a simple verbal affirmation.

 

If a seller tells me they did or did not do something (whether it involves comics or not), and I fundamentally rely on that assertion and purchase the item, and then it turns out that the representation was either materially false or a complete misrepresentation, then potential legal remedies exist (and possibly even criminal penalties).

 

There are numerous attorneys posting on these threads and they can - and I encourage them to do so - certainly add to this aspect of the discussion.

 

As far as the last statement, no, I've never experienced the scenario you described. Of course, I'm an attorney so I would only have myself to blame. In any event, lawsuits are not always about money.

[blazingbob]

I would have to ask would Mark has still bought the book knowing that is was once a Restored 6.5 and now a 5.5. Without ever seeing it out of the holder and getting a Neutral opinion that the work was really removed. Or does this fall under the "Mile High color touch standards" or the "tiny dot of glue" described on the back of the cgc holder that leaves tiny to the determination of cgc grading the book. Last time I looked, glue was glue, not how much was applied. Same with color touch. My Silver age books with tiny dots get purple, why can't they fall under the Mile high grading standard?

[Red Hook]

Hi, I am r1970d's RETURN KEY!

 

I serve many useful functions including adding breaks between dense sections of type, thus adding clarity to posts!

[FFB]

I have not added much to this thread, but have a question....why is it o.k. to unrestore a book? You have now taken a book (which had been altered from it's natural state in some way through the first restoration), and then taken steps to reverse the process....it is STILL RESTORATION whether you like to call it so or now...it, like NDP is just not detectible at this time....maybe Pov. or someone else with some expertise can assist, but how is the glue removed? Scraping? Solvent? Both? The paper fibres on the open tear will never be the same again....the only way is to go back in time and stop the glue process in the first place. IT HAS BEEN DISTURBED TWICE. For all intensive purposes this book is now double restored, as it is not in it's exact original state....it is only so close to it that we currently cannot detect the difference. The same with NDP...i'm sure someone somewhere could detect it (CSI maybe? FBI? CIA? )...it is probably just not economically feasable. It comes down to this....CGC has drawn a line as to what they will slab, how they will slab it and label it, and we like the majority of the herd have followed after them and acepted their terms. There is no black and white answer because there is money involved. IF everyone owned a copy of NA #26, ASM #15 etc etc etc there would be no market for this. This is the problem. Comics are no longer fun. They are massively expensive. I remember an NM FF #1 costing $1000 when my grandmother's home cost $200,000. Now this same book costs $140,000 but my grandmother's home is worth $450,000....anyone see aproblem? As long as there is money involved, and there are wealthy collectors who have the ability to afford anything the desire to collect this will always be a problem. Am i looking for communism? No, just throwing around some ideas.

 

With no disrespect intended toward you at all, my thought on all of this is "so what?"

 

I do not understand why "restoration" is viewed as evil if it is disclosed. Let's say for the sake of argument that there is a book that has a tear on the edge and is a 5.5, and is made into an "apparent" 6.5 by sealing the tear cleanly with archival glue. If the owner of the book wants to have the restoration removed (and most professional restoration is done to a book in such a manner that complete removal is possible) why is the book now a "bad book" just because someone removed the glue and opened the tear back up?

 

If any glue is left behind but is no longer sealing a tear, CGC will note it as a defect and downgrade for it just as they would if you dripped some peanut butter and jelly in a small spot on the cover. Why should the "unrestored" book with microscopic amounts of archival glue on the edges of an open tear be treated differently than a book with a tiny peanut butter and jelly stain? And if the glue is completely removed, it's no different than if you lick your fingers to wet them before turning the page. There is a slight bit of "residue" left on the book, but it does not change the appearance of the book one bit. The microscopic bits of archival glue remaining on the cover are not deceptively making the book "look nicer" than it did before the glue was there, and the book has not been "restored" to mimic its original, off-the-newsstand appearance.

 

It seems to me that the anti-restoration views are often taken to the extreme, as though the fact that ANY work was done to a book makes the book a pariah in the marketplace. That is just silly. It's still a very hard to find book, and if the glue is removed (through whatever method, as long as the book isn't taken apart), it is no "better" than it was before it was originally restored. Why should that affect the value or desirability of the book at all?

[VintageComics]

Hi, I am r1970d's RETURN KEY!

