MCU's SPIDER-MAN: NO WAY HOME (2021?) 7 7

[kav]

On 1/10/2022 at 4:50 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Again, to say that No Way Home's 1.3 billion and counting is not because it not only brought back Tobey Maguire, Andrew Garfield, Willem Dafoe et al but brought them into the MCU is to ignore reality.

Are you saying if it did that, but the -script was poor, it would have had the same box office?

[@therealsilvermane]

On 1/10/2022 at 7:52 PM, kav said:

Are you saying if it did that, but the --script was poor, it would have had the same box office?

No Way Home's screenplay isn't winning any awards. Its goodwill is due almost 80% because of its ultimate fan service. So Peter's Spiderverse predicament is brought about because Peter keeps interrupting Dr. Strange's spell like some incessant little kid? Peter Parker really outduels Strange in his own lair and traps him for almost the entire movie? And steals his sling ring? Ned is able to easily form a portal with the sling ring when we saw the Sorcerer Supreme struggle with it in Strange's first movie?  And the whole raison d'etre for Peter doing this to begin with was just so MJ and Ned could get into MIT? If the ultimate result of all this wasn't to get Tobey, Andrew, and Tom swinging together in the same shot I would have said that No Way Home might have been the dumbest thing I'd ever seen.

[kav]

On 1/10/2022 at 5:00 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

No Way Home's screenplay isn't winning any awards. Its goodwill is due almost 80% because of its ultimate fan service. So Peter's Spiderverse predicament is brought about because Peter keeps interrupting Dr. Strange's spell like some incessant little kid? Peter Parker really outduels Strange in his own lair and traps him for almost the entire movie? And steals his sling ring? Ned is able to easily form a portal with the sling ring when we saw the Sorcerer Supreme struggle with it in Strange's first movie?  And the whole raison d'etre for Peter doing this to begin with was just so MJ and Ned could get into MIT? If the ultimate result of all this wasn't to get Tobey, Andrew, and Tom swinging together in the same shot I would have said that No Way Home might have been the dumbest thing I'd ever seen.

 So youre saying NWH script was poor, but Eternals and shang chi script was top notch?

[@therealsilvermane]

On 1/10/2022 at 8:06 PM, kav said:

 So youre saying NWH script was poor, but Eternals and shang chi script was top notch?

Nothing can match Tobey, Andrew, and Tom's Spider-Mans swinging together and teaming up in the lab to figure out how to save their respective villains and just interacting. It probably surpasses what the MCU did with the first Avengers movie as those characters were designed to cross-over. We've never seen anything like No Way Home and that crossing over of Spidey's different franchises is why it's such a magical time at the movies. Its setup, however, and protagonist's journey isn't necessarily the best thing that Marvel Studios has done IMO.

In my opinion, Shang Chi had a better character story. And as somebody who appreciates how films use metaphor to get to a higher artistic plane, Eternals is so far the only MCU film to be about something other than being a super-hero or a family of super-heroes. Eternals is a film about our shared humanity and what it means to be human as seen through the eyes of the Eternals who have seen civilization grow for thousands of years. 

I spoke with someone recently who saw No Way Home but who also wasn't invested in the MCU and had seen most, not all, of the past Spider-Man movies once or twice each depending. He/she said they weren't really sure what was going on with the movie but once Tobey and Andrew showed up it was awesome.

Don't get me wrong. I loved No Way Home. But I loved it because it was a Spiderverse movie and had Tobey, Andrew, and Tom teaming up against their (almost) Sinister Six. The ending was really really sad though.

Edited January 11, 2022 by @therealsilvermane

[kav]

On 1/10/2022 at 5:25 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Nothing can match Tobey, Andrew, and Tom's Spider-Mans swinging together and teaming up in the lab to figure out how to save their respective villains and just interacting. It probably surpasses what the MCU did with the first Avengers movie as those characters were designed to cross-over. We've never seen anything like No Way Home and that crossing over of Spidey's different franchises is why it's such a magical time at the movies. Its setup, however, and protagonist's journey isn't necessarily the best thing that Marvel Studios has done IMO.

In my opinion, Shang Chi had a better character story. And as somebody who appreciates how films use metaphor to get to a higher artistic plane, Eternals is so far the only MCU film to be about something other than being a super-hero or a family of super-heroes. Eternals is a film about our shared humanity and what it means to be human as seen through the eyes of the Eternals who have seen civilization grow for thousands of years. 

I spoke with someone recently who saw No Way Home but who also wasn't invested in the MCU and had seen most, not all, of the past Spider-Man movies once or twice each depending. He/she said they weren't really sure what was going on with the movie but once Tobey and Andrew showed up it was awesome.

