$84K for an FF 52?!?

[Bomber-Bob]

It would certainly help to remind any potential bidders that this particular book is actually quite common, even in relatively high grade condition.

 

Yes it is, with many many raw copies sitting in private collections.

 

With high demand books, common doesn't seem to hurt the valuation.

- Ignoring Qualified and Restored, there are over 2,000 Hulk 181's graded 9.0 or higher. Yet the book can sell for 15K in 9.8 .

- Ditto ASM 129 with nearly 2,400 copies in 9.0 or higher and a 9.8 exceeds 10K .

- And don't get me started on New Mutants 98 which is common as dirt, exceeding 2,500 copies in 9.8 or better alone.

- By comparison there are only 187 FF52's in 9.0 or above. About the same as a DD #1.

- Daredevil #1 has 180 copies in 9.0 or above and I don't know what a 9.8 would sell for but a 9.6 is currently a 35K book .

[Vger7]

Common or not... it really boils down to how many people want a copy, which is hard to quantify. The only reason Hulk #181 has any value is because enough people want it. It's iconic status helps sell the book... and keeps it propped up.

[lou_fine]

It would certainly help to remind any potential bidders that this particular book is actually quite common, even in relatively high grade condition.

 

Yes it is, with many many raw copies sitting in private collections.

 

With high demand books, common doesn't seem to hurt the valuation.

- Ignoring Qualified and Restored, there are over 2,000 Hulk 181's graded 9.0 or higher. Yet the book can sell for 15K in 9.8 .

- Ditto ASM 129 with nearly 2,400 copies in 9.0 or higher and a 9.8 exceeds 10K .

- And don't get me started on New Mutants 98 which is common as dirt, exceeding 2,500 copies in 9.8 or better alone.

 

It probably depends on the condition level that you are talking about.

 

With these 3 high demand books, common definitely doesn't seem to have hurt their valuation in terms of the ones in less than uber HG conditions. They have continued to steadily increase in value in all grades across the condition spectrum, with only one exception.

 

And that one exception would be in terms of the highest grade to date, as I believe that all 3 of those books in highest graded condition have dropped down significantly from their all-time GPA highs.

[lou_fine]

A 9.6 PC copy of Supes 199 just sold in auction for 19,750 and it didn't even have White Pages. To me, that sale is more amazing than these FF52 sales. Just think, a DC comic in 9.6, without WP, and not really a key (although it is a cool book).

 

Exactly right!

 

This is just the latest in another example of a CGC highest graded copy of an otherwise common book in anything less than the highest grade selling for a irrational moonshot price. Like all other similar common books selling at these types of insane multiples above the previous highest recorded sale, this will in time result in a significant loss for the purchaser of this particular copy.

 

Especially in light of the fact that Supes 199 is not even an early SA book and there are already 4 copies in equivalent grade out there, possibly with even better PQ than this particular copy here.

 

 

[namisgr]

The tone here is a bit disturbing. With all this advice for high end comic buyers and their willingness to pay handsomely to own the nicest copies of cool books that they can find and afford, I'd hate to see the takedown of the high end car enthusiasts, who spend six figures on objects that lose value the day they're driven home.

 

There seem to be assumptions built into all of the criticisms of the record price-paying buyers:

One, that they are losing vast sums of money on their hobby. In reality, maybe some are, but maybe some are not - which of us hasn't wound up selling a comic book for less than they paid for it? Perhaps some of these record buys are from hobbyists who've also made significant profit on other comics.

Two, that there is financial irresponsibility in losing vast sums on a comic book. I'd be more reluctant to tell other people how they should spend their money than that. Many people use disposable income to do things and buy things that give them pleasure, some of whom have so much disposable income that paying $90K for a comic book is a drop in the bucket. For them, money is a means to an end, and not the end in and of itself. Personally, I'd love to own a 9.8 copy of FF #52 from a renown pedigree collection, or the Pacific Coast copy of Supes #199, and if I had enough disposable income to justify it (which, sadly, I don't), why shouldn't I pay what it takes to buy one? What if I'm a star player in the NBA with an $80 million contract or a Silicon Valley techie with tons of cheap in-the-money stock options, am interested in Black History, read comic books as a kid, think the Black Panther is an historical and cultural icon, and am too busy living a baller lifestyle to spend years scouring all of the auction and fixed price comic book venues for a better deal?

