modern ASM #667 variant sells for $9K

[grebal]

I work at a casino. There are things you can ask me about our procedures and the way we do things and I'll tell you the truth. And there are other things I'll straight up lie to you about because there's no incentive for me to tell you, and it could get me in trouble to tell you the truth about them. Every company I've worked for has always been the same.

 

So, are professional black jack teams and card counters simply escorted to the exit doors once they are discovered ?

[ChiSoxFan]

I work at a casino. There are things you can ask me about our procedures and the way we do things and I'll tell you the truth. And there are other things I'll straight up lie to you about because there's no incentive for me to tell you, and it could get me in trouble to tell you the truth about them. Every company I've worked for has always been the same.

 

So, are professional black jack teams and card counters simply escorted to the exit doors once they are discovered ?

 

I can tell you that "card counting" is not illegal, but casinos reserve the right to ask people politely to no longer frequent their establishment. How my place of operation handles it, I can't tell you, since it's never happened at one of my tables where anyone was asked to leave.

 

I have had people I suspected were card counting at my tables before, however -- but what most people don't realize is that counting cards only gives you a slightly greater advantage against the house over the long term. Over the course of a night, bad luck can still just as easily do you in. One card counter I had at my table one night, I notified the supervisor in my pit about what he was doing, and his reply was "Let him keep doing it -- you're cleaning him out."

[Jaydogrules]

Unless something has changed dramatically since my time when I owned a shop back in the late 1990's (and unfortunately had to deal with Diamond), the people that worked at Diamond were usually uninformed over the most basic things (my "favorite" memory from that time was having my entire shipment held one week without warning due to "non-payment" of a previous order -- despite the fact that I sent our checks certified mail requiring signature, had the name of the person who signed for it at Diamond, and the check had already cleared my bank. ).

 

Unless I heard something directly from someone at Marvel -- the publisher themselves -- and it was someone directly involved in the printing process, any claim of facts one way or the other is simply noise and speculation.

 

His Diamond contact reached out to other sources. Don't know if it was someone at Marvel or the printer though, he couldn't elaborate either way because the info is supposed to be proprietary.

 

-J.

 

There's some irony in the smiley you're using there having the code of "gossip", since that's still what it is.

 

The book might have 225 copies printed. Or 22,500 copies. Or somewhere in between. And there's as good a chance that this "Marvel or printer" contact was being truthful to this "Diamond contact" as he was being purposefully misdirecting. What incentive is there for anyone at Marvel to share numbers with anyone else, other than for them to possibly lose their job?

 

I work at a casino. There are things you can ask me about our procedures and the way we do things and I'll tell you the truth. And there are other things I'll straight up lie to you about because there's no incentive for me to tell you, and it could get me in trouble to tell you the truth about them. Every company I've worked for has always been the same.

 

. The 225 number basically just confirmed most of the speculation that was going on anyway , as well as all the circumstantial evidence that's been readily apparent since shorty after the book was originally released going on, what , six years now I believe.

 

-J.

 

In a sentence with the word "confirmed" in it, you also used the words "speculation" and "circumstantial" and "apparent". I'm not an English major (actually I was once, but I can't prove that unless I show you my college transcripts ), but none of those really fall into the same definition as the word "proof", or at least not what would be considered 100% proof.

 

Yes. One bit of information confirmed what was heretofore speculation based on nearly six years worth of circumstantial evidence (though that was quite compelling in its own right).

 

-J

 

What's that information? I'm genuinely curious.

 

These other gentleman that you see trying to go back and forth with me on this issue has been done on more than one occasion with literally the same three or four individuals. Having noticed that, another Diamond account holding boardie reached out to me in a PM and asked me if I would like him to pool his contacts and see what he could dig up. Of course I said yes. Several days later he got back to me and stated that the book had no more than a two case pack run of 225 each, but he was waiting to hear back from one more source to confirm. A day or two later he got back to me and stated that it was confirmed with him that the book was only a one case pack run of 225, and that there was some additional chatter about some damages happening to even those copies at some point during distribution. He frankly has no reason to lie, nor do I, as, although I certainly .paid a healthy premium for my copy many years ago, I have an ample amount of equity in it and I will never sell regardless (in spite of the multiple $8k+ offers I have also received for it). Though I must confess to be mildly amused and bemused by the dogged determination of these few gentleman boardies who have an established history of clique-ing up together, particularly on the topic of this one unique book ) to deny even the most powerful circumstantial evidence, let alone what a Diamond or Marvel rep might disclose.

 

-J.

[Prince Namor]

Unless something has changed dramatically since my time when I owned a shop back in the late 1990's (and unfortunately had to deal with Diamond), the people that worked at Diamond were usually uninformed over the most basic things (my "favorite" memory from that time was having my entire shipment held one week without warning due to "non-payment" of a previous order -- despite the fact that I sent our checks certified mail requiring signature, had the name of the person who signed for it at Diamond, and the check had already cleared my bank. ).