Don't get me wrong. I loved No Way Home. But I loved it because it was a Spiderverse movie and had Tobey, Andrew, and Tom teaming up against their (almost) Sinister Six. The ending was really really sad though.

I guess youre saying the scripts for eternals and shang chi was great.  As a reader of pretty much every screenplay book in print-several times, and an avid analyst of story structure, all I can say is I disagree like crazy.

[kav]

I also disagree that a film can become a blockbuster solely based on who you put in it.  This has been repeatedly proven to be completely false.

[Finhead]

On 1/10/2022 at 5:50 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

 

 

Again, to say that No Way Home's 1.3 billion and counting .

At least get one fact right on this, 1.53 Billion and counting.

[Bosco685]

On 1/10/2022 at 10:04 PM, Finhead said:

At least get one fact right on this, 1.53 Billion and counting.

As he has noted before:

"I thoroughly research a topic before posting [until I don't]!"

[Bosco685]

"The silence is deafening!"

[@therealsilvermane]

On 1/10/2022 at 10:04 PM, Finhead said:

At least get one fact right on this, 1.53 Billion and counting.

"1.3 billion and counting" is still a mathematically correct statement even if NWH makes 2 billion.

TBH, I thought The Last Jedi numbers posted on the previous page were NWH's numbers. I don't salivate over box office numbers every minute of the day the way some folks seem to. I have enough trouble with my own finances much less somebody else's. I'm just here to enjoy the movies or not.

Here's a statement you can fact check: If Spider-Man No Way Home had been the biggest internet fan-troll reverse fakeout in movie marketing history and Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield never showed up in the movie, fans might be camped outside Kevin Feige and Amy Pascal's gates with torches and proclaiming it ten times the movie travesty that The Last Jedi was.

[D2]

On 1/11/2022 at 9:58 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

"1.3 billion and counting" is still a mathematically correct statement even if NWH makes 2 billion.

TBH, I thought The Last Jedi numbers posted on the previous page were NWH's numbers. I don't salivate over box office numbers every minute of the day the way some folks seem to. I have enough trouble with my own finances much less somebody else's. I'm just here to enjoy the movies or not.

Here's a statement you can fact check: If Spider-Man No Way Home had been the biggest internet fan-troll reverse fakeout in movie marketing history and Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield never showed up in the movie, fans might be camped outside Kevin Feige and Amy Pascal's gates with torches and proclaiming it ten times the movie travesty that The Last Jedi was.

It’s okay that this movie didn’t live up to whatever bar you hold it to.

The rest of us are just really happy that a great quality Spider-Man trilogy now exists. 
 

So go and rewatch Shang Chi, with your weirdly disconnected and brain dead 3rd act, and I will rewatch NWH and embrace a brilliant tie up of a beloved franchise. 

[@therealsilvermane]

On 1/11/2022 at 8:28 AM, D2 said:

It’s okay that this movie didn’t live up to whatever bar you hold it to.

The rest of us are just really happy that a great quality Spider-Man trilogy now exists. 
 

So go and rewatch Shang Chi, with your weirdly disconnected and brain dead 3rd act, and I will rewatch NWH and embrace a brilliant tie up of a beloved franchise. 

I'm actually taking NWH down a couple of notches from the very high pedestal that Kav and others here are putting the film on in comparison to other MCU films. I'm not holding up NWH to any kind of high bar at all. I loved NWH and am actually going to see it a second time today, but I also recognize it's not a flawless film. NWH was full of easy plot conveniences like Spider-Man outdueling Dr Strange in his own mirror dimension just so the movie could put away Strange for a while or Ned easily creating a portal with a sling ring just so we could get the intros for Tobey and Andrew over with. I was able to check my brain at the door and let these easy plot elements slide as long as I got a meaningful Tobey, Andrew, and Tom team-up and we all got that. 

Btw, Shang-Chi's third act wasn't disconnected at all IMO. It was set up by the intro to Wenwu's history, his search for the magical mystical city of Ta-Lo and finding an outpost instead and Shang-Chi's mother, the mystery of the Ten Rings bracelets, the dragon postcard that Wenwu sent to each of his children, the magical dragon statue that Shang-Chi's mother built, and various other small story elements that all lead towards a showdown in the magical mystical city of Ta-Lo that Wenwu was searching for in the beginning. In addition, the Dweller in Darkness and its origins may very well tie in to the Multiverse of Madness and beyond as that character is tied to Doctor Strange.

