Disney+'s WandaVision (2020) 6 6

[fantastic_four]

41 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

This directly opposes the most popular WandaVision villain theory, which claims Mephisto, the Marvel universe's equivalent to the Devil, is actually behind Westview. This theory, however popular it is, doesn't hold up to the strictest scrutiny. One of Marvel's biggest markets, China, banned any media that "promotes cults or superstition." A depiction of the devil in a post-Satanic Panic world may mean Mephisto is off the table.

Nightmare as the big bad doesn't hold up to ANY scrutiny I can deduce, and that leak offered nothing at all to fill in what I can't find.  I was still open to the idea that they had inside information until the paragraph quoted above.  I certainly agree that China may not accept a devil-like character, but that doesn't mean Marvel can't create a version of Mephisto who is more generically evil with minimal references to the Faustian notions of Satan that passes China's standards.

That would be an improvement to the character for me anyway.  I never liked them bringing Mephistopheles into the comics and implicitly tying the character to any sort of Christian ideas, which is likely the reason that a country like China with a long history since the rise of Communism of banning and/or persecuting most religions aside from Buddhism wouldn't like it either.  China has eased up on their anti-religious stances over the last decade or two, so I don't know what they'd accept and what they wouldn't at this point.  They accepted Hela in Thor: Ragnarok who is pretty much Satan in the Norse religion, but that religion didn't gain any traction in China so it's likely that they didn't see it as a threat to inciting negative thoughts in China's Christian population.  If Disney minimizes the Satanic elements of Mephisto they should be able to get it through.

Edited February 18, 2021 by fantastic_four

[@therealsilvermane]

The Mephisto of Marvel Comics is not the Satan of the Holy Bible. He is simply an other-worldly character, though very powerful and very evil, who allows himself to be thought of as a Biblical demon for exploitation. Just like Thor and the Asgardians allowed themselves to be considered gods on Midgard but are really just other-worldly beings who live a long time.

[Bosco685]

 

[Bosco685]

1 hour ago, fantastic_four said:

Nightmare as the big bad doesn't hold up to ANY scrutiny I can deduce, and that leak offered nothing at all to fill in what I can't find.  I was still open to the idea that they had inside information until the paragraph quoted above.  I certainly agree that China may not accept a devil-like character, but that doesn't mean Marvel can't create a version of Mephisto who is more generically evil with minimal references to the Faustian notions of Satan that passes China's standards.

That would be an improvement to the character for me anyway.  I never liked them bringing Mephistopheles into the comics and implicitly tying the character to any sort of Christian ideas, which is likely the reason that a country like China with a long history since the rise of Communism of banning and/or persecuting most religions aside from Buddhism wouldn't like it either.  China has eased up on their anti-religious stances over the last decade or two, so I don't know what they'd accept and what they wouldn't at this point.  They accepted Hela in Thor: Ragnarok who is pretty much Satan in the Norse religion, but that religion didn't gain any traction in China so it's likely that they didn't see it as a threat to inciting negative thoughts in China's Christian population.  If Disney minimizes the Satanic elements of Mephisto they should be able to get it through.

 

22 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

The Mephisto of Marvel Comics is not the Satan of the Holy Bible. He is simply an other-worldly character, though very powerful and very evil, who allows himself to be thought of as a Biblical demon for exploitation. Just like Thor and the Asgardians allowed themselves to be considered gods on Midgard but are really just other-worldly beings who live a long time.

So you both think it is Mephisto? Wow. I would have never realized this.

[fantastic_four]

36 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

The Mephisto of Marvel Comics is not the Satan of the Holy Bible. He is simply an other-worldly character, though very powerful and very evil, who allows himself to be thought of as a Biblical demon for exploitation. Just like Thor and the Asgardians allowed themselves to be considered gods on Midgard but are really just other-worldly beings who live a long time.