 

Unless I heard something directly from someone at Marvel -- the publisher themselves -- and it was someone directly involved in the printing process, any claim of facts one way or the other is simply noise and speculation.

 

His Diamond contact reached out to other sources. Don't know if it was someone at Marvel or the printer though, he couldn't elaborate either way because the info is supposed to be proprietary.

 

-J.

 

There's some irony in the smiley you're using there having the code of "gossip", since that's still what it is.

 

The book might have 225 copies printed. Or 22,500 copies. Or somewhere in between. And there's as good a chance that this "Marvel or printer" contact was being truthful to this "Diamond contact" as he was being purposefully misdirecting. What incentive is there for anyone at Marvel to share numbers with anyone else, other than for them to possibly lose their job?

 

I work at a casino. There are things you can ask me about our procedures and the way we do things and I'll tell you the truth. And there are other things I'll straight up lie to you about because there's no incentive for me to tell you, and it could get me in trouble to tell you the truth about them. Every company I've worked for has always been the same.

 

. The 225 number basically just confirmed most of the speculation that was going on anyway , as well as all the circumstantial evidence that's been readily apparent since shorty after the book was originally released going on, what , six years now I believe.

 

-J.

 

In a sentence with the word "confirmed" in it, you also used the words "speculation" and "circumstantial" and "apparent". I'm not an English major (actually I was once, but I can't prove that unless I show you my college transcripts ), but none of those really fall into the same definition as the word "proof", or at least not what would be considered 100% proof.

 

Yes. One bit of information confirmed what was heretofore speculation based on nearly six years worth of circumstantial evidence (though that was quite compelling in its own right).

 

-J

 

What's that information? I'm genuinely curious.

 

These other gentleman that you see trying to go back and forth with me on this issue has been done on more than one occasion with literally the same three or four individuals. Having noticed that, another Diamond account holding boardie reached out to me in a PM and asked me if I would like him to pool his contacts and see what he could dig up. Of course I said yes. Several days later he got back to me and stated that the book had no more than a two case pack run of 225 each, but he was waiting to hear back from one more source to confirm. A day or two later he got back to me and stated that it was confirmed with him that the book was only a one case pack run of 225, and that there was some additional chatter about some damages happening to even those copies at some point during distribution. He frankly has no reason to lie, nor do I, as, although I certainly .paid a healthy premium for my copy, I have an ample amount of equity in it and I will never sell (in spite of the multiple $8k+ offers I have also received for it). Though I must confess to be mildly a used and bemused by the dogged determination of these few gentleman boardies kwho have an established history of clique-ing up together, particularly on the topic of this one unique book ) to deny even the most powerful circumstantial evidence, let alone what a Diamond or Marvel rep might disclose.

 

-J.

 

In other words, you have no proof.

[Jaydogrules]

Unless something has changed dramatically since my time when I owned a shop back in the late 1990's (and unfortunately had to deal with Diamond), the people that worked at Diamond were usually uninformed over the most basic things (my "favorite" memory from that time was having my entire shipment held one week without warning due to "non-payment" of a previous order -- despite the fact that I sent our checks certified mail requiring signature, had the name of the person who signed for it at Diamond, and the check had already cleared my bank. ).

 

Unless I heard something directly from someone at Marvel -- the publisher themselves -- and it was someone directly involved in the printing process, any claim of facts one way or the other is simply noise and speculation.

 

His Diamond contact reached out to other sources. Don't know if it was someone at Marvel or the printer though, he couldn't elaborate either way because the info is supposed to be proprietary.

 

-J.

 

There's some irony in the smiley you're using there having the code of "gossip", since that's still what it is.

 

The book might have 225 copies printed. Or 22,500 copies. Or somewhere in between. And there's as good a chance that this "Marvel or printer" contact was being truthful to this "Diamond contact" as he was being purposefully misdirecting. What incentive is there for anyone at Marvel to share numbers with anyone else, other than for them to possibly lose their job?

 

I work at a casino. There are things you can ask me about our procedures and the way we do things and I'll tell you the truth. And there are other things I'll straight up lie to you about because there's no incentive for me to tell you, and it could get me in trouble to tell you the truth about them. Every company I've worked for has always been the same.

 

. The 225 number basically just confirmed most of the speculation that was going on anyway , as well as all the circumstantial evidence that's been readily apparent since shorty after the book was originally released going on, what , six years now I believe.

 

-J.

 

In a sentence with the word "confirmed" in it, you also used the words "speculation" and "circumstantial" and "apparent". I'm not an English major (actually I was once, but I can't prove that unless I show you my college transcripts ), but none of those really fall into the same definition as the word "proof", or at least not what would be considered 100% proof.

 

Yes. One bit of information confirmed what was heretofore speculation based on nearly six years worth of circumstantial evidence (though that was quite compelling in its own right).

 

-J

 

What's that information? I'm genuinely curious.