 

I serve many useful functions including adding breaks between dense sections of type, thus adding clarity to posts!

 

Edit done....mr. perfect!

How about the use of a graemlin or two to break up the monotony!

[Red Hook]

I deserved that.

 

Well, glad you found the return

 

 

key.

 

Good luck, and don't sprain your

 

right

 

index

 

finger.

 

Best,

 

Red

[esquirecomics]

It was restored and now it's not? You are absolutely sure they removed everything. How about cracking it out and sending it to another restorer to see how good a job the Restoration remover did. What if another restorer deems it "still restored"?

 

Restoration Removal performed by a grading company absolutely was a firestorm when CGC first announced this service. While there are those who despise the AACC they were very much against this CGC service which came and WENT so I am not sure where you heard differently.

 

I had nothing to do with the restoration or unrestoration. I purchased the book slabbed. I am not sure of anything except what the old label said and what the new label said.

 

But are you now questioning the expertise of CGC to detect restoration? I thought this was the one area where everyone agreed CGC was most useful. The issue surrounding the MF #52 has nothing to do with "detecting" whether all restoration was removed. It has to do with detecting whether any restoration exists. CGC has detected none.

 

Moreover, in line with the contents of this entire discussion, I have ALWAYS disclosed the fact on numerous occasions that this specific book was once restored. Heritage certainly did not do that (though it was the use of the scans on their website that led to the conclusion the book was one and the same, which was then confirmed by me by the players involved).

 

Let me be very clear. I have never argued against pressing. Personally, I have no current intention of pressing any books. You (and I use the term generically, I am not addressing it to Bob) want to press your own books, go right ahead. Disclose it when you sell them.

 

I have never argued against restoration. Frankly, I think restoration gets a bum rap in the comic community. But I have no current intention on restoring any of my books. You want to restore your books. Go right ahead. Disclose it when you sell them.

 

I will disclose all details that I know of that may impact the value of a book to a prospective buyer. That is all I can do. The buyer can then reach an informed decision as to whether the price I ask, in light of the factual circumstances as they are known or exist, is fair or acceptable to them.

 

In any event, my MF #52 is not for sale, and it hopefully won't be for a very, very long time.

[VintageComics]

FFB, you're right and that is what i tried to get a cross...(as a side note, i have no problem with a slightly restored book in my collection) ....the book is now DOUBLE restored, but it is no longer detected as restoration because NOW it could be jelly for all anyone cares...it is now a 5.5 blue label....we have accdepted this as an unrestored book based on what CGC says (re: herd mentality). Same with NDP...CGC says it is unrestored, we accept it. I personally am o.k. with both, but don't understand how self righteous purists can accept one but not the other?

[Aman619]

all the reputable dealers I buy from will already take returns for restored books, whether they knew or not beforehand. So the same will hold true (I imagine) if I determined that a book was pressed... or strongly suspected it. But Im a pretty good customer so perhaps I get "special treatment"... But most dealers take the books back to keep the issue quiet, and keep disgruntled buyers from running to chat boards like this and ruinging their good name.

 

And as far as returning comics that are less than advertised, what else is it about than getting ones money back? The "principle" involved in righting a wrong? Doesnt that mean getting one's money back??

[burntboy]

This is the hot topic of conversation this year absolutely no doubt about it. Esquire not sure you had a look at the previous threads, but since I think that I have been here since the beginning of the pressing argument I'll add a few points.

 

The pressing debate started with the Pedigrees, the now famous, or infamous depend on your pespective "What Changed thread" with discussion of the Church book and of course the Green River DD for sale on Ewert's site.

 

Arty has posted an interesting if frightening chart which goes into a detailed examination of the Church books and their changes in grade based on resubmissions. I think the instances of Pressing, or altering Pedigrees is what really got the ball rolling and enlightened collectors / buyer of what was occuring in the back issues market and moreso the degree with which it was occuring.

 

Another interesting item from the early discussions on pressing were the posts which showed know dealer EBAY Ids purchasing equipment such as Dry Mount presses etc. - Does anyone still have the links to that information??? Just curious.

 

Personally, I do not have a problem with restoration IE I would readily buy and seek to have a book restored. Why? well because I view restoration as a conservation technique desinged to improve the longevity of a comic book when performed properly. There is of course one caveat - Disclosure

 

The real issue with NDP is DISCLOSURE, there are many arguements for disclosure.. Some blame CGC who they believe have given restoration the kiss of death with the PLOD. CGC stance has often been we grade and examine the book, the marketplace then dictates what $$$ to asses to that. I have come to see NDP as a cyclical issue tied to its forbearer - Color touch.