The Bible says nothing about what Satan looks like or what Hell is like; later authors defined this, which is why I referred to "Faustian notions of Satan" since he was responsible for many of the elements we now associate with Satan.  Faust clearly was referring to the Bible, and Stan Lee definitely had both Satan and Faust's name for him of Mephistopheles in mind when he created the character as he explicitly confirmed multiple times.  People also assumed Silver Surfer must be inspired by Christ since Mephisto first appeared in his comic, but Lee has said he wasn't thinking about Christ at all when he wrote Silver Surfer.

What matters for China is that people don't think of the Christian notion of Satan when they see whatever Mephisto looks like, i.e. a red demon with horns and a trident.  Should be eminently possible.

Edited February 18, 2021 by fantastic_four

[@therealsilvermane]

11 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

 

So you both think it is Mephisto? Wow. I would have never realized this.

Everybody thinks it's Mephisto because that's what's in the comics, and it's what the show has been subtly referencing in every episode so far. If it's not Mephisto, it'll be one of the biggest head fakes in whatever-this-is history.

[@therealsilvermane]

6 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

The Bible says nothing about what Satan looks like or what Hell is like; later authors defined this, which is why I referred to "Faustian notions of Satan" since he was responsible for many of the elements we now associate with Satan.

Don't forget Dante Alighieri's Inferno.

[@therealsilvermane]

16 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

 

Weebey is Mephisto.

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

Just caught up on this thread over the last week. My hunches/guesses:

• I don't think High Evolutionary is the big bad, but I think that's who Herb will become. (Just as the dome is changing Monica, it's going to change some other people.) Feige is playing a long game with him.

• I think the dome might exist as its own pocket dimension accessible across the multiverse that is holding witches. Wanda has managed to break free of manipulation and assert some control herself. I think Dottie is Arcana and through her we'll learn of the existence of the Squadron Supreme (of which the 12-issue mini which would make the basis of an excellent series for Disney+).

• While Mephisto does appear to be the big bad, I'm skeptical like other that Disney is going to introduce the literal devil. But if they do, they should get Tom Hanks to play him.

• The one thing that I have no idea about, but I think is important, is who the television program in the show is meant to be for. The whole idea of it suggests Mojo's involvement, but there's a lot of road to travel before we would ever see him, I think.

• Not sure whether this will matter to WandaVision, or to Doctor Strange (if at all), but I got a bid on a lot of Defenders issues that had been available for years. Unimportant issues, but I did see that one of them (92) contains the first manifestation of Eternity as a being that exists across the multiverse, and then noticed a few others of those had been scooped up on eBay yesterday.

[Bosco685]

10 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Weebey is Mephisto.

[Bosco685]

 

[bpc3qh]

That clip is delightful; captures the tone of Modern Family et. al. pretty well. Also interesting that it seems to suggest Wanda is feeling some level of guilt (also shown in her convo with Pietro last episode), which may turn into a significant issue later on.

[jcjames]

There's currently a Disney kid's show about demons and the witches on right now "Owl House". They've done Chernabog and Hades and many other "hellish" characters in movies. Can't really see them being unable to make Mephisto into a marketable big baddie... if they wanted to. It might be Mephisto, it might be Nightmare, it might be Ultron again (ugh), it might be many others already guessed at in this thread. Who knows who the bigbad will turn out to be, but saying China will steer the decision to make any form of Mephisto unattainable is a real stretch, and a slam at the creativity of Disney's team.

Edited February 18, 2021 by jcjames

[fantastic_four]

49 minutes ago, jcjames said:

There's currently a Disney kid's show about demons and the witches on right now "Owl House". They've done Chernabog and Hades and many other "hellish" characters in movies.

When I went looking for devil-like Disney characters a few days ago every one I found was prior to around 1940 to 1950.  Chernabog was in Fantasia from 1940, and the devil versions of Pluto were well before 1940.  Mao Zedong is who re-started the persecution of Christians, created the Communist party, and ushered in the era of censorship that Disney now wants to avoid, and that didn't fully kick in until the 1940s to 1950s.  I'm not sure when Disney went fully global or got their first work banned in China, but I'm guessing it was in that timeframe and that's why all I can find are characters that are only vaguely being tied to religion in Disney's works after Mao and the Communist party came to power.