 

So, yes, it's enjoyable to discuss these noteworthy outlier sales that hit seemingly unbelievable prices, and that's fine. But I think that calling the buyers losers, or implying that they are with face palms and falling bricks, and harping on how they won't ever come close to getting back the money they are putting in when making these outlier purchases is inappropriate, and forgets that this is just a fun hobby.

[october]

A 9.6 PC copy of Supes 199 just sold in auction for 19,750 and it didn't even have White Pages. To me, that sale is more amazing than these FF52 sales. Just think, a DC comic in 9.6, without WP, and not really a key (although it is a cool book).

 

Exactly right!

 

This is just the latest in another example of a CGC highest graded copy of an otherwise common book in anything less than the highest grade selling for a irrational moonshot price. Like all other similar common books selling at these types of insane multiples above the previous highest recorded sale, this will in time result in a significant loss for the purchaser of this particular copy.

 

Especially in light of the fact that Supes 199 is not even an early SA book and there are already 4 copies in equivalent grade out there, possibly with even better PQ than this particular copy here.

 

There is at least one with better PQ.

 

I slabbed a 9.6 copy five or six years ago that came back with white pages. At the time it was one of two copies in grade, and it sold on CLink for $2200 or so. Seemed a little low at the time, but not horrible. The $20k sale is incredible (irrational), but there are record sales just about every day now. They are losing their capacity to shock.

[Bomber-Bob]

There is at least one with better PQ.

 

I slabbed a 9.6 copy five or six years ago that came back with white pages. At the time it was one of two copies in grade, and it sold on CLink for $2200 or so. Seemed a little low at the time, but not horrible. The $20k sale is incredible (irrational), but there are record sales just about every day now. They are losing their capacity to shock.

 

I was wondering if any of the 4 Supes 199 in 9.6 had White Pages. Figures you would be the one to bring it to market (compliment I hope) ! There is another for sale on the Boards with Off White.

 

Nothing shocks me any more regarding final hammer. It's a strong market. I agree with Bob Namisgr, we should be embracing these sales, not slamming them.

[october]

There is at least one with better PQ.

 

I slabbed a 9.6 copy five or six years ago that came back with white pages. At the time it was one of two copies in grade, and it sold on CLink for $2200 or so. Seemed a little low at the time, but not horrible. The $20k sale is incredible (irrational), but there are record sales just about every day now. They are losing their capacity to shock.

 

I was wondering if any of the 4 Supes 199 in 9.6 had White Pages. Figures you would be the one to bring it to market (compliment I hope) ! There is another for sale on the Boards with Off White.

 

Nothing shocks me any more regarding final hammer. It's a strong market. I agree with Bob Namisgr, we should be embracing these sales, not slamming them.

 

I am not sure. I will agree that this market is exciting, but I will take slow and steady growth over this type of thing any day. The more that prices explode the higher the chances are that someone will get burned. It doesn't take too many times being taken out behind the woodshed for a collector to lose their desire to collect, no matter what their level of disposable income.

[Ghost Town]

The tone here is a bit disturbing. With all this advice for high end comic buyers and their willingness to pay handsomely to own the nicest copies of cool books that they can find and afford, I'd hate to see the takedown of the high end car enthusiasts, who spend six figures on objects that lose value the day they're driven home.

 

There seem to be assumptions built into all of the criticisms of the record price-paying buyers:

One, that they are losing vast sums of money on their hobby. In reality, maybe some are, but maybe some are not - which of us hasn't wound up selling a comic book for less than they paid for it? Perhaps some of these record buys are from hobbyists who've also made significant profit on other comics.