 

These other gentleman that you see trying to go back and forth with me on this issue has been done on more than one occasion with literally the same three or four individuals. Having noticed that, another Diamond account holding boardie reached out to me in a PM and asked me if I would like him to pool his contacts and see what he could dig up. Of course I said yes. Several days later he got back to me and stated that the book had no more than a two case pack run of 225 each, but he was waiting to hear back from one more source to confirm. A day or two later he got back to me and stated that it was confirmed with him that the book was only a one case pack run of 225, and that there was some additional chatter about some damages happening to even those copies at some point during distribution. He frankly has no reason to lie, nor do I, as, although I certainly .paid a healthy premium for my copy, I have an ample amount of equity in it and I will never sell (in spite of the multiple $8k+ offers I have also received for it). Though I must confess to be mildly a used and bemused by the dogged determination of these few gentleman boardies kwho have an established history of clique-ing up together, particularly on the topic of this one unique book ) to deny even the most powerful circumstantial evidence, let alone what a Diamond or Marvel rep might disclose.

 

-J.

 

In other words, you have no proof.

 

'Only' if you ignore all of the other plainly visible circumstantial evidence over the nearly six year history of the book (of which there is plenty). And FYI, even circumstantial evidence is enough for conviction in many , many murder trials.

 

J.

[Prince Namor]

In all the time I've been on the boards though, I have to say... that is quite easily the funniest story masquerading as proof, I've ever heard.... all the more hilarious by jay's earnest delivery of it.

 

"Six years after the fact, my secret friend, who's 'in-the-know', culled his contacts, who are also quite 'secret', at both Marvel and Diamond, and told me the story behind the VARIANT PRINT RUN of this 1:100 SIX YEAR OLD COMIC, information that - is unavailable to ANYONE, even guys like John Jackson Miller who have basically devoted their life to print run information, and now I can share it here with YOU. Pay no attention to the fact that I own a copy of this book!"

 

Freaking hilarious.

[Jaydogrules]

In all the time I've been on the boards though, I have to say... that is quite easily the funniest story masquerading as proof, I've ever heard.... all the more hilarious by jay's earnest delivery of it.

 

"Six years after the fact, my secret friend, who's 'in-the-know', culled his contacts, who are also quite 'secret', at both Marvel and Diamond, and told me the story behind the VARIANT PRINT RUN of this 1:100 SIX YEAR OLD COMIC, information that - is unavailable to ANYONE, even guys like John Jackson Miller who have basically devoted their life to print run information, and now I can share it here with YOU. Pay no attention to the fact that I own a copy of this book!"

 

Freaking hilarious.

 

In all your years on the boards you've never seen a book like the ASM #667 Dell'otto.

 

-J.

[ChiSoxFan]

Unless something has changed dramatically since my time when I owned a shop back in the late 1990's (and unfortunately had to deal with Diamond), the people that worked at Diamond were usually uninformed over the most basic things (my "favorite" memory from that time was having my entire shipment held one week without warning due to "non-payment" of a previous order -- despite the fact that I sent our checks certified mail requiring signature, had the name of the person who signed for it at Diamond, and the check had already cleared my bank. ).

 

Unless I heard something directly from someone at Marvel -- the publisher themselves -- and it was someone directly involved in the printing process, any claim of facts one way or the other is simply noise and speculation.

 

His Diamond contact reached out to other sources. Don't know if it was someone at Marvel or the printer though, he couldn't elaborate either way because the info is supposed to be proprietary.

 

-J.

 

There's some irony in the smiley you're using there having the code of "gossip", since that's still what it is.

 

The book might have 225 copies printed. Or 22,500 copies. Or somewhere in between. And there's as good a chance that this "Marvel or printer" contact was being truthful to this "Diamond contact" as he was being purposefully misdirecting. What incentive is there for anyone at Marvel to share numbers with anyone else, other than for them to possibly lose their job?

 

I work at a casino. There are things you can ask me about our procedures and the way we do things and I'll tell you the truth. And there are other things I'll straight up lie to you about because there's no incentive for me to tell you, and it could get me in trouble to tell you the truth about them. Every company I've worked for has always been the same.

 

. The 225 number basically just confirmed most of the speculation that was going on anyway , as well as all the circumstantial evidence that's been readily apparent since shorty after the book was originally released going on, what , six years now I believe.

 

-J.

 

In a sentence with the word "confirmed" in it, you also used the words "speculation" and "circumstantial" and "apparent". I'm not an English major (actually I was once, but I can't prove that unless I show you my college transcripts ), but none of those really fall into the same definition as the word "proof", or at least not what would be considered 100% proof.

 

Yes. One bit of information confirmed what was heretofore speculation based on nearly six years worth of circumstantial evidence (though that was quite compelling in its own right).

 

-J

 

What's that information? I'm genuinely curious.