[D2]

On 1/11/2022 at 11:07 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

I'm actually taking NWH down a couple of notches from the very high pedestal that Kav and others here are putting the film on in comparison to other MCU films. I'm not holding up NWH to any kind of high bar at all. I loved NWH and am actually going to see it a second time today, but I also recognize it's not a flawless film. NWH was full of easy plot conveniences like Spider-Man outdueling Dr Strange in his own mirror dimension just so the movie could put away Strange for a while or Ned easily creating a portal with a sling ring just so we could get the intros for Tobey and Andrew over with. I was able to check my brain at the door and let these easy plot elements slide as long as I got a meaningful Tobey, Andrew, and Tom team-up and we all got that. 

Btw, Shang-Chi's third act wasn't disconnected at all IMO. It was set up by the intro to Wenwu's history, his search for the magical mystical city of Ta-Lo and finding an outpost instead and Shang-Chi's mother, the mystery of the Ten Rings bracelets, the dragon postcard that Wenwu sent to each of his children, the magical dragon statue that Shang-Chi's mother built, and various other small story elements that all lead towards a showdown in the magical mystical city of Ta-Lo that Wenwu was searching for in the beginning. In addition, the Dweller in Darkness and its origins may very well tie in to the Multiverse of Madness and beyond as that character is tied to Doctor Strange.

Fair assessment. 
 

You are right. NWH was not perfect. 
 

But I will try and bring another perspective. 
Regardless of its holes and leaps of faith (I entirely agree how Dr. Strange was sidelined, mainly because he is so OP), NWH had one thing most movies do not. 
 

NWH has soul. At every step of the way, the audience was emotionally invested. 
 

That is the only point. 
 

Shang Chi may have had relevance to its third act, but when you need to explain away the significance, no one cares. 
 

It lacked soul. It did. That movie did not connect emotionally, anywhere near how impactful NWH is. 
 

My point is, as I’m sure you have a similar experience, where I have consumed more media and entertainment than I would ever want to admit to. The one takeaway I have from all of that? 
 

Nothing is perfect. Everything has holes. There will always be flaws. But material that can make me give a *** from beginning to end?

That’s rare. And should be celebrated. 

Edited January 11, 2022 by D2

[theCapraAegagrus]

Spider-Man's genius intellect observing that the mirror dimension is based on geometry is not plot convenience, but I agree that Ned being able to use the Sling Ring is.

'Knock the movie down a few pegs' all you want; It wipes the floor with the rest of Phase Bore (so far) no matter what logical fallacies you wish to deploy as cover for Marvel Studios' 2021 stinkers.

[@therealsilvermane]

On 1/11/2022 at 9:14 AM, D2 said:

Fair assessment. 

You are right. NWH was not perfect. 

But I will try and bring another perspective. 
Regardless of its holes and leaps of faith (I entirely agree how Dr. Strange was sidelined, mainly because he is so OP), NWH had one thing most movies do not. 

NWH has soul. At every step of the way, the audience was emotionally invested. 

That is the only point. 

Shang Chi may have had relevance to its third act, but when you need to explain away the significance, no one cares. 

It lacked soul. It did. That movie did not connect emotionally, anywhere near how impactful NWH is. 

My point is, as I’m sure you have a similar experience, where I have consumed more media and entertainment than I would ever want to admit to. The one takeaway I have from all of that? 

Nothing is perfect. Everything has holes. There will always be flaws. But material that can make me give a *** from beginning to end?

That’s rare. And should be celebrated. 

I agree that No Way Home was an awesome movie experience. But just because it was a great time at the movies doesn't mean folks have to use it as a way to beat down the smaller MCU movies and the heroes in them that are just getting started in the MCU.

Peter Parker's story is maybe the most dramatic story in Marvel Comics. That's one reason why Spider-Man has been so popular over the ages. The movies should reflect that and I think No Way Home did.

But again to use that success as a way to beat down other heroes trying to get a leg in the MCU is kinda dubious IMO. Over Christmas, I sent a $100 movie gift card to a relative and told the relative this gift is to take the family and go see Spider-Man. They did. The relative and family loved it. However, that same relative who sees life a little on the right proceeded to talk about how they loved the movie on Facebook and posted a dubious news article stating how No Way Home's big weekend in comparison to a movie like Eternals is proof that audiences don't want diversity or something like that. It made me kind of regret giving that gift to the relative.

I don't think Shang-Chi's third act needed explaining. A lot of people enjoyed Shang-Chi and count it among their favorite MCU films. I just explained it to you because you said the third act was disconnected from the rest of the movie. 