Two, that there is financial irresponsibility in losing vast sums on a comic book. I'd be more reluctant to tell other people how they should spend their money than that. Many people use disposable income to do things and buy things that give them pleasure, some of whom have so much disposable income that paying $90K for a comic book is a drop in the bucket. For them, money is a means to an end, and not the end in and of itself. Personally, I'd love to own a 9.8 copy of FF #52 from a renown pedigree collection, or the Pacific Coast copy of Supes #199, and if I had enough disposable income to justify it (which, sadly, I don't), why shouldn't I pay what it takes to buy one? What if I'm a star player in the NBA with an $80 million contract or a Silicon Valley techie with tons of cheap in-the-money stock options, am interested in Black History, read comic books as a kid, think the Black Panther is an historical and cultural icon, and am too busy living a baller lifestyle to spend years scouring all of the auction and fixed price comic book venues for a better deal?

 

So, yes, it's enjoyable to discuss these noteworthy outlier sales that hit seemingly unbelievable prices, and that's fine. But I think that calling the buyers losers, or implying that they are with face palms and falling bricks, and harping on how they won't ever come close to getting back the money they are putting in when making these outlier purchases is inappropriate, and forgets that this is just a fun hobby.

Great post, Bob.

 

I think a lot of the commentary in this thread and others like it is part of the downside of the Internet. I remember attending a Sotheby's comic auction in NYC probably over 20 years ago. When books realized big or surprising prices, the room would enthusiastically cheer or applaud.

 

Of course, there'd be a guy grousing in the corner about the price paid. But on the whole, people were excited and it was a lot of fun.

 

I have no idea if the guy who pays 90k for a FF 52 will ever recoup his money if he decides to sell it. But there has been a long history of comments made about prices paid for books over the years. And it would be interesting to revisit those comments after some time has passed.

[october]

The tone here is a bit disturbing. With all this advice for high end comic buyers and their willingness to pay handsomely to own the nicest copies of cool books that they can find and afford, I'd hate to see the takedown of the high end car enthusiasts, who spend six figures on objects that lose value the day they're driven home.

 

There seem to be assumptions built into all of the criticisms of the record price-paying buyers:

One, that they are losing vast sums of money on their hobby. In reality, maybe some are, but maybe some are not - which of us hasn't wound up selling a comic book for less than they paid for it? Perhaps some of these record buys are from hobbyists who've also made significant profit on other comics.

Two, that there is financial irresponsibility in losing vast sums on a comic book. I'd be more reluctant to tell other people how they should spend their money than that. Many people use disposable income to do things and buy things that give them pleasure, some of whom have so much disposable income that paying $90K for a comic book is a drop in the bucket. For them, money is a means to an end, and not the end in and of itself. Personally, I'd love to own a 9.8 copy of FF #52 from a renown pedigree collection, or the Pacific Coast copy of Supes #199, and if I had enough disposable income to justify it (which, sadly, I don't), why shouldn't I pay what it takes to buy one? What if I'm a star player in the NBA with an $80 million contract or a Silicon Valley techie with tons of cheap in-the-money stock options, am interested in Black History, read comic books as a kid, think the Black Panther is an historical and cultural icon, and am too busy living a baller lifestyle to spend years scouring all of the auction and fixed price comic book venues for a better deal?

 

So, yes, it's enjoyable to discuss these noteworthy outlier sales that hit seemingly unbelievable prices, and that's fine. But I think that calling the buyers losers, or implying that they are with face palms and falling bricks, and harping on how they won't ever come close to getting back the money they are putting in when making these outlier purchases is inappropriate, and forgets that this is just a fun hobby.

Great post, Bob.

 

I think a lot of the commentary in this thread and others like it is part of the downside of the Internet. I remember attending a Sotheby's comic auction in NYC probably over 20 years ago. When books realized big or surprising prices, the room would enthusiastically cheer or applaud.

 

Of course, there'd be a guy grousing in the corner about the price paid. But on the whole, people were excited and it was a lot of fun.

 

I have no idea if the guy who pays 90k for a FF 52 will ever recoup his money if he decides to sell it. But there has been a long history of comments made about prices paid for books over the years. And it would be interesting to revisit those comments after some time has passed.