I think the issue is purely the association with religion.  I'm unfamiliar with Owl House but just googled some pictures of demons from it.  I can't tie demons like the one below specifically to any given religion, so I wouldn't be surprised if China accepted them--although I have no idea if they air this show there or generally what airs in China in terms of television.  I do know that Disney Plus isn't currently available in China, but I'm sure Disney wants it there eventually so they wouldn't approve characters they thought China would be likely to censor.

Edited February 18, 2021 by fantastic_four

[bpc3qh]

I think people are overthinking the China problem re: Mephisto. There's no reason he can't just be a supernatural power, similar to Dormamu. It was always unlikely he was going to have horns, for example; most likely I'd expect a human appearance like how Old Scratch appears in the Devil and Tom Walker and The Devil and Daniel Webster.

Edited February 18, 2021 by bpc3qh

[fantastic_four]

43 minutes ago, bpc3qh said:

It was always unlikely he was going to have horns, for example;

I don't even see stereotypical Satanic elements in his first appearance drawn below by Buscema, so even from the start the character was only half-tied to elements we currently associate with Satan.  They kept the red skin and demonic appearance but ditched the horns, pitchfork, and hooves, plus shortened the name Mephistopheles to Mephisto.

Edited February 18, 2021 by fantastic_four

[AJLewandoski]

So I figured since we're pitching every possibility in the entire multiverse, I'd let this slip here. It's obviously not going to happen, but I thought it was a bit of interesting continuity to bring up. In the West Coast Avengers one of the story lines that directly ties into some of the events of Wandavision it's revealed that Vision is actually made from this original Human Torchs body. It occurred to me that the body of the original Human Torch Jim Hammond was shown in a tube in Captain America: The First Avenger during the World's Fair sequence. So perhaps this synthetic humanoid body from CA:TFA has been lying dormant somewhere since the World's Fair giving us an out and a new shell to place Visions conciousness into once this all over if Vision simply can't exist outside the Hex, or perhaps a sequel series to the effect of Vision Quest where Wanda is searching for the body/parts as a more moral way of bringing Vision back. Something to think about 

[Bosco685]

5 minutes ago, AJLewandoski said:

So I figured since we're pitching every possibility in the entire multiverse, I'd let this slip here. It's obviously not going to happen, but I thought it was a bit of interesting continuity to bring up. In the West Coast Avengers one of the story lines that directly ties into some of the events of Wandavision it's revealed that Vision is actually made from this original Human Torchs body. It occurred to me that the body of the original Human Torch Jim Hammond was shown in a tube in Captain America: The First Avenger during the World's Fair sequence. So perhaps this synthetic humanoid body from CA:TFA has been lying dormant somewhere since the World's Fair giving us an out and a new shell to place Visions conciousness into once this all over if Vision simply can't exist outside the Hex, or perhaps a sequel series to the effect of Vision Quest where Wanda is searching for the body/parts as a more moral way of bringing Vision back. Something to think about 

I always wondered where that scene was heading and was it going to come up again. It got enough screen time to be relevant to some concept being tossed around.

[F For Fake]

Ok, I'm caught up on the thread now! My predictions on the big bad, the secret guest star, and "the engineer"

1. The answer is going to be much less interesting than anyone here seems to think.

2. Same

3. Ditto

Seriously, it's fun to read fan theories on this stuff, but these movies and shows never end up being as interesting as the crazy stuff a bunch of obsessed nerds can come up.

So, I just enjoy the ride.

For instance, my only real question: will they find another cute little outfit (ala the Magician's Assistant costume, and the Scarlet Witch uniform) to stuff Ms. Olsen into? Otherwise, I don't really care what happens. I'm enjoying it all the same.

[bentbryan]

((speculation intensifies))