 

These other gentleman that you see trying to go back and forth with me on this issue has been done on more than one occasion with literally the same three or four individuals. Having noticed that, another Diamond account holding boardie reached out to me in a PM and asked me if I would like him to pool his contacts and see what he could dig up. Of course I said yes. Several days later he got back to me and stated that the book had no more than a two case pack run of 425, but he was waiting to hear back from one more source to confirm. A day or two later he got back to me and stated that it was confirmed with him that the book was only a one case pack run of 225, and that there was some additional chatter about some damages happening to even those copies at some point during distribution. He frankly has no reason to lie, nor do I, as, although I ceeyainlt.paid a healthy premium for my copy, I have an ample amount of equity in it and I will never sell (in spite of the multiple $8k+ offers I have also received for it). Though I must confess to be mildly a used and bemused by the dogged determination of these few gentleman boardies kwho have an established history of cliquing up together ) to deny even the most powerful circumstantial evidence, let alone what a Diamond or Marvel rep might disclose.

 

-J.

 

I'm not saying the book isn't valuable, or sought after. I'm not saying it doesn't have a minuscule print run, or that anyone is lying or fudging numbers.

 

I'm simply stating that, without attaching actual names to statements, and the ability to verify claims made by anyone, it's still speculation, even if it turns out to be 100% accurate. Overstreet is filled with books that are labeled still labeled as "scarce", when it turned out some aren't as much so as was once believed for literally decades. Six years is a short time in the comic book world. There's no argument that the book is incredibly hard to find now, and may remain so in the future -- but again, without actual proof -- real names, real positions withing a company to verify, real documents or eyewitness evidence during a printing -- what you describe is known as hearsay.

 

I have no vested interest in the book. I like a lot of Dell'otto's work, and I'm an ASM collector, but this book just would never be on my radar. I long stopped the idea of being a "completist" when the variant craze took off, so I'll never own a copy (I don't particularly like this cover, so that's part of it, but to each their own ). If anyone spends large money on this because they love the artist or do like the art on this cover, more power to them and they've done so for the right reason. If anyone did so as an investment, then I hope it works out for them -- the main thing in play there will be whether Dell'otto is still a highly collected artist 15-20 years from now, and there are way too many factors that could play into that to know for sure (unless one of these sources owns a DeLorean and a working Flux Capacitor too. ).

[Prince Namor]

Unless something has changed dramatically since my time when I owned a shop back in the late 1990's (and unfortunately had to deal with Diamond), the people that worked at Diamond were usually uninformed over the most basic things (my "favorite" memory from that time was having my entire shipment held one week without warning due to "non-payment" of a previous order -- despite the fact that I sent our checks certified mail requiring signature, had the name of the person who signed for it at Diamond, and the check had already cleared my bank. ).

 

Unless I heard something directly from someone at Marvel -- the publisher themselves -- and it was someone directly involved in the printing process, any claim of facts one way or the other is simply noise and speculation.

 

His Diamond contact reached out to other sources. Don't know if it was someone at Marvel or the printer though, he couldn't elaborate either way because the info is supposed to be proprietary.

 

-J.

 

There's some irony in the smiley you're using there having the code of "gossip", since that's still what it is.

 

The book might have 225 copies printed. Or 22,500 copies. Or somewhere in between. And there's as good a chance that this "Marvel or printer" contact was being truthful to this "Diamond contact" as he was being purposefully misdirecting. What incentive is there for anyone at Marvel to share numbers with anyone else, other than for them to possibly lose their job?

 

I work at a casino. There are things you can ask me about our procedures and the way we do things and I'll tell you the truth. And there are other things I'll straight up lie to you about because there's no incentive for me to tell you, and it could get me in trouble to tell you the truth about them. Every company I've worked for has always been the same.

 

. The 225 number basically just confirmed most of the speculation that was going on anyway , as well as all the circumstantial evidence that's been readily apparent since shorty after the book was originally released going on, what , six years now I believe.

 

-J.

 

In a sentence with the word "confirmed" in it, you also used the words "speculation" and "circumstantial" and "apparent". I'm not an English major (actually I was once, but I can't prove that unless I show you my college transcripts ), but none of those really fall into the same definition as the word "proof", or at least not what would be considered 100% proof.

 

Yes. One bit of information confirmed what was heretofore speculation based on nearly six years worth of circumstantial evidence (though that was quite compelling in its own right).

 

-J

 

What's that information? I'm genuinely curious.

 

These other gentleman that you see trying to go back and forth with me on this issue has been done on more than one occasion with literally the same three or four individuals. Having noticed that, another Diamond account holding boardie reached out to me in a PM and asked me if I would like him to pool his contacts and see what he could dig up. Of course I said yes. Several days later he got back to me and stated that the book had no more than a two case pack run of 225 each, but he was waiting to hear back from one more source to confirm. A day or two later he got back to me and stated that it was confirmed with him that the book was only a one case pack run of 225, and that there was some additional chatter about some damages happening to even those copies at some point during distribution. He frankly has no reason to lie, nor do I, as, although I certainly .paid a healthy premium for my copy, I have an ample amount of equity in it and I will never sell (in spite of the multiple $8k+ offers I have also received for it). Though I must confess to be mildly a used and bemused by the dogged determination of these few gentleman boardies kwho have an established history of clique-ing up together, particularly on the topic of this one unique book ) to deny even the most powerful circumstantial evidence, let alone what a Diamond or Marvel rep might disclose.