 

I'd be a little more sanguine about the wisdom of paying $20k for a Superman 199 if a 9.6 with better pages hadn't just sold a few month before that at 30% of that amount. Silver age peds are nice, but I not sure one adds $14k in value in this case.

 

Some "high" prices end up as bargains in hindsight...some simply remain high. For every aggressive price that ended up being a win, there is a Gary Keller out there.

 

[VintageComics]

It would certainly help to remind any potential bidders that this particular book is actually quite common, even in relatively high grade condition.

 

Yes it is, with many many raw copies sitting in private collections.

 

With high demand books, common doesn't seem to hurt the valuation.

- Ignoring Qualified and Restored, there are over 2,000 Hulk 181's graded 9.0 or higher. Yet the book can sell for 15K in 9.8 .

- Ditto ASM 129 with nearly 2,400 copies in 9.0 or higher and a 9.8 exceeds 10K .

- And don't get me started on New Mutants 98 which is common as dirt, exceeding 2,500 copies in 9.8 or better alone.

 

It probably depends on the condition level that you are talking about.

 

With these 3 high demand books, common definitely doesn't seem to have hurt their valuation in terms of the ones in less than uber HG conditions. They have continued to steadily increase in value in all grades across the condition spectrum, with only one exception.

 

And that one exception would be in terms of the highest grade to date, as I believe that all 3 of those books in highest graded condition have dropped down significantly from their all-time GPA highs.

 

The flip side to that discussion is that if lower grades continue to rise in price (as they seem to do for keys) then the highest graded examples that dropped will eventually move up again.

[VintageComics]

The tone here is a bit disturbing. With all this advice for high end comic buyers and their willingness to pay handsomely to own the nicest copies of cool books that they can find and afford, I'd hate to see the takedown of the high end car enthusiasts, who spend six figures on objects that lose value the day they're driven home.

 

There seem to be assumptions built into all of the criticisms of the record price-paying buyers:

One, that they are losing vast sums of money on their hobby. In reality, maybe some are, but maybe some are not - which of us hasn't wound up selling a comic book for less than they paid for it? Perhaps some of these record buys are from hobbyists who've also made significant profit on other comics.

Two, that there is financial irresponsibility in losing vast sums on a comic book. I'd be more reluctant to tell other people how they should spend their money than that. Many people use disposable income to do things and buy things that give them pleasure, some of whom have so much disposable income that paying $90K for a comic book is a drop in the bucket. For them, money is a means to an end, and not the end in and of itself. Personally, I'd love to own a 9.8 copy of FF #52 from a renown pedigree collection, or the Pacific Coast copy of Supes #199, and if I had enough disposable income to justify it (which, sadly, I don't), why shouldn't I pay what it takes to buy one? What if I'm a star player in the NBA with an $80 million contract or a Silicon Valley techie with tons of cheap in-the-money stock options, am interested in Black History, read comic books as a kid, think the Black Panther is an historical and cultural icon, and am too busy living a baller lifestyle to spend years scouring all of the auction and fixed price comic book venues for a better deal?

 

So, yes, it's enjoyable to discuss these noteworthy outlier sales that hit seemingly unbelievable prices, and that's fine. But I think that calling the buyers losers, or implying that they are with face palms and falling bricks, and harping on how they won't ever come close to getting back the money they are putting in when making these outlier purchases is inappropriate, and forgets that this is just a fun hobby.

 

Agreed.

 

The guy that owns the two Action #1 9.0 copies is a billionaire. He'll never need to sell either book. And that means if you want to own one, you'll have to make a compelling offer to own one.

 

I'm not saying an FF #52 9.8 is comparable to an Acton #1 but for those of us with not much (relatively speaking) disposable income, it becomes hard to fathom what it's like to not worry about having a few $1MIL to drop on anything we want, any time we want.

 

But there are lots of people like that out there. Belittling their interests does little good.

 

[jimjum12]

The tone here is a bit disturbing. With all this advice for high end comic buyers and their willingness to pay handsomely to own the nicest copies of cool books that they can find and afford, I'd hate to see the takedown of the high end car enthusiasts, who spend six figures on objects that lose value the day they're driven home.

