General discussion thread - keep the other threads clean 29 29

[jimjum12]

An Avengers 57 just sold by PM in this thread:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=8508902

 

A poster then makes a statement that the book looks trimmed on 3 sides. After comparing it to a graded copy I have it certainly looks like it is missing quite a bit of art on top & bottom edges.

 

Is it appropriate to discuss this type stuff in a sales thread?

 

I do not think it is appropriate.

 

But I had sent the seller a pm before the sale was completed letting him know I thought the book had CT in the clouds. He replied saying he did not think it was restored and then the book sold.

 

The PM was a conscientious decision.

 

Though one might note that, in this case, the seller did post in his text description, "Questions, please shout out."

 

...the one red flag I see in his listing (...other than the book, of course) is the lack of a return policy. It may be an oversight on his part. He also may be a poor judge of restoration.....he should probably stick to selling slabbed books if this is the case. I know if I somehow missed something that obvious, I wouldn't mind having it pointed out..... but that's me. It would certainly be better than off a buyer. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[HighRadArt]

Can't say it was trimmed without the book in hand but that CT is hard to miss. For that amount of money, I would hope someone from the boards would let me know a book had CT if I had missed it.

[boomtown]

Just a general question on trimming. I've always thought that the width of a book could vary because of the cutting process getting out of alignment, but I always assumed that the height of a book would stay relatively even.

 

When lining this book up in photoshop with a few copies I have, it looks like there is approx 3/16"-1/4" missing on the height. Approx 1/8"+ off the top & 1/16" off the bottom.

[NinjaSealed]

I think this might be an All_Thing_Comics book, I think I remember seeing this book or a similar one on auction from them in the last few months.

 

I personally think it is fine to post it in a thread in this situation(no different than posting incorrect GPA information for instance) and a seller should be glad they get the chance to learn how to detect resto better and saves headaches for both parties later down the line.

[jimjum12]

Just a general question on trimming. I've always thought that the width of a book could vary because of the cutting process getting out of alignment, but I always assumed that the height of a book would stay relatively even.

 

When lining this book up in photoshop with a few copies I have, it looks like there is approx 3/16"-1/4" missing on the height. Approx 1/8"+ off the top & 1/16" off the bottom.

 

....this is a tough question, as slight variations can occur. For the most part I would think you've made the right assumption. This particular book is a World Color job. The production quality from their plant was quite a bit better than Marvel's previous printer, Eastern. They switched not too long before Avengers 57 went to press..... but it seems that certain titles went to World sooner than others. The printer is usually listed in the indicia..... and books from Eastern, basically anything from 1966 and earlier, can exhibit significant flaws and dimensional anomalies from book to book. The further back you go the worse it can be..... so bad that you really can't place different copies of the same book next to each other as a 100% comparison. Books from the 50's to early 60's are the absolute worst..... some issues can be very difficult to find nicely centered and "square".GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

Edited April 5, 2015 by jimjum12

[crassus]

There are plenty of people who think a seller has no obligation to disclose this type of thing if they don't agree with other's opinion on resto.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=8493007#Post8493007

 

 

Thanks for posting the link. I think what strikes me most about that discussion, the specific case aside, is the general ambivalence about the purpose and impact of a third party grading company and its standards in the market place.

 

Here with this sale I think it comes back to intangibles like "good faith". No person can be expected to treat every opinion as equally valid. Conversely, one cannot responsibly ignore expert opinions, even if they are too, technically, capable of error. Than it just looks self-serving.

[jimjum12]

There are plenty of people who think a seller has no obligation to disclose this type of thing if they don't agree with other's opinion on resto.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=8493007#Post8493007

 

 

Thanks for posting the link. I think what strikes me most about that discussion, the specific case aside, is the general ambivalence about the purpose and impact of a third party grading company and its standards in the market place.

 

Here with this sale I think it comes back to intangibles like "good faith". No person can be expected to treat every opinion as equally valid. Conversely, one cannot responsibly ignore expert opinions, even if they are too, technically, capable of error. Than it just looks self-serving.