 

-J.

 

In other words, you have no proof.

 

'Only' if you ignore all of the other plainly visible circumstantial evidence over the nearly six year history of the book (of which there is plenty). And FYI, even circumstantial evidence is enough for conviction in many , many murder trials.

 

J.

 

There's no circumstantial evidence here either.

 

I've already proven to you:

A) Print runs INCLUDE variants. Remember how you didn't believe that? Proof!

B) Case pack has nothing to do with what is printed. Publication statements for DECADES showed us that publishers print in the most bizarre uneven numbers imaginable.Proof!

C) Ratio of variant has nothing to do with how many are printed. I ordered 50 copies of Original Sin #1 1:50 variant in the last sale for 25 cents each! Publishers give away these books all year long to retailers as special incentives. Proof!

D) Oh look, Marvel currently has ANOTHER variant sale going on RIGHT NOW! How do they have so many extras? Proof!

E) And now... 1:100 damages would be news to every publisher upon it happening. When 1:100's don't show up...retailers are quick to complain and communicate to each other. There's no record of this occurring.

 

[Jaydogrules]

You obviously don't know the meaning of "circumstantial evidence". Nor would you know or necessarily hear about unfulfilled orders on a book if only a handful of retailers actually knew about the book to order it in the first place (and that's assuming they even had the qualifying orders).

 

And remaindered case packs of books being sold by Marvel nobody ordered are not relevant to this conversation.

 

So I will break this down for you one more time, and then leave you to stew in your anguish regarding this book.

 

Circumstantial Evidence:

 

1) Only 29 copies on the census, nearly six years after release, and despite sales of raw copies in the thousands since 2012 (a year after it was released). For some perspective, the Vader Down #1 Sketch variant is a 1:5000 and has 27 copies on the census after less than one year. I know the print runs are not the same, but still, a point worth making.

 

2) Only 7 public sales in those nearly six years.

 

3) Only two raw copies sold publicly in 2016, and just 2 in 2015.

 

All of this is supported by the direct evidence as communicated by the other boardie who looked into things as an unsolicited favour.

 

And to my earlier point about there never being a book like this one, well here you go:

 

1) Name one other variant, in a flagship title, that was announced after the initial dealer FOC (final order cut-off), and for only one week, with no prior announcements whatsoever.

 

2) Name one other variant in a flagship title, where the incentive offered to obtain it, was literally directly undercut and undermined by competing ordering qualifications of the other variant that was offered at the same time, thus further suppressing its numbers

 

3) Name one variant in a flagship title (Spider-man, for godssake ) that sells for thousands and thousands of dollars for years, and yet remains a ghost.

 

Whether you choose to believe it or accept it, is irrelevant. Nothing you say matters. Nothing I say matters. It is what it is.

 

There is truly nothing else like it. It's an anomaly. A freak. An aberration. A fluke. In our hobby, that's like catnip.

 

-J.

[DWL]

In all the time I've been on the boards though, I have to say... that is quite easily the funniest story masquerading as proof, I've ever heard.... all the more hilarious by jay's earnest delivery of it.

 

"Six years after the fact, my secret friend, who's 'in-the-know', culled his contacts, who are also quite 'secret', at both Marvel and Diamond, and told me the story behind the VARIANT PRINT RUN of this 1:100 SIX YEAR OLD COMIC, information that - is unavailable to ANYONE, even guys like John Jackson Miller who have basically devoted their life to print run information, and now I can share it here with YOU. Pay no attention to the fact that I own a copy of this book!"

 

Freaking hilarious.

 

In all your years on the boards you've never seen a book like the ASM #667 Dell'otto.

 

-J.

 

It is claims like the one above that make me suspicious of attempts to manipulate the market value of this book.

 

I have never commented on this book before so we can put aside any silly notion it is just a small clique whom question your assertion as to how many copies were printed. I have seen no evidence on your part to back up your claim and yet, for whatever reason, you seem adamant in ensuring the perception of rarity regarding this book. You may be correct, but your "evidence" does not support how factual you try to be.

 

Couple that with the information this book seems to often "sell" off the table where no actual record of the sale exists and perhaps you can appreciate why some might be suspicious.

 

In the end it is just a comic book, not really that important in the grand scheme of things. But if someone is trying to manipulate the market for their own benefit, don't be surprised if people speak up, loudly and emphatically.

 

My

[Jaydogrules]

In all the time I've been on the boards though, I have to say... that is quite easily the funniest story masquerading as proof, I've ever heard.... all the more hilarious by jay's earnest delivery of it.

 

"Six years after the fact, my secret friend, who's 'in-the-know', culled his contacts, who are also quite 'secret', at both Marvel and Diamond, and told me the story behind the VARIANT PRINT RUN of this 1:100 SIX YEAR OLD COMIC, information that - is unavailable to ANYONE, even guys like John Jackson Miller who have basically devoted their life to print run information, and now I can share it here with YOU. Pay no attention to the fact that I own a copy of this book!"