 

Now its true that NDP and Color Touch as different forms of Alteration (I view them both as resto, but I use alteration as I know all do not share this view). Minor Color Touch was an accepted practice a couple of deacdes and go and it knew no bounds, which is evidenced by its application to Pedigrees such as the Church books. While the lack of foresight seems apparent now, I guess back then it was the little bump in the road that people looked the other way on and started from a small basis and then proliferated. A small technique used to achieve perfection - Sound Familiar. I truly now believe that NDP is the modern version of Slight Color Touch.

 

It can be done by nearly anyone.

It is currently nearly impossible to detect - CGC has stated they can't with confidence, what does that mean for the average colelctor on the show floor???

Its effective and cost effcient IE the cost to NDP a book can be easily recouped and then some in profit potential.

It started out as the little stigma, but I really believe that NDP has seen a huge increase in frequency in the past 2-3 years.

 

Why do I think this? Well for one its the only trick, or the easiest one in terms of risk reward to perform and still retain a blue label. Add to that the professional restorers that have highlighted it as a new service in their repitoire.

 

So where does that leave the collector and the hobby at large??

 

Well think about Color Touch, a lot of people were sold slight CT books and not informed about the CT. I'm sure a lot of sellers took the moral high road back then too. "What not me? Where? No way do I sell CT books? They were able to do this because Slight CT was hard to detect, you dont a lot of ppl at shows with black lights and microscopes do you. After the fact and now that CGC has made an affordable resto check available the attitude is. "Yes its regrettable but that was then this is now" CGC does not even consider slight CT on GA books as resto. This fact alone should illustrate exactly how rampant slight CT was back in the day.

 

So now I hear the same song from a lot of sellers with NDP. "Not me, no way, prove it....." Secure in the knowledge that detection is very difficult, or impossible in the present context. This is of course a short sighted view, as we should think that some day a fairly inexpensive method from determing NDP at the molecular level might exist. I fear we will then have a similar situation to CT whereby the rationalization will ensue. "Ya it occured, but that was the loophole in the day, everyone was doing it, that's just the way it was.

 

Jbud - very interesting and insightful summary/comments.......

 

think i'll wait until i get to the end of this thread to post my comments so i don't just repeat what's already been said................

[esquirecomics]

I would have to ask would Mark has still bought the book knowing that is was once a Restored 6.5 and now a 5.5. Without ever seeing it out of the holder and getting a Neutral opinion that the work was really removed. Or does this fall under the "Mile High color touch standards" or the "tiny dot of glue" described on the back of the cgc holder that leaves tiny to the determination of cgc grading the book. Last time I looked, glue was glue, not how much was applied. Same with color touch. My Silver age books with tiny dots get purple, why can't they fall under the Mile high grading standard?

 

I purchased the book with full knowledge of its history. I made an informed decision and one that I remain quite content in having made. Had I purchased it without such knowledge, and knowing myself, I may very well have demanded my money back, particularly if I discovered that the seller knew of the history and did not reveal it. I almost always question a dealer/seller about a book's history, especially when we are talking about spending five figures or more.

 

I cannot answer your other questions. Those are for CGC to answer. In fact, if you read through some of my prior posts (either on the pressing threads or the pedigree discussions in the GA section), I asked many of these same questions of CGC. Why does "slight color touch" get a blue label? What distinguishes "slight" from an amount not so slight? Same thing with glue. And why is there an obvious difference in grading a GA book versus a SA book, yet the same ten point scale is utilized without a stated policy distinction? A CGC 8.0 Superman #22 probably does not look or have comparable defects as a CGC 8.0 Star Wars #1.

 

I do not set CGC or community grading policies. As a member of the community I voice my opinion as to what I believe those policies should be, and perhaps changes are made if others agree with me in sufficient numbers.

 

As a "dealer/collector", I set my own policies, and those policies - unlike some other dealers - are transparent.

 

Again, the issue in this debate - whether it involves pressing, restoration, or the removal of restoration - is not whether we like it or not, or whether the value of a book is impacted or not, it is about DISCLOSURE.