 

There seem to be assumptions built into all of the criticisms of the record price-paying buyers:

One, that they are losing vast sums of money on their hobby. In reality, maybe some are, but maybe some are not - which of us hasn't wound up selling a comic book for less than they paid for it? Perhaps some of these record buys are from hobbyists who've also made significant profit on other comics.

Two, that there is financial irresponsibility in losing vast sums on a comic book. I'd be more reluctant to tell other people how they should spend their money than that. Many people use disposable income to do things and buy things that give them pleasure, some of whom have so much disposable income that paying $90K for a comic book is a drop in the bucket. For them, money is a means to an end, and not the end in and of itself. Personally, I'd love to own a 9.8 copy of FF #52 from a renown pedigree collection, or the Pacific Coast copy of Supes #199, and if I had enough disposable income to justify it (which, sadly, I don't), why shouldn't I pay what it takes to buy one? What if I'm a star player in the NBA with an $80 million contract or a Silicon Valley techie with tons of cheap in-the-money stock options, am interested in Black History, read comic books as a kid, think the Black Panther is an historical and cultural icon, and am too busy living a baller lifestyle to spend years scouring all of the auction and fixed price comic book venues for a better deal?

 

So, yes, it's enjoyable to discuss these noteworthy outlier sales that hit seemingly unbelievable prices, and that's fine. But I think that calling the buyers losers, or implying that they are with face palms and falling bricks, and harping on how they won't ever come close to getting back the money they are putting in when making these outlier purchases is inappropriate, and forgets that this is just a fun hobby.

 

Agreed.

 

The guy that owns the two Action #1 9l0 copies is a billionaire. He'll never need to sell either book. And that means if you want to own one, you'll have to make a compelling offer to own one.

 

I'm not saying an FF #52 9.8 is comparable to an Acton #1 but for those of us with not much (relatively speaking) disposable income, it becomes hard to fathom what it's like to not worry about having a few $1MIL to drop on anything we want, any time we want.

 

But there are lots of people like that out there. Belittling their interests does little good.

 

 

...and there are, what, 4 copies in 9.8 ?........maybe not rare, but we're certainly not talking about picking up a head of lettuce on the way home. Perhaps one individual owns more than one. I remember when I owned 2 of the then 3 copies of Avengers 3 in 9.2..... I thought it was kind of cool. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Shaolingoat]

 

 

...and there are, what, 4 copies in 9.8 ?........maybe not rare, but we're certainly not talking about picking up a head of lettuce on the way home. Perhaps one individual owns more than one. I remember when I owned 2 of the then 3 copies of Avengers 3 in 9.2..... I thought it was kind of cool. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

If I could only find a single 9.2 of Issue #3, let alone two. My search continues...

[Bomber-Bob]

 

I'd be a little more sanguine about the wisdom of paying $20k for a Superman 199 if a 9.6 with better pages hadn't just sold a few month before that at 30% of that amount. Silver age peds are nice, but I not sure one adds $14k in value in this case.

 

 

Interesting that another Supes 199 in 9.6 with Off White pages, non pedigree, came up for sale on the Boards for a mere 22K. Crazy.

[Ghost Town]

Some "high" prices end up as bargains in hindsight...some simply remain high. For every aggressive price that ended up being a win, there is a Gary Keller out there.

Who is Gary Keller?

 

I remember Dr. Jack – the guy who quickly bought a ton of high grade Spideys and not too long later sold them at a loss to buy an MRI machine. (Or at least that was the story.) He probably would have done ok if he waited a bit. But he's probably done ok with the MRIs too.

[october]

Some "high" prices end up as bargains in hindsight...some simply remain high. For every aggressive price that ended up being a win, there is a Gary Keller out there.

Who is Gary Keller?

 

I remember Dr. Jack – the guy who quickly bought a ton of high grade Spideys and not too long later sold them at a loss to buy an MRI machine. (Or at least that was the story.) He probably would have done ok if he waited a bit. But he's probably done ok with the MRIs too.

 

A collector who amassed dozen and dozens of Church copies, only to take massive losses on resale through Heritage. Into six figures I think.