 

Freaking hilarious.

 

In all your years on the boards you've never seen a book like the ASM #667 Dell'otto.

 

-J.

 

It is claims like the one above that make me suspicious of attempts to manipulate the market value of this book.

 

I have never commented on this book before so we can put aside any silly notion it is just a small clique whom question your assertion as to how many copies were printed. I have seen no evidence on your part to back up your claim and yet, for whatever reason, you seem adamant in ensuring the perception of rarity regarding this book. You may be correct, but your "evidence" does not support how factual you try to be.

 

Couple that with the information this book seems to often "sell" off the table where no actual record of the sale exists and perhaps you can appreciate why some might be suspicious.

 

In the end it is just a comic book, not really that important in the grand scheme of things. But if someone is trying to manipulate the market for their own benefit, don't be surprised if people speak up, loudly and emphatically.

 

My

 

I don't need to offer any "evidence" (although I just did two posts back) and I honestly don't care what you believe. I have no reason or motivation to "manipulate" anything, the book sells for what it does all by itself because it has been what it has been for years, whether or not you or anyone else here was aware of it prior.

 

Oh, and there was a public sale of a 9.6 of $4k seven moths ago, and a raw Fine copy for $2500 last March..

 

-J.

[DWL]

In all the time I've been on the boards though, I have to say... that is quite easily the funniest story masquerading as proof, I've ever heard.... all the more hilarious by jay's earnest delivery of it.

 

"Six years after the fact, my secret friend, who's 'in-the-know', culled his contacts, who are also quite 'secret', at both Marvel and Diamond, and told me the story behind the VARIANT PRINT RUN of this 1:100 SIX YEAR OLD COMIC, information that - is unavailable to ANYONE, even guys like John Jackson Miller who have basically devoted their life to print run information, and now I can share it here with YOU. Pay no attention to the fact that I own a copy of this book!"

 

Freaking hilarious.

 

In all your years on the boards you've never seen a book like the ASM #667 Dell'otto.

 

-J.

 

It is claims like the one above that make me suspicious of attempts to manipulate the market value of this book.

 

I have never commented on this book before so we can put aside any silly notion it is just a small clique whom question your assertion as to how many copies were printed. I have seen no evidence on your part to back up your claim and yet, for whatever reason, you seem adamant in ensuring the perception of rarity regarding this book. You may be correct, but your "evidence" does not support how factual you try to be.

 

Couple that with the information this book seems to often "sell" off the table where no actual record of the sale exists and perhaps you can appreciate why some might be suspicious.

 

In the end it is just a comic book, not really that important in the grand scheme of things. But if someone is trying to manipulate the market for their own benefit, don't be surprised if people speak up, loudly and emphatically.

 

My

 

I don't need to offer any "evidence" (although I just did two posts back) and I honestly don't care what you believe. I have no reason or motivation to "manipulate" anything, the book sells for what it does all by itself because it has been what it has been for years, whether or not you or anyone else here was aware of it prior.

 

Oh, and there was a public sale of a 9.6 of $4k seven moths ago, and a raw Fine copy for $2500 last March..

 

-J.

 

I thought you owned a copy? If you don't own a copy, my mistake, I misunderstood.

 

If you do own a copy, you have reason to manipulate the value. Not saying you are doing so, just implying that owning a copy would provide (at least for some) a reason for doing so.

[Jaydogrules]

In all the time I've been on the boards though, I have to say... that is quite easily the funniest story masquerading as proof, I've ever heard.... all the more hilarious by jay's earnest delivery of it.

 

"Six years after the fact, my secret friend, who's 'in-the-know', culled his contacts, who are also quite 'secret', at both Marvel and Diamond, and told me the story behind the VARIANT PRINT RUN of this 1:100 SIX YEAR OLD COMIC, information that - is unavailable to ANYONE, even guys like John Jackson Miller who have basically devoted their life to print run information, and now I can share it here with YOU. Pay no attention to the fact that I own a copy of this book!"

 

Freaking hilarious.

 

In all your years on the boards you've never seen a book like the ASM #667 Dell'otto.

 

-J.

 

It is claims like the one above that make me suspicious of attempts to manipulate the market value of this book.

 

I have never commented on this book before so we can put aside any silly notion it is just a small clique whom question your assertion as to how many copies were printed. I have seen no evidence on your part to back up your claim and yet, for whatever reason, you seem adamant in ensuring the perception of rarity regarding this book. You may be correct, but your "evidence" does not support how factual you try to be.

 

Couple that with the information this book seems to often "sell" off the table where no actual record of the sale exists and perhaps you can appreciate why some might be suspicious.

 

In the end it is just a comic book, not really that important in the grand scheme of things. But if someone is trying to manipulate the market for their own benefit, don't be surprised if people speak up, loudly and emphatically.