 

...in all fairness, the discussion didn't involve something as simple as just disagreeing with CGC (for the most part...).....it was in regards to a hypothetical situation in which a person submits an original owner book, known to untouched, and what the responsibility would be as far as disclosing that information when the seller KNOWS that a mistake was made at CGC. This would be a very rare occurrence (which HAS happened a very few times) and is unfair to be used in the context of someone totally disregarding CGC's edict across the board. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

....in regards to the book discussed in the linked thread..... it was returned raw with only heresay to indicate CGC ever reviewed it (i.e. not in a slab....)....and CGC did not actually finish the slabbing process.....

Edited April 5, 2015 by jimjum12

[wombat]

Not to rehash that entire thread, but I believe someone confirmed with CGC directly that it was noted by them it was trimmed and then the customer stopped the grading process. I don't think it is really "heresay".

[jimjum12]

Not to rehash that entire thread, but I believe someone confirmed with CGC directly that it was noted by them it was trimmed and then the customer stopped the grading process. I don't think it is really "heresay".

 

...it wasn't returned in the slab..... not even CGC would recognize it as valid. I agree with you on many of your concerns about the ethics involved in that case, but if someone sent me a raw book back and "claimed" CGC had graded it, I would be very skeptical....especially if I didn't know them. There is no way to definitively associate the book with the process without the slab..... GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a fiend of jesus) (thumbs u

[fastballspecial]

This last page has taught me quite a bit about CT and trimming. Great info.

 

If the seller isn't answering PMs I hope like hell the buyer is.

 

Edited April 5, 2015 by Fastballspecial

[jaybuck43]

Not to rehash that entire thread, but I believe someone confirmed with CGC directly that it was noted by them it was trimmed and then the customer stopped the grading process. I don't think it is really "heresay".

 

...it wasn't returned in the slab..... not even CGC would recognize it as valid. I agree with you on many of your concerns about the ethics involved in that case, but if someone sent me a raw book back and "claimed" CGC had graded it, I would be very skeptical....especially if I didn't know them. There is no way to definitively associate the book with the process without the slab..... GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a fiend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that CGC started the grading process, marked it as trimmed, and then refunded the grading costs and sent the book back. My understanding was once you sent the books in they graded them, unless you paid for prescreen service etc but even that costs extra and isn't for restoration checks etc.

[jimjum12]

Not to rehash that entire thread, but I believe someone confirmed with CGC directly that it was noted by them it was trimmed and then the customer stopped the grading process. I don't think it is really "heresay".

 

...it wasn't returned in the slab..... not even CGC would recognize it as valid. I agree with you on many of your concerns about the ethics involved in that case, but if someone sent me a raw book back and "claimed" CGC had graded it, I would be very skeptical....especially if I didn't know them. There is no way to definitively associate the book with the process without the slab..... GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a fiend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that CGC started the grading process, marked it as trimmed, and then refunded the grading costs and sent the book back. My understanding was once you sent the books in they graded them, unless you paid for prescreen service etc but even that costs extra and isn't for restoration checks etc.

 

....this is most likely the reason that the seller is refusing to accept the consensus. This is the first time I'd ever heard of this even being possible.... but it does seem to have occurred. The book still looks like an obvious trim....it almost looks like you can see a line on it that was drawn on it as a guide GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[thehumantorch]

I'm not good at color touch detection unless it's obvious and there was bleed through.

 

I can see different shades of pink along the spine if that is what everyone is referencing. But the book has a slight curve at the top left near the spine and bottome right which makes me think trimming is a concern.

 

I circled what I consider the most obvious bit of ct. It's the extra deep pink line in the clouds by the spine. Above and below that in the black area by the spine contains a lot of black ct. You'll see wear that breaks color and "mysteriously" disappears into a lighter shade of black ct. The space where the bottom edge of the top staple meets the fc is a convenient place to look. There's other black ct throughout the cover too.

 

 

It also seems apparent in the black under the 12¢ Ind. box

 

That's the most obvious to me, looks like it was smeared on in horizontal strokes. It also looks like the cover doesn't project past the pages like it should - no overhang. When someone trims an outside edge they'll even up the cover and interior.

[jaybuck43]

Jim, my thought is that CGC makes the statement numerous times that a determination, including on the type of restoration etc is not official until the book is shipped. So I guess that the seller is saying here "well the book was never shipped so maybe it was an accident by CGC when they were entering the information to mark it as apparent.