I also thought Shang-Chi had soul. Sure, it wasn't as tear jerkery as No Way Home, but what Marvel movie is as tearjerkery as Peter Parker's most tragic moments? I thought when Wenwu passes the Ten Rings to his son Shang-Chi, that it was a real poignant family moment. Past MCU movies that dealt with bad dads just kept the dad bad with no redeeming moment with the hero child ie GOTG2 or Avengers Endgame. Shang and Katy's best friend relationship also rang true to me.

[D2]

On 1/11/2022 at 11:46 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

I agree that No Way Home was an awesome movie experience. But just because it was a great time at the movies doesn't mean folks have to use it as a way to beat down the smaller MCU movies and the heroes in them that are just getting started in the MCU.

Peter Parker's story is maybe the most dramatic story in Marvel Comics. That's one reason why Spider-Man has been so popular over the ages. The movies should reflect that and I think No Way Home did.

But again to use that success as a way to beat down other heroes trying to get a leg in the MCU is kinda dubious IMO. Over Christmas, I sent a $100 movie gift card to a relative and told the relative this gift is to take the family and go see Spider-Man. They did. The relative and family loved it. However, that same relative who sees life a little on the right proceeded to talk about how they loved the movie on Facebook and posted a dubious news article stating how No Way Home's big weekend in comparison to a movie like Eternals is proof that audiences don't want diversity or something like that. It made me kind of regret giving that gift to the relative.

I don't think Shang-Chi's third act needed explaining. A lot of people enjoyed Shang-Chi and count it among their favorite MCU films. I just explained it to you because you said the third act was disconnected from the rest of the movie. 

I also thought Shang-Chi had soul. Sure, it wasn't as tear jerkery as No Way Home, but what Marvel movie is as tearjerkery as Peter Parker's most tragic moments? I thought when Wenwu passes the Ten Rings to his son Shang-Chi, that it was a real poignant family moment. Past MCU movies that dealt with bad dads just kept the dad bad with no redeeming moment with the hero child ie GOTG2 or Avengers Endgame. Shang and Katy's best friend relationship also rang true to me.

Well,

you are right, Peter Parker’s story is one for the ages. 
 

But to get people to continue to care?

That’s another thing. 
 

I think you are truly downplaying the significance of NWH. 
 

Listen, it’s not my favourite movie, not by a long shot. 
 

The only reason why I am so adamant and being an advocate for this movie is for 1 reason, and it emphasizes my point to you. 
 

It made me give a **** about Spider-Man again, and the movie franchises. 
 

You say Spider-Man’s tale is timeless and made for people to care?

I say I am sick and tired of it. Spider-Man bored me, and the last thing I ever wanted to bother seeing was another Spider-Man movie. Nooooo thanks. Enough is enough. 
 

And yet, here we are, and I am on the other side of the fence, advocating for how well it did to connect to its audience. 
 

Bravo I say. Bravo. 
 

This has nothing to do with diversity, or an independent film, or the first of a series…

 

It’s about connecting to the audience. 
 

NWH nailed it. 

[Bosco685]

MCU franchise films #24, 25 and 26 and we are still playing the "But these are just starting out so even if they were success they did this on their own" game?

[Bosco685]

 

[Finhead]

On 1/11/2022 at 5:58 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

"1.3 billion and counting" is still a mathematically correct statement even if NWH makes 2 billion.

TBH, I thought The Last Jedi numbers posted on the previous page were NWH's numbers. I don't salivate over box office numbers every minute of the day the way some folks seem to. I have enough trouble with my own finances much less somebody else's. I'm just here to enjoy the movies or not.

Here's a statement you can fact check: If Spider-Man No Way Home had been the biggest internet fan-troll reverse fakeout in movie marketing history and Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield never showed up in the movie, fans might be camped outside Kevin Feige and Amy Pascal's gates with torches and proclaiming it ten times the movie travesty that The Last Jedi was.

Whatever works for your narrative. And you seem fine throwing out BO numbers when your trying to defend that turd Captain Marvel, but again change it up when it's not working for your argument. I would expect nothing less.

[@therealsilvermane]

On 1/11/2022 at 9:28 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Spider-Man's genius intellect observing that the mirror dimension is based on geometry is not plot convenience, but I agree that Ned being able to use the Sling Ring is.

Spidey trapping Dr Strange in his own mirror dimension with a couple of webs is absolutely a plot convenience. We've seen Dr Strange do nearly the impossible in both Infinity War and Endgame and he has trouble with Peter's glorified fishing string in Strange's home turf? As I said, I didn't have a problem with it. I just checked the "okay" box as the MCU is full of these easy plot conveniences that move the story along to get to the stuff we really want to see, in this case, seeing Tobey Andrew and Tom swinging above NYC like some red black and blue Macy's Day sausage parade.