 

My

 

I don't need to offer any "evidence" (although I just did two posts back) and I honestly don't care what you believe. I have no reason or motivation to "manipulate" anything, the book sells for what it does all by itself because it has been what it has been for years, whether or not you or anyone else here was aware of it prior.

 

Oh, and there was a public sale of a 9.6 of $4k seven moths ago, and a raw Fine copy for $2500 last March..

 

-J.

 

I thought you owned a copy? If you don't own a copy, my mistake, I misunderstood.

 

If you do own a copy, you have reason to manipulate the value. Not saying you are doing so, just implying that owning a copy would provide (at least for some) a reason for doing so.

 

Yes I own a copy. For several years now. This book and its history have fascinated me since I first learned of it. But I did not start this thread advertising this sale. Obviously I have an interest in what they go for, but that goes for every book in my collection. It's only this book (and maybe a couple of other rare modern variants that also sell for big money) that seem to bother these same people.

 

-J.

[Pitboss]

Methinks this thread will end like the other one did

[grebal]

Hey, thanks ChiSoxFan/Randall !

 

I expected maybe this was one you couldn't mention (in Vegas they can be rough at times on the way to the door and being "trespassed" (no longer welcome or it's trespass). Or maybe you'd mention countermeasures (like no mid-shoe entry or bet spreads greater than 1:4 or something). I appreciate your insights.

[Fan Boy]

Unless something has changed dramatically since my time when I owned a shop back in the late 1990's (and unfortunately had to deal with Diamond), the people that worked at Diamond were usually uninformed over the most basic things (my "favorite" memory from that time was having my entire shipment held one week without warning due to "non-payment" of a previous order -- despite the fact that I sent our checks certified mail requiring signature, had the name of the person who signed for it at Diamond, and the check had already cleared my bank. ).

 

Unless I heard something directly from someone at Marvel -- the publisher themselves -- and it was someone directly involved in the printing process, any claim of facts one way or the other is simply noise and speculation.

 

His Diamond contact reached out to other sources. Don't know if it was someone at Marvel or the printer though, he couldn't elaborate either way because the info is supposed to be proprietary.

 

-J.

 

There's some irony in the smiley you're using there having the code of "gossip", since that's still what it is.

 

The book might have 225 copies printed. Or 22,500 copies. Or somewhere in between. And there's as good a chance that this "Marvel or printer" contact was being truthful to this "Diamond contact" as he was being purposefully misdirecting. What incentive is there for anyone at Marvel to share numbers with anyone else, other than for them to possibly lose their job?

 

I work at a casino. There are things you can ask me about our procedures and the way we do things and I'll tell you the truth. And there are other things I'll straight up lie to you about because there's no incentive for me to tell you, and it could get me in trouble to tell you the truth about them. Every company I've worked for has always been the same.

 

. The 225 number basically just confirmed most of the speculation that was going on anyway , as well as all the circumstantial evidence that's been readily apparent since shorty after the book was originally released going on, what , six years now I believe.

 

-J.

 

In a sentence with the word "confirmed" in it, you also used the words "speculation" and "circumstantial" and "apparent". I'm not an English major (actually I was once, but I can't prove that unless I show you my college transcripts ), but none of those really fall into the same definition as the word "proof", or at least not what would be considered 100% proof.

 

Yes. One bit of information confirmed what was heretofore speculation based on nearly six years worth of circumstantial evidence (though that was quite compelling in its own right).

 

-J

 

What's that information? I'm genuinely curious.

 

These other gentleman that you see trying to go back and forth with me on this issue has been done on more than one occasion with literally the same three or four individuals. Having noticed that, another Diamond account holding boardie reached out to me in a PM and asked me if I would like him to pool his contacts and see what he could dig up. Of course I said yes. Several days later he got back to me and stated that the book had no more than a two case pack run of 425, but he was waiting to hear back from one more source to confirm. A day or two later he got back to me and stated that it was confirmed with him that the book was only a one case pack run of 225, and that there was some additional chatter about some damages happening to even those copies at some point during distribution. He frankly has no reason to lie, nor do I, as, although I ceeyainlt.paid a healthy premium for my copy, I have an ample amount of equity in it and I will never sell (in spite of the multiple $8k+ offers I have also received for it). Though I must confess to be mildly a used and bemused by the dogged determination of these few gentleman boardies kwho have an established history of cliquing up together ) to deny even the most powerful circumstantial evidence, let alone what a Diamond or Marvel rep might disclose.

 

-J.

 

I'm not saying the book isn't valuable, or sought after. I'm not saying it doesn't have a minuscule print run, or that anyone is lying or fudging numbers.

 

I'm simply stating that, without attaching actual names to statements, and the ability to verify claims made by anyone, it's still speculation, even if it turns out to be 100% accurate. Overstreet is filled with books that are labeled still labeled as "scarce", when it turned out some aren't as much so as was once believed for literally decades. Six years is a short time in the comic book world. There's no argument that the book is incredibly hard to find now, and may remain so in the future -- but again, without actual proof -- real names, real positions withing a company to verify, real documents or eyewitness evidence during a printing -- what you describe is known as hearsay.

 

I have no vested interest in the book. I like a lot of Dell'otto's work, and I'm an ASM collector, but this book just would never be on my radar. I long stopped the idea of being a "completist" when the variant craze took off, so I'll never own a copy (I don't particularly like this cover, so that's part of it, but to each their own ). If anyone spends large money on this because they love the artist or do like the art on this cover, more power to them and they've done so for the right reason. If anyone did so as an investment, then I hope it works out for them -- the main thing in play there will be whether Dell'otto is still a highly collected artist 15-20 years from now, and there are way too many factors that could play into that to know for sure (unless one of these sources owns a DeLorean and a working Flux Capacitor too. ).

 

ChiSoxFan, This I do agree with you above your statement. I see jaydogrules' posts about the ASM 667 variant from the start. Sorry, but I find that amusing! Hey, if the buyer is happy with this book ... more power to the buyer. For me, it means nothing to me since I am not an completist on ASM anyway. Same goes to today's variants whatever how many numbers is printed. They are not the same as the variants of the 1980s or before.

 

Jaydogrules, sorry but no matter how many times you kept on saying the 225 number. It is only YOUR word here. No verification? No word from Marvel? Do you have a psychical document to say this actual number? Again, it is only your word.

 

It might well be one of my friends standing next to me, saying the same what you say. I would nodded my head. Do I believe it? Of course not, I need to see proof to support that. Right now, everyone everywhere are throwing rumours about everything daily, it's hard to take one as gospel with a grain of salt!

 

Don't blame us here, ok? It just is that way. Speculations, as ChiSoxFan had said, can be like rumours or hunches. Go look up in thesaurus for the meanings. And go see the antonyms of your word! Same for your "Diamond" friend's word.

 

I'm done here.

 

 

[Broke as a Joke]

How do we know there hasn't been transactions for raw copies of this book that weren't public? It seems even when slabbed copies of this book sells it is not reported by gpa. Not sure what to believe...

[DWL]

It is not my intention to personally attack Jaydogrules. Nor would I want the thread to be locked or go poof.

 

Just to be clear. People are free to spend whatever they wish on whatever comic they wish. All the power to them and I hope they are happy with what they collect.

 

I just wanted to convey my sense of why there might be some suspicion or "backlash" to this particular book.

 

 

[Prince Namor]

 

1) Only 29 copies on the census, nearly six years after release, and despite sales of raw copies in the thousands since 2012 (a year after it was released). For some perspective, the Vader Down #1 Sketch variant is a 1:5000 and has 27 copies on the census after less than one year. I know the print runs are not the same, but still, a point worth making.

 

CGC Census has nothing to do with print run. There is absolutely no correlation that can be made from these numbers. Zero. Any knowledgeable comic fan with any real experience in the market or any statistics expert would tell you that your comparison makes no sense.

 

2) Only 6 public sales in those nearly six years.

Once again... well let me explain it to you like this. Without the private sales numbers, which of course, we don't have, that information is possibly misleading, because it's inconclusive.

 

3) Only two raw copies sold publicly in 2016, and just 2 in 2015.

Without the private sales numbers, which of course, we don't have, that information is possibly misleading, because it's inconclusive.

 

All of this is supported by the direct evidence as communicated by the other boardie who looked into things as an unsolicited favour.

 

That's NOT evidence as it's simply what you SAY. There's no proof. Someone could just as easily come on here and say HE talked to someone at Marvel who told him it DIDN'T happen that way. It's all just heresy.

 

1) Name one other variant, in a flagship title, that was announced after the initial dealer FOC (final order cut-off), and for only one week, with no prior announcements whatsoever.

It was announced on the 15th, 3 days before FOC, not after. The announcement is still searchable in Diamond Daily News. Marvel makes last minute announcements for variants all of the time to try and bump up orders.

 

2) Name one other variant in a flagship title, where the incentive offered to obtain it, was literally directly undercut and undermined by competing ordering qualifications of the other variant that was offered at the same time, thus further suppressing its numbers

How'd it undercut? The more you order the more you get. Any additional variants including the FF Anniversary would help bump up it's numbers.

 

3) Name one variant in a flagship title (Spider-man, for godssake ) that sells for thousands and thousands of dollars for years, and yet remains a ghost.

That doesn't verify it's print run or the reasons.

 

Whether you choose to believe it or accept it, is irrelevant. Nothing you say matters. Nothing I say matters. It is what it is.

Sure it does. The truth matters. And you're not telling the truth. You're speculating and making up information for why you think it is. THAT is what doesn't matter. Because you don't truly know.

 

There is truly nothing else like it. It's an anomaly. A freak. An aberration. A fluke. In our hobby, that's like catnip.

 

-J.

As someone else pointed out... 6 years is a very short time in this hobby. A hobby that has plenty of other, at one time or another, short printed books that proved NOT to be. History is NOT on your side.