[jimjum12]

Jim, my thought is that CGC makes the statement numerous times that a determination, including on the type of restoration etc is not official until the book is shipped. So I guess that the seller is saying here "well the book was never shipped so maybe it was an accident by CGC when they were entering the information to mark it as apparent.

 

...and if it weren't so obvious that the book did, indeed, have exactly that same problem as stated, one could easily dismiss it as a clerical error. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[DR.X]

when i suspect trimming on a book I slip a backing board between the cover and first page. sometimes it sticks out like a sore thumb. to me the outside edge is a bit easier as the overlay of the pages is gone when they cut the book. just my

[Sqeggs]

Not to rehash that entire thread, but I believe someone confirmed with CGC directly that it was noted by them it was trimmed and then the customer stopped the grading process. I don't think it is really "heresay".

 

...it wasn't returned in the slab..... not even CGC would recognize it as valid. I agree with you on many of your concerns about the ethics involved in that case, but if someone sent me a raw book back and "claimed" CGC had graded it, I would be very skeptical....especially if I didn't know them. There is no way to definitively associate the book with the process without the slab..... GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a fiend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that CGC started the grading process, marked it as trimmed, and then refunded the grading costs and sent the book back. My understanding was once you sent the books in they graded them, unless you paid for prescreen service etc but even that costs extra and isn't for restoration checks etc.

 

Do they note "Trimmed" at the "Scheduled for grading" phase? I didn't think they did. The grades themselves aren't available until the "Shipped" phase, or that's my understanding. Once it gets that far, the book has been slabbed and I would be surprised if there is any way to get your grading fees back just because the book turned out to be trimmed.

[skypinkblu]

Not to rehash that entire thread, but I believe someone confirmed with CGC directly that it was noted by them it was trimmed and then the customer stopped the grading process. I don't think it is really "heresay".

 

...it wasn't returned in the slab..... not even CGC would recognize it as valid. I agree with you on many of your concerns about the ethics involved in that case, but if someone sent me a raw book back and "claimed" CGC had graded it, I would be very skeptical....especially if I didn't know them. There is no way to definitively associate the book with the process without the slab..... GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a fiend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that CGC started the grading process, marked it as trimmed, and then refunded the grading costs and sent the book back. My understanding was once you sent the books in they graded them, unless you paid for prescreen service etc but even that costs extra and isn't for restoration checks etc.

 

....this is most likely the reason that the seller is refusing to accept the consensus. This is the first time I'd ever heard of this even being possible.... but it does seem to have occurred. The book still looks like an obvious trim....it almost looks like you can see a line on it that was drawn on it as a guide GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

I was wondering about the same thing. I just had some books graded, one came back restored (I knew it had something when I bought it, so I wasn't shocked) but I was thinking of telling them not to bother (since I read about doing that in the thread ) and Voila! It was shipped the next day. So there never would have been time.

 

The book referenced from the sales thread does look trimmed, that upper right corner looks impossible, but there is also that miswrap, which skews things.

[MetalPSI]

when i suspect trimming on a book I slip a backing board between the cover and first page. sometimes it sticks out like a sore thumb. to me the outside edge is a bit easier as the overlay of the pages is gone when they cut the book. just my

 

Thanks for this tidbit Good stuff to learn

[mschmidt]

Not to rehash that entire thread, but I believe someone confirmed with CGC directly that it was noted by them it was trimmed and then the customer stopped the grading process. I don't think it is really "heresay".

 

...it wasn't returned in the slab..... not even CGC would recognize it as valid. I agree with you on many of your concerns about the ethics involved in that case, but if someone sent me a raw book back and "claimed" CGC had graded it, I would be very skeptical....especially if I didn't know them. There is no way to definitively associate the book with the process without the slab..... GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a fiend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that CGC started the grading process, marked it as trimmed, and then refunded the grading costs and sent the book back. My understanding was once you sent the books in they graded them, unless you paid for prescreen service etc but even that costs extra and isn't for restoration checks etc.

 

Do they note "Trimmed" at the "Scheduled for grading" phase? I didn't think they did. The grades themselves aren't available until the "Shipped" phase, or that's my understanding. Once it gets that far, the book has been slabbed and I would be surprised if there is any way to get your grading fees back just because the book turned out to be trimmed.

 

They don't. I've never heard of this happening with CGC either - perhaps the book was sent to CCS and they were the ones confirming it was trimmed?