 

I will try to find the thread.

[Aman619]

The tone here is a bit disturbing. With all this advice for high end comic buyers and their willingness to pay handsomely to own the nicest copies of cool books that they can find and afford, I'd hate to see the takedown of the high end car enthusiasts, who spend six figures on objects that lose value the day they're driven home.

 

There seem to be assumptions built into all of the criticisms of the record price-paying buyers:

One, that they are losing vast sums of money on their hobby. In reality, maybe some are, but maybe some are not - which of us hasn't wound up selling a comic book for less than they paid for it? Perhaps some of these record buys are from hobbyists who've also made significant profit on other comics.

Two, that there is financial irresponsibility in losing vast sums on a comic book. I'd be more reluctant to tell other people how they should spend their money than that. Many people use disposable income to do things and buy things that give them pleasure, some of whom have so much disposable income that paying $90K for a comic book is a drop in the bucket. For them, money is a means to an end, and not the end in and of itself. Personally, I'd love to own a 9.8 copy of FF #52 from a renown pedigree collection, or the Pacific Coast copy of Supes #199, and if I had enough disposable income to justify it (which, sadly, I don't), why shouldn't I pay what it takes to buy one? What if I'm a star player in the NBA with an $80 million contract or a Silicon Valley techie with tons of cheap in-the-money stock options, am interested in Black History, read comic books as a kid, think the Black Panther is an historical and cultural icon, and am too busy living a baller lifestyle to spend years scouring all of the auction and fixed price comic book venues for a better deal?

 

So, yes, it's enjoyable to discuss these noteworthy outlier sales that hit seemingly unbelievable prices, and that's fine. But I think that calling the buyers losers, or implying that they are with face palms and falling bricks, and harping on how they won't ever come close to getting back the money they are putting in when making these outlier purchases is inappropriate, and forgets that this is just a fun hobby.

Great post, Bob.

 

I think a lot of the commentary in this thread and others like it is part of the downside of the Internet. I remember attending a Sotheby's comic auction in NYC probably over 20 years ago. When books realized big or surprising prices, the room would enthusiastically cheer or applaud.

 

Of course, there'd be a guy grousing in the corner about the price paid. But on the whole, people were excited and it was a lot of fun.

 

I have no idea if the guy who pays 90k for a FF 52 will ever recoup his money if he decides to sell it. But there has been a long history of comments made about prices paid for books over the years. And it would be interesting to revisit those comments after some time has passed.

 

 

Well, there were a lot of laughs and derision from dealers and collectors whenever a book sold for a wacky price back at Sotheby's too. The numbers have changed by a few decimal places, but seeing books we are well aware of the relative values of sell for ridiculous prices will always bring the same reaction we see nowadays.

[october]

Some "high" prices end up as bargains in hindsight...some simply remain high. For every aggressive price that ended up being a win, there is a Gary Keller out there.

Who is Gary Keller?

 

I remember Dr. Jack – the guy who quickly bought a ton of high grade Spideys and not too long later sold them at a loss to buy an MRI machine. (Or at least that was the story.) He probably would have done ok if he waited a bit. But he's probably done ok with the MRIs too.

 

A collector who amassed dozen and dozens of Church copies, only to take massive losses on resale through Heritage. Into six figures I think.

 

I will try to find the thread.

 

The auctions referenced in this thread were hard to watch.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=15&Number=4183736&Searchpage=1&Main=198622&Words=Keller&topic=0&Search=true#Post4183736

[tth2]

Some "high" prices end up as bargains in hindsight...some simply remain high. For every aggressive price that ended up being a win, there is a Gary Keller out there.

Who is Gary Keller?

 

I remember Dr. Jack – the guy who quickly bought a ton of high grade Spideys and not too long later sold them at a loss to buy an MRI machine. (Or at least that was the story.) He probably would have done ok if he waited a bit. But he's probably done ok with the MRIs too.

I remember that guy too.

 

He definitely would've done very well if he'd just held on for a while.

 

Which is the point I was making in the thread in General about owning the highest graded copy. Most losses came from people selling too early, not from